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HIP 55 being tested on testnet-explorer.helium.com
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# HIP 55: Validator Challenges - Author(s): @professor , @hashc0de, @mack - Start Date: 2022-02-03 - Category: Technical - Original HIP PR: https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/359 - Tracking Issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/362 - Status: In Discussion # Summary [summary]: #summary This HIP proposes a change to how Proof-of-Coverage (PoC) Challenges are generated and submitted to the Helium blockchain to allow for further network scalability and to lower the hardware complexity/cost of Hotspots. Specifically, it moves the responsibility of PoC Challenge creation to Validators and consequently proposes moving the economic reward for creating Challenges to this group as well. # Rendered view https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0055-validator-challenges.md (edited)
Author(s): @Vagabond, @andymck, @abhay Start Date: 2022-02-03 Category: Technical Original HIP PR: #359 Tracking Issue: #362 (this) Status: In Discussion Summary This HIP proposes a change to how P...
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so If I'm reading this correctly it would be moving 0.9% more of the rewards to the validators?
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BadGuyTy
so If I'm reading this correctly it would be moving 0.9% more of the rewards to the validators?
Yes for doing the challenge creation portion of the PoC (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 pinned a message to this channel. 02/14/2022 7:40 AM
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I have no problems with the validators doing the challenges but I do have issues with the further reduction of possible rewards to hotspot owners. We already lost the consensus rewards possibilities and now challenges?
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BadGuyTy
I have no problems with the validators doing the challenges but I do have issues with the further reduction of possible rewards to hotspot owners. We already lost the consensus rewards possibilities and now challenges?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:41 AM
Just take a look how much the last challenge creation rewarded you. This is a small price for not having to deal with relayed hotspots anymore (edited)
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3 cents is 3 cents (didn't actually check that value) (edited)
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So how much would we loose with this hip
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In my opinion all work done needs to be rewarded. You can't move work over to validators and expect them to do it for free. If that was the case they'd simply block those ports and have fun not getting any PoC... but that could be too cynical
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secretboy
So how much would we loose with this hip
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:45 AM
Approx this 3x per day (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Approx this 3x per day (edited)
So no more of those rewards if i understood you correctly?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Approx this 3x per day (edited)
it's actually x 1.5 as only 50% of challenges are accepted currently
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secretboy
So no more of those rewards if i understood you correctly?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:46 AM
Yep
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0.9% split across hotspots who have created challenges within an epoch. today that's roughly 30 blocks so about 30k hotspots today. that # goes up as the number of hotspots on chain goes up.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yep
Eh those are the lowest rewards but what do we benefit from this?
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it's all about tradeoffs. - no relayed hotspots / port forwarding - scalability to millions of hotspots - no syncing - reduced sd card write wear issues - better chance of actually delivering your witness receipts so potentially more participation in poc downside - but my ubi (universal basic income, for those not familiar with the acronym) (edited)
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secretboy
Eh those are the lowest rewards but what do we benefit from this?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:47 AM
Network stability and no more relayed hotspots (edited)
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So what bout the rewards will we see a increase on that?
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This will result in my lone wolf getting 0 rewards and I'm for this HIP.. but I get it rewards are rewards.
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secretboy
So what bout the rewards will we see a increase on that?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:48 AM
Rn, half the PoC is going through, I hope we can expect 90% or close to 95 after this HIP (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Rn, half the PoC is going through, I hope we can expect 90% or close to 95 after this HIP (edited)
So more rewards then?
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Also for what it's worth, it's not likely to increase people rewards. Just an overall better and healthier network. Because if everyone is getting and seeing more PoC the rewards will be split into smaller pieces since the size of the pie isn't changing. Now, would this mean you should see more stable rewards, yes. More rewards, not necessarily
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secretboy
So what bout the rewards will we see a increase on that?
yes and no and depends. yes if your hotspot is relayed, no you will lose the challenge rewards, depends if you are not relayed than you will also lose rewards as the relayed hs will be getting more
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secretboy
So more rewards then?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:50 AM
Well, thats not how it works. But if we simplify alot, yes
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hashc0de
it's all about tradeoffs. - no relayed hotspots / port forwarding - scalability to millions of hotspots - no syncing - reduced sd card write wear issues - better chance of actually delivering your witness receipts so potentially more participation in poc downside - but my ubi (universal basic income, for those not familiar with the acronym) (edited)
Also no syncing, sd card issues, port forwarding, etc
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Eh decent just hope that i dont loose more with this hip
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so isn't this the same as light hotspots?
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@hashc0de was there consideration given to having the CG assign other online validators to perform the PoC work? like when proposing a list of hotspot keys, also including the a randomly selected online validator to perform the challenge work? that way, the rest of the validator group is doing something rather than sitting idle and just adding more work to the same validators that are in CG?
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BadGuyTy
so isn't this the same as light hotspots?
It’s one of the components needed for light hotspots to function
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Yea, more plug and play. No hidden fees. Jim Carrey (cable guy) would be upset
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PaulM
@hashc0de was there consideration given to having the CG assign other online validators to perform the PoC work? like when proposing a list of hotspot keys, also including the a randomly selected online validator to perform the challenge work? that way, the rest of the validator group is doing something rather than sitting idle and just adding more work to the same validators that are in CG?
have a look at the HIP. actually mentioned in there 🙂
07:52
it's definitely an idea we like. increased engineering scope at this time though.
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I can also imagine this will massively reduce chain bloat by not giving dust to hundreds of thousands of hotspots in reward transactions
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hashc0de
have a look at the HIP. actually mentioned in there 🙂
dang. i need to read better
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rawrmaan
I can also imagine this will massively reduce chain bloat by not giving dust to hundreds of thousands of hotspots in reward transactions
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/14/2022 7:53 AM
hopefully before we reach a million
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rawrmaan
I can also imagine this will massively reduce chain bloat by not giving dust to hundreds of thousands of hotspots in reward transactions
it's not immaterial but not an explicit problem today. 10s of thousands per epoch.
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So if network is more stable will we see a increase in witnesses and beacons because they were lowered earlier this month?
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secretboy
So if network is more stable will we see a increase in witnesses and beacons because they were lowered earlier this month?
if you have a look at the hip, it specifies that there will only be a fixed set of challenges per block. and that can be adjusted if validators are able to handle more transactions per block. TBD.
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secretboy
So if network is more stable will we see a increase in witnesses and beacons because they were lowered earlier this month?
I’d say it’s more like: more hotspots will beacon and witness consistently. Right now beaconing is highly dependent on how well the p2p network works, and witnessing fails about 30-50% of the time due to p2p issues
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but also ^
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capcom
I’d say it’s more like: more hotspots will beacon and witness consistently. Right now beaconing is highly dependent on how well the p2p network works, and witnessing fails about 30-50% of the time due to p2p issues
So we can expect a little increase?
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No clue. But things should work as they should and be less inconsistent
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PaulM
dang. i need to read better
Quick question on this line of thought, what about the validators in CG? Would they also need to perform challenge creations while in to the hotspots they are connected to? I think so, just curious on what it'd mean for the group. P.S - I tagged you Paul because if you've seen some "adverse affects" with connections and CG already (edited)
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Yeah, that was my line of thinking - trying to minimize the incremental work and incoming connections for the CG
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crazyhonybadger 02/14/2022 7:58 AM
If this is something required for light hotspots is this something that is currently being tested on the testnet?
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Anthonyra
Quick question on this line of thought, what about the validators in CG? Would they also need to perform challenge creations while in to the hotspots they are connected to? I think so, just curious on what it'd mean for the group. P.S - I tagged you Paul because if you've seen some "adverse affects" with connections and CG already (edited)
recall the 2 roles in the hip: 1. CG members create ephemeral keys and write to the chain 2. All validators serve as gateway services (read-only RPC) Group 1 will be also responsible for creating receipts transactions, receiving witness and challengee receipts (edited)
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crazyhonybadger
If this is something required for light hotspots is this something that is currently being tested on the testnet?
Yup see #announcements
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we have real hardware doing this on the testnet as of friday i think. we've been using virtual hotspots for a few weeks now
07:59
HIPs come with code. 🙂
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If I'm reading correctly, all hotspots in an H3 that is selected for PoC will send a request to the Challenge Validator (possible still a CG member) asking is they are the target? is this going to flood the CG with requests?
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hashc0de
recall the 2 roles in the hip: 1. CG members create ephemeral keys and write to the chain 2. All validators serve as gateway services (read-only RPC) Group 1 will be also responsible for creating receipts transactions, receiving witness and challengee receipts (edited)
I guess, I shouldn't ask it as a question but more as a concern. Because it does say whether they are in consensus or not will create challenges based on the blocks metadata and challenge those hotspots that are clients of it. I'm curious if CG should be excluded from creating challenges and collecting receipts while in?
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Anthonyra
I guess, I shouldn't ask it as a question but more as a concern. Because it does say whether they are in consensus or not will create challenges based on the blocks metadata and challenge those hotspots that are clients of it. I'm curious if CG should be excluded from creating challenges and collecting receipts while in?
Specifically it is the CG that creates ephemeral keys. The interesting part of the design is that it can just be added as block metadata and doesn't need to be part of the transaction budget per block.
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Correct, and maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. But, like Paul said above. All validators will see that block and based on their client list ping the hotspots in the H3 hex that's a target. It's mentioned that hotspots could be randomly distributed or delegated to a specific validator (which is a good idea in my opinion) but we see connection issues already in CG with PoC receipts and the like. If that validator has a lot of clients in the hex would it cause issues?
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depending on how long the poc_timeout is, however, that CG member may no longer be in consensus and still be serving as the Challenger.
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we are talking about targeting at H3 res5, right? that could be a thousand hotspots, multiplied by however many challenges generated per Challenge Validator? sounds like a lot of requests being sent to CG members
08:15
also, what incentive is there for validators to run the gateway service when not in CG?
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none with the implementation we have so far. but attestations could be used as a metric for validator affinity / delegation in the future.
08:29
since all lookup responses are signed, they can be used to penalize lying validators and potentially bless useful validators. we haven't scoped it yet but open to exploration (penalty adjustments, election weighting, etc.) (edited)
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I'm not sure I fully understand this. Could I just keep the port closed and ignore the extra work?
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you could!
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What's the incentive not to do that?
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potential rewards (when creating challenge keys while in the CG) (edited)
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is there an estimated time for release?
08:34
when will regular hotspots become light hotspots?
08:35
I think the last timeline was Q4 2021
08:35
🙂
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This HIP is part of the process. Latest roadmap for LH will always be here: https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots
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It sounds to me, like some of us would actually get more rewards due to this HIP, when you factor in down time lost to syncing. Since we have containerized miners now, it might not be as big of an impact. But I'll say I've lost many days over the last few months due to syncing, so it sounds like a win overall from my perspective.
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manicadam
It sounds to me, like some of us would actually get more rewards due to this HIP, when you factor in down time lost to syncing. Since we have containerized miners now, it might not be as big of an impact. But I'll say I've lost many days over the last few months due to syncing, so it sounds like a win overall from my perspective.
Not if everyone else having the same issues as you now don't have those issues. It'll result in more stable and predictable rewards though
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getting to "stable and predictable" is 100% a goal of this hip.
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firsthummus 02/14/2022 9:08 AM
what is meant by "the target validator(s) [to which a hotspots are connected via a durable gRPC connection] could be random or specified"? the hotspot owner could pick the validator to connect to? i think random might be better (wondering if a security question could arise if a source builder pointed hotspots to their own validators to rubber stamp)
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It can be configured. would love to understand your security concerns around a colluding validator, though. The validator creating the challenge is not necessarily the one that is providing read access to blockchain data. All responses from the latter validator are signed / attested by the validator as well. (edited)
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firsthummus 02/14/2022 9:33 AM
will do my best here. just trying to figure out how to think about mitigating gaming the system. from your response, this concept may be impractical. nonetheless, my thought was that if you have a validator (or, as it sounds like, multiple validators) and hotspot(s) acting in concert, you could generate challenges and then approve the results from your favored hotspots. all other hotspot PoC challenges would be handled normally, but if you control the source validator (and it happens to select one of your hotspots for a challenge), you could approve it regardless of actual coverage. still trying to wrap my head around H3Dex and HIP 55, so this may be impossible. or irrelevantly-infrequent.
09:39
risk would be the slashing concept described. may also need control of a geographical area without honest hotspots or otherwise risk contradictory assertions.
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firsthummus
will do my best here. just trying to figure out how to think about mitigating gaming the system. from your response, this concept may be impractical. nonetheless, my thought was that if you have a validator (or, as it sounds like, multiple validators) and hotspot(s) acting in concert, you could generate challenges and then approve the results from your favored hotspots. all other hotspot PoC challenges would be handled normally, but if you control the source validator (and it happens to select one of your hotspots for a challenge), you could approve it regardless of actual coverage. still trying to wrap my head around H3Dex and HIP 55, so this may be impossible. or irrelevantly-infrequent.
I think that's the right line of thinking. But some additional thoughts: 1. You need to be in consensus to start generating ephemeral keys. those keys are tied to you as a validator. that key (public key + block hash) generates an h3 zone and you select a particular hotspot in that zone. only you as the validator know which hotspot in that zone is being challenged (but it must be within that zone). 2. Any validator can provide data on chain about a h3 zone that's current being challenged. they use the emphemeral public key + block hash to generate a random h3 zone for selection like the challenging validator does. 3. all hotspots within the h3 zone are told by their favorite validator (configuration, local list of "safe" validators, random selection, etc.) that they could potentially be challenged and are provided the routing (pubkey, ip address, port, etc.) of the challenging validator so the risks you mentioned i think boil down to this as a hotspot owner who wants to game the system: - you need to have validators in consensus to generate keys and only generate keys in the zone your hotspots live. - you potentially need to have have colluding validators who tell you your zone is being challenged. - your colluding cg validator needs to return an onion to you
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I've got an overall concern that I guess is more about light hotspots and long-living gRPC connections rather than this HIP specifically, but I guess I'll ask here (let me know if I should move this somewhere else): I think the dev team and validator operators need to carefully think thru the problems around having many simultaneous active connections. We've run into kernel and system limits in the past and mostly worked through them as we found them, but if we expect validators to have 1-2 active connections, we should think about other systems that have been tuned to that kind of workload and do that preemptively. (edited)
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There's also the spam issue. I know Solana is working on a switch from UDP to QUIC right now due to spammers being able to easily spoof IPs. These are definitely "high-scale" problems but there's no question that validators will need to be able to defend themselves from DoS-like activity
15:02
I guess it's pretty easy to have the gateway sign at the beginning of a connection and block any IPs that don't have a signature from a known gateway/limit the amount of new connections per gateway per time period
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Since the requests are over gRPC, and not a custom protocol over libp2p, we can take advantage of the 25+ years of scaling web servers, caching, rate limiting, etc.
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rawrmaan
There's also the spam issue. I know Solana is working on a switch from UDP to QUIC right now due to spammers being able to easily spoof IPs. These are definitely "high-scale" problems but there's no question that validators will need to be able to defend themselves from DoS-like activity
QUIC is already multiplexed UDP. It's being called HTTP/3 because it uses the HTTP/2 (gRPC uses this) style multiplexing and some congestion control.
15:56
HTTP/2 is interesting here because it specifically is robust to long lived connections.
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hashc0de
Since the requests are over gRPC, and not a custom protocol over libp2p, we can take advantage of the 25+ years of scaling web servers, caching, rate limiting, etc.
Totally agree, it's not breaking new ground, but I wanted to call it out because so many validator operators appear to be running stock OS with docker or from source and aren't thinking about tuning for things like "a big webserver" But I'm with you, we shouldn't be inventing new solutions, just giving guidance (or setting defaults in the container, if it matters) for what operators need to tweak based on what works for similar systems.
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I think this conversation is good though, especially for the itinerant operators who don't really know what they're doing and yoloed a docker container up somewhere.
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Competence of validator operators aside, this is adding more load to the CG while there are 3400 other validators that have lots of spare capacity. Why put it only on the CG? I know the answer will be that the other validators will be providing the gateway service to hotspots however there is no incentive for them to do so.
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It's a reasonable point. we could certainly add some kind of value to attestations but not sure how that increases the complexity.
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farm out the part of the challenge work to the other validators and let them in on the 0.9%, at least its something
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how do you select a validator for the challenge work? you know the CG member is alive and active. (edited)
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Validators heartbeat every 100 blocks. Have the CG put something in the block meta data selecting them to challenge. Could do it along with a hex.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 5:56 PM
Forgive me if this is an idiotic question due to my lack of validator knowledge .. 😅 Could there just be a parallel second "Challenger CG" that just takes care of the challenger duties and then passes the info to the current CG to do the rest of the work?
17:57
So a plug-in replacement of what challenger hotspots are doing now?
17:57
We've got plenty of validators, right? 😄
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There could, at the cost of added complexity. This proposal (rightfully so) is attempting to balance complexity with time to implement so we aren't waiting forever for light hotspots.
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PaulM
There could, at the cost of added complexity. This proposal (rightfully so) is attempting to balance complexity with time to implement so we aren't waiting forever for light hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 6:03 PM
Yeah, figured there would be a trade off 🙂
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PaulM
There could, at the cost of added complexity. This proposal (rightfully so) is attempting to balance complexity with time to implement so we aren't waiting forever for light hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 6:19 PM
Was hoping that the existing framework that currently is in place could just be adapted. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Forgive me if this is an idiotic question due to my lack of validator knowledge .. 😅 Could there just be a parallel second "Challenger CG" that just takes care of the challenger duties and then passes the info to the current CG to do the rest of the work?
Would an issue with this be since I can't be invited to join the 'validation CG" while I am in the "Challenger CG" it behooves my validator to say no to the "Challenger CG" ? (edited)
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If this goes thru, which probably will, when would this take action?
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KeithR
Would an issue with this be since I can't be invited to join the 'validation CG" while I am in the "Challenger CG" it behooves my validator to say no to the "Challenger CG" ? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 8:14 PM
I would guess there'd be an algorithm that would move you to the VCG and fill in the CCG with the next validator in the queue.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Forgive me if this is an idiotic question due to my lack of validator knowledge .. 😅 Could there just be a parallel second "Challenger CG" that just takes care of the challenger duties and then passes the info to the current CG to do the rest of the work?
This is mentioned in the HIP btw.
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hashc0de
Specifically it is the CG that creates ephemeral keys. The interesting part of the design is that it can just be added as block metadata and doesn't need to be part of the transaction budget per block.
Here’s one of the downsides.
20:19
Block metadata is made and stored by the CG along with the block. So if there’s a separate group, we’d have to retain the request txn
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hashc0de
This is mentioned in the HIP btw.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 8:20 PM
Doh! I'll go read it again. Lol
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It’s a dense one.
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20:21
As with all these proposed changes, I worry if people will truly understand the technical complexity, so we’ll try to be more available. AMA on Wednesday as well.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 8:23 PM
Maybe just me, but some graphic/flow chart could be handy for people to see the flow of tokens, cause/action, etc. :)
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Roger.
20:23
Good feedback for sure
20:24
Let me see if I can get Pete to help with that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 8:41 PM
All Hotspots, upon receipt of a challenge notification, will send a request over gRPC to the Challenger Validator to check if they are the target.
20:42
Why does the hotspot ask the validator if they are the target? Why doesn't the validator just issue the challenge to the target in the first place?
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hashc0de
This is mentioned in the HIP btw.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 9:24 PM
Just got to the part you were referring to. Literally exactly what I was talking about. Lol Thanks. 🙂
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Is HIP55 up for a vote yet?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/14/2022 9:52 PM
Not yet
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why does the hotspot ask the validator if they are the target? Why doesn't the validator just issue the challenge to the target in the first place?
The IP address of the Hotspot could be unknown, behind a relay, etc.
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21:58
We specifically want the hotspot to reach out to the more stable network participant.
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NickL
Is HIP55 up for a vote yet?
Champing at the bit? Get a validator on testnet and you can help test now 😉
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hashc0de
As with all these proposed changes, I worry if people will truly understand the technical complexity, so we’ll try to be more available. AMA on Wednesday as well.
Will that be here on Discord or in Zoom? I finally figured out how events work on discord... (edited)
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Anthonyra
Will that be here on Discord or in Zoom? I finally figured out how events work on discord... (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/15/2022 6:35 AM
discord stages AFAIK
06:35
theres an event-stage under voice <<
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
discord stages AFAIK
I didn't scroll up to see the 3 active events facepalm
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We specifically want the hotspot to reach out to the more stable network participant.
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped Re this ^^^. This is helps keep hotspots from needing incoming connections via port forwarding or similar firewall rules.
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No blockchain sync / no relays / no port forwarding / just plain http (basically) I’m beyond excited about this evolution (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/15/2022 9:34 AM
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So my understanding is Validators will make more by taking care of blockchain sync so no more relayed?
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FamilyJ
So my understanding is Validators will make more by taking care of blockchain sync so no more relayed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/15/2022 2:47 PM
0.9%
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I can't wait for this to happen!!! In the last 5 days I have lost 50% of my beacons and 40% of my witnesses to the p2p black hole! If everyone else is in the same boat, then half the activity of the network isn't captured! Do you think HIP will also remove the restriction on the number of witnesses? Out of the witnesses that were succesfully reported, only 18% were rewarded (11% of the total). I assume the rest lost the lottery to be in the 14 rewarded. I understand the impact to earnings won't be huge (though something is better than nothing) but I'd like to able to see how much coverage I am providing. (edited)
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We probably won't be removing the restrictions on witness counts with this HIP but there's a little note in there about "regional challenges". We have this concept in mind where instead of a single Hotspot being challenged, an entire hex is challenged, and everyone in that hex beacons and witnesses at the same time (while staying in compliance of local radio regulations). this would give the entire area some work to do to prove each other and also able to reward the entire area at once for the information the blockchain received. This is just a concept though and needs some thinking.
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The_Professional 02/15/2022 4:34 PM
@hashc0de forgive me if this was answered. I started pushing customers onto helium once again. I wasn't very happy last time I did. I've been relatively happy this time. My sensors get their data moved and it's been stable. I appreciate the hard work that you guys have done. I'm all for light hotspots and any way to scale this network. For the people that are using it with paying clients. Is there any chance that switching this over to light hot spots will affect data moving through the network?
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The_Professional
@hashc0de forgive me if this was answered. I started pushing customers onto helium once again. I wasn't very happy last time I did. I've been relatively happy this time. My sensors get their data moved and it's been stable. I appreciate the hard work that you guys have done. I'm all for light hotspots and any way to scale this network. For the people that are using it with paying clients. Is there any chance that switching this over to light hot spots will affect data moving through the network?
From my understanding, hotspots will not transmit packets if they're not fully synced, as they don't have the latest view of state channels and OUIs. So, if syncing is no longer necessary and hotspots can transmit data (nearly) 100% of the time, the network will be more reliable.
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that’s right. There’s also work to get hotspots transferring packets without being fully synced that’s getting soak time. Doing this will allow more consistent and stable coverage for devices, and less coverage downtime
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Couldn’t have said it better than these two. #teamnosyncneeded
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The_Professional 02/15/2022 8:56 PM
Thank you @rawrmaan @hashc0de @cokes for the response. As long as data keeps moving through the network I don't care. It's got my vote. Carry on ladies and gentlemen.. sorry Cokes. (edited)
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… and woman! (One of us at least)
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hashc0de
We probably won't be removing the restrictions on witness counts with this HIP but there's a little note in there about "regional challenges". We have this concept in mind where instead of a single Hotspot being challenged, an entire hex is challenged, and everyone in that hex beacons and witnesses at the same time (while staying in compliance of local radio regulations). this would give the entire area some work to do to prove each other and also able to reward the entire area at once for the information the blockchain received. This is just a concept though and needs some thinking.
Tim | LongAP 02/15/2022 10:24 PM
Please don’t, of course you can’t beacon all at the exact same but beaconing all in a certain timeframe would greatly disrupt LoRa traffic (even when staying within regulatory limits because those limits don’t really consider coordinated transmissions)
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Any ETA for this HIP?
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Tim | LongAP
Please don’t, of course you can’t beacon all at the exact same but beaconing all in a certain timeframe would greatly disrupt LoRa traffic (even when staying within regulatory limits because those limits don’t really consider coordinated transmissions)
We don’t have a design for it yet but have some ideas that won’t be disruptive.
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hashc0de
Couldn’t have said it better than these two. #teamnosyncneeded
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/16/2022 10:20 AM
Without going into the details, a simple yes or no. Can you make it work? (hotspots functioning properly without being/needing to sync to the block)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Without going into the details, a simple yes or no. Can you make it work? (hotspots functioning properly without being/needing to sync to the block)
It already works on testnet, so the answer is yes
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rawrmaan
It already works on testnet, so the answer is yes
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/16/2022 10:36 AM
AMAZING! TY.
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haha yes. hotspots on testnet are not needing to sync. we'll need to move the miner codebase to take advantage of this and eventually drop the erlang miner (that does all the syncing/blockchain bits) from full hotspots. we're working with manufacturers to test this on testnet first as well.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/16/2022 12:14 PM
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Blackdawn101 02/16/2022 1:07 PM
so right now there are some hot spots out there that companies are calling light hot spots that do data only. once this hip is implemented would those hot spots be eligible to mine at that point or would they still just be data only hot spots?
13:11
and example would be the dragino lps8
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Carl-bot BOT 02/16/2022 1:11 PM
It looks like you're asking about the Dragino LPS8 which is a Data-Only Hotspot. You will not earn HNT for PoC and the amount of HNT earned for transferring data is small. For every DC used to transfer a packet, the Data-Only Hotspot will earn 1 DCs worth of HNT. 1 DC = $0.00001. Setting up a Dragino LPS8 is a great way to build network coverage, but will not earn HNT for Proof-of-Coverage For more information, please visit: https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/data-only-hotspots
Data Only Hotspots are eligible for Network Data Transfer Rewards but not
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Blackdawn101
so right now there are some hot spots out there that companies are calling light hot spots that do data only. once this hip is implemented would those hot spots be eligible to mine at that point or would they still just be data only hot spots?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/16/2022 1:19 PM
Still data only
13:20
"light gateways" are sold via hip19, nothing labeled light right now will ever earn from PoC
13:20
They're classed as data only
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Still data only
Blackdawn101 02/16/2022 1:36 PM
ok thank you
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so i just read this hip. Am i understanding it correctly that rewards that were being given to hotspots would move to validators with this? Considering rewards for hotspots continue to shrink is it a good idea to further punish hotspot owners with this? Or is there some mechanism to offset the hotspot rewards by increasing other operational rewards?
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Tim
so i just read this hip. Am i understanding it correctly that rewards that were being given to hotspots would move to validators with this? Considering rewards for hotspots continue to shrink is it a good idea to further punish hotspot owners with this? Or is there some mechanism to offset the hotspot rewards by increasing other operational rewards?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 9:25 AM
only for creating challenges, beaconing/witness rewards stay the same
09:26
PoC Challenger 0.90% per epoch
09:26
so its not a massive change
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Is this vote supposed to be a temperature check vote? I'm surprised this is already up for a full vote. The HIP PR was merged only three days ago and there are unanswered questions from the AMA.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
PoC Challenger 0.90% per epoch
it seems more and more rewards are being moved to validators while at same time more hotspots come online bringing down the full distribution of rewards for hotspots. Granted that .90% may be small on its own but combined with ever decreasing rewards this is just helping to shrink rewards further. While the suggestion does make sense from a technical point, i think we are hitting a point that the reward mechanism as a whole should be looked at and rebalanced.
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wait so if I understood this right after this hip the full miners currently out don't need to be 100% synced to the blockchain everytime. Right?
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BusyPanda
wait so if I understood this right after this hip the full miners currently out don't need to be 100% synced to the blockchain everytime. Right?
As far as I understand it, there will be no miner syncing. The P2P network will not extend to miners.
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This POC seems to be very damaging to the intensive of deploying miners to low covered areas. Currently they can earn partly by creating challenges. By taking this away, don't you hurt the mission of global coverage?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 9:56 AM
i don't really want to vote yes to the hip when the validators dont stay updated and not relayed half the time, but at least i'd quit having a peer book full of denied hotspots
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Tim
it seems more and more rewards are being moved to validators while at same time more hotspots come online bringing down the full distribution of rewards for hotspots. Granted that .90% may be small on its own but combined with ever decreasing rewards this is just helping to shrink rewards further. While the suggestion does make sense from a technical point, i think we are hitting a point that the reward mechanism as a whole should be looked at and rebalanced.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 9:56 AM
That's what #hip-52-lorawan-subdao will help with
09:56
Reward units in wnt can be 1000x larger to help the number bias
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This HIP is going to centralize PoC challenges on validators, hence they can enforce staking of HNT if you want to be challenged
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Validators are for rich folk, and now more rewards is pushed to them, taking away intensive of deploying miners
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 9:59 AM
Definitely curious to that effect myself
10:01
It seems the changes are pushing people towards saturation rather than towards global spread out. If challenges move to validators, then you lose that little bit of incentive you get for being further away. Granted, the higher you go the more opportunity you have, but for those that cant get high enough to reach populated cities, would greatly lose out
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:01 AM
once the validators controll challenges what happens to the hotspots on deny-list, do the legit hotspots still get punished when they challenge or get challenged by banned hotspots still on the chain ? as we do under the current system?
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Also this vote is rather pointless, seeing validators hold the mass of HNT, and will obviously vote in favor of earning more
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Ih8mypp
Also this vote is rather pointless, seeing validators hold the mass of HNT, and will obviously vote in favor of earning more
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:02 AM
less validator wallets than hotspot wallets
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Look at past votes and see how many votes are compared to involved HNT
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:03 AM
true (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
That's what #hip-52-lorawan-subdao will help with
thanks for that info. I was not aware this was being addressed.. Too much news constantly coming out to keep up haahaha
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 10:04 AM
I do a weekly news round up on YouTube for that exact reason
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We should write and propose a HIP that counts votes based on how many miners a wallet has, rather than the amount of stored HNT
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I think it's important to remember that the ultimate objective of light hotspots is to scale the network and improve reliability. That is good for everyone who holds HNT, and should more than offset the 0.9% loss for PoC creation.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 10:05 AM
Busy episode tomorrow, lots of great news
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AlexC
I think it's important to remember that the ultimate objective of light hotspots is to scale the network and improve reliability. That is good for everyone who holds HNT, and should more than offset the 0.9% loss for PoC creation.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:05 AM
i think the issue is most of us dont trust the validators to hold up to their part of this
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Why not?
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AlexC
Why not?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:06 AM
they dont stay upto date as is, the consensus groups get filled with out of date validators
10:06
some even relayed, which hurts hotspot earnings
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I don't agree with that at all. The vast majority of validators are on the latest version and only a handful are relayed
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I do a weekly news round up on YouTube for that exact reason
just subscribed
partyparrot 2
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AlexC
I don't agree with that at all. The vast majority of validators are on the latest version and only a handful are relayed
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:07 AM
but that handfull ends up in our consensus groups and peerbooks daily
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 10:09 AM
If anything, the rewards for challenges should remain on the hotspots IMO ... why can't we shift the challenge reward to the challengee so that all sent beacons are rewarded and you get more rewards for having witnesses of that same beacon
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
If anything, the rewards for challenges should remain on the hotspots IMO ... why can't we shift the challenge reward to the challengee so that all sent beacons are rewarded and you get more rewards for having witnesses of that same beacon
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 10:13 AM
It puts extra load, and data transfer bills onto validators running construction
10:13
In an already tight margin of earnings , it makes a lot of sense for rewarding them to do this extra workload
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Just from a noob point of view, this seems like a huge centralization move. Is there somebody who can explain to be the benefits on the vision side of things (I have already an idea of the benefits of Light hotspots and the improvements of not storing the blockchain locally).
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 10:13 AM
Remember lgw check in to validators with grpc so the bw usage will increase, so extra cost
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It might actually decrease bandwidth. Removing the need for hotspots to sync blocks will be a huge savings.
10:15
The gRPC stuff should hopefully be pretty lightweight - but i dont know if anyone knows for sure the net difference
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 10:15 AM
I just wish we could solve the saturation issue at the same time... right now this is just more incentive to squeeze into a hex to make sure you can get beacon rewards
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I just wish we could solve the saturation issue at the same time... right now this is just more incentive to squeeze into a hex to make sure you can get beacon rewards
definitely. that's fair game for a separate HIP. the existing HIP-17 variables could be tweaked to drive some of what you are looking for
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Technoking
Just from a noob point of view, this seems like a huge centralization move. Is there somebody who can explain to be the benefits on the vision side of things (I have already an idea of the benefits of Light hotspots and the improvements of not storing the blockchain locally).
Unfortunately, in order to effectively construct a PoC challenge, you need a copy of the chain. Continuing to have hotspots sync the chain is not sustainable for the reasons outlined in the HIP. So, that leaves validators as the logic place for this responsibility. There are 3400+ validators owned by over 600 accounts by last check. So, I'm not sure what you mean by centralization. Becoming a validator is permissionless.
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PaulM
Unfortunately, in order to effectively construct a PoC challenge, you need a copy of the chain. Continuing to have hotspots sync the chain is not sustainable for the reasons outlined in the HIP. So, that leaves validators as the logic place for this responsibility. There are 3400+ validators owned by over 600 accounts by last check. So, I'm not sure what you mean by centralization. Becoming a validator is permissionless.
so after this the current full miners that are out don't need to keep a sync from the blockchain ?
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BusyPanda
so after this the current full miners that are out don't need to keep a sync from the blockchain ?
Correct. No more syncing once this is fully implemented. The extra up time for hotspot owners should be very welcome.
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PaulM
Unfortunately, in order to effectively construct a PoC challenge, you need a copy of the chain. Continuing to have hotspots sync the chain is not sustainable for the reasons outlined in the HIP. So, that leaves validators as the logic place for this responsibility. There are 3400+ validators owned by over 600 accounts by last check. So, I'm not sure what you mean by centralization. Becoming a validator is permissionless.
To be fair, a few of those 600 accounts own a lot of them, so some centralisation concern is valid. This is not specifically related to or due to this HIP however. (edited)
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one thing I would say that the miner not requiring to keep a blockchain copy and synced is very valuable to scale the network more specifically in developing countries. Currently in my country internet itself is not that accessible and even if I want to use a sim router to place it at a location the network is not that super great with 5g speeds and data required to keep the hotspot in sync is high. Moreover even regular broadband or fiber internet is not that much available yet and some still have data caps. I would request for people to see this hip with this aspect too. If it gives up these challengers reward but provides actual option for scalability for the network especially for places outside of developed nations. (edited)
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BusyPanda
one thing I would say that the miner not requiring to keep a blockchain copy and synced is very valuable to scale the network more specifically in developing countries. Currently in my country internet itself is not that accessible and even if I want to use a sim router to place it at a location the network is not that super great with 5g speeds and data required to keep the hotspot in sync is high. Moreover even regular broadband or fiber internet is not that much available yet and some still have data caps. I would request for people to see this hip with this aspect too. If it gives up these challengers reward but provides actual option for scalability for the network especially for places outside of developed nations. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:34 AM
Thanks for pointing that out.
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GreatScottyMac 02/17/2022 10:44 AM
Will this change become inevitable at some point in the future as the network grows, regardless of whether it's adopted now?
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GreatScottyMac
Will this change become inevitable at some point in the future as the network grows, regardless of whether it's adopted now?
IMO the network doesn't survive without moving challenge creation validators, so yes
10:46
We're already at the point where it needs to happen. Can't wait any longer
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GreatScottyMac 02/17/2022 10:47 AM
I suppose the only other option would be to somehow upgrade the capabilities of current hotspot hardware?
10:48
Which wouldn't make sense
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It's not only the hardware but also the networking, as illustrated by @BusyPanda above
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Yeah exactly, it would increase the hotspot cost and make all the current ones obsolete. Even then, you'd have the p2p network issues to deal with, which would get worse over time with more hotspots no matter how good the hardware is
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It's really quite remarkable that we have a 500k+ node p2p network actually working.
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GreatScottyMac 02/17/2022 10:51 AM
So the NO votes are probably coming from people who only want to be in this for the short term 🤷🏻‍♂️
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rawrmaan
IMO the network doesn't survive without moving challenge creation validators, so yes
I disagree, the challenges are not the issue, the networking is. The correct statement (imo) would be that the network doesn't survive without fixing the networking problems. One of the solutions is light hotspots but to do that you need challenging at the validators.
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hashc0de
It's really quite remarkable that we have a 500k+ node p2p network actually working.
It has to be the largest P2P network in the world, surely?
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groot
I disagree, the challenges are not the issue, the networking is. The correct statement (imo) would be that the network doesn't survive without fixing the networking problems. One of the solutions is light hotspots but to do that you need challenging at the validators.
Technically correct, the hotspots need to no longer connect to the p2p network, but they technically still could create challenges. The degree of complexity there is unknown to me
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GreatScottyMac
So the NO votes are probably coming from people who only want to be in this for the short term 🤷🏻‍♂️
As a devil's advocate, there are multiple ways to go about moving the challengers to validators. My concerns at least are with the design not the fact of moving. I think there should have been more discussion on the specifics. This is being sold as a vote on light hotspots vs. not. It's much more than that.
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AlexC
It has to be the largest P2P network in the world, surely?
pretty close. bittorrent is maybe bigger.
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hashc0de
pretty close. bittorrent is maybe bigger.
But is that one network?
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Yeah i guess the difference with bittorrent is that you don't have a shared state for all nodes
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GreatScottyMac 02/17/2022 10:54 AM
I mean, rewards from creating challenges are such a tiny fraction of total earnings, I would think that avoiding even one episode of falling out of sync would make it worthwhile to hand challenge creation over to validators
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True, but challenge creation is the only reward for hotspots that are lone wolves. It's a UBI of sorts. Psychologically it may keep many hotspots running before they have witnesses (edited)
10:55
We can't know the true effect of losing this UBI until it's gone, unfortunately. It's not measurable
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rawrmaan
True, but challenge creation is the only reward for hotspots that are lone wolves. It's a UBI of sorts. Psychologically it may keep many hotspots running before they have witnesses (edited)
GreatScottyMac 02/17/2022 10:55 AM
Ahh, yes, I didn't think about that. This is where the no votes are coming from
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The wording of the vote announcement seems to come down to: "vote for this or no light hotspots for you". It isn't very neutral and I think that undermines the 'HIP it all' attitude that Helium is taking. It is simply not true that you have to agree with this HIP, in this form, in order to get light hotspots so it shouldn't be brought that way.
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PaulM
As a devil's advocate, there are multiple ways to go about moving the challengers to validators. My concerns at least are with the design not the fact of moving. I think there should have been more discussion on the specifics. This is being sold as a vote on light hotspots vs. not. It's much more than that.
Exactly...For example: We move challenging to validators, what happens when some1 joins the network? Are they force to delegate in order to get challenges?
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Drunfos
Exactly...For example: We move challenging to validators, what happens when some1 joins the network? Are they force to delegate in order to get challenges?
Certainly not, since delegation only exists in 10,000 HNT chunks
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groot
The wording of the vote announcement seems to come down to: "vote for this or no light hotspots for you". It isn't very neutral and I think that undermines the 'HIP it all' attitude that Helium is taking. It is simply not true that you have to agree with this HIP, in this form, in order to get light hotspots so it shouldn't be brought that way.
Well said.
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How certain are you? They didnt specify anything. Maybe they lower staking entry and "force" everyone to stake in order to witness. As staking services are paid, you pay for the hotspot+service and we move to private network..No more peoples network..:p (edited)
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groot
The wording of the vote announcement seems to come down to: "vote for this or no light hotspots for you". It isn't very neutral and I think that undermines the 'HIP it all' attitude that Helium is taking. It is simply not true that you have to agree with this HIP, in this form, in order to get light hotspots so it shouldn't be brought that way.
It has also been rather hasty. Concerns have been raised but not properly addressed. I was surprised to see the vote happening so soon.
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groot
The wording of the vote announcement seems to come down to: "vote for this or no light hotspots for you". It isn't very neutral and I think that undermines the 'HIP it all' attitude that Helium is taking. It is simply not true that you have to agree with this HIP, in this form, in order to get light hotspots so it shouldn't be brought that way.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 11:04 AM
any suggestions?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
any suggestions?
For starters I would remove the erroneous causality between HIP55 and light hotspots. We're not voting on light hotspots, we are voting for a proposal that is one of the paths that will lead to light hotspots. Let me be clear, I am not arguing the content of the HIP, but rather the way that it is presented.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 11:10 AM
sure, just to be clear i believe some are missreading it as all poc is moving
11:10
and suggested maybe an edit, so if you have any feedback as to what, I'll do a pr
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:26 AM
i dont think it is all poc, as much as how much power/control over the network validators end up with in the end. and how reliable the network becomes with validators holding the PoC creation power.
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groot
For starters I would remove the erroneous causality between HIP55 and light hotspots. We're not voting on light hotspots, we are voting for a proposal that is one of the paths that will lead to light hotspots. Let me be clear, I am not arguing the content of the HIP, but rather the way that it is presented.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:26 AM
Not sure how moving Challenges to Validators is not required for light hotspots?
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just label it as " solution to hotspot sync issues and sd card storage" and everyone will vote yes 🤣 (edited)
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BusyPanda
just label it as " solution to hotspot sync issues and sd card storage" and everyone will vote yes 🤣 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:29 AM
AKA "No more Relay or Port forwarding" HIP. 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
AKA "No more Relay or Port forwarding" HIP. 😉 lol
yeah. that too.
11:30
like seriously in a way this hip actually solves so much for the people with gateway I just don't understand why someone with gateway will vote against it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure how moving Challenges to Validators is not required for light hotspots?
You seem to be missing the point, this HIP, in this form, is not the only road to light hotspots. Even if we accept that we have to move the challenges to validators this is not the only way to do it and light hotspots are not dependent on this particular implementation. I am not arguing the other methods are preferable or even viable, but it shouldn't be presented as a 'this or nothing' case. (edited)
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PSA: https://heliumvote.com/ Go vote, and make your voice heard.
Helium Vote is where the Helium Community comes together to make decisions on the Network.
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groot
You seem to be missing the point, this HIP, in this form, is not the only road to light hotspots. Even if we accept that we have to move the challenges to validators this is not the only way to do it and light hotspots are not dependent on this particular implementation. I am not arguing the other methods are preferable or even viable, but it shouldn't be presented as a 'this or nothing' case. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:47 AM
Sorry, was in a work meeting. 🙂 What is the other road then? How are LHS possible without moving Challenges away from them (and all the related mechanisms that go with that)?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Sorry, was in a work meeting. 🙂 What is the other road then? How are LHS possible without moving Challenges away from them (and all the related mechanisms that go with that)?
There are other options with regard to the specifics. For example, whether or not to move the 0.9% to the validators, and also whether specifically the consensus group validators should be the ones creating challenges or spreading the challenge creation around to all validators. I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
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PaulM
There are other options with regard to the specifics. For example, whether or not to move the 0.9% to the validators, and also whether specifically the consensus group validators should be the ones creating challenges or spreading the challenge creation around to all validators. I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:53 AM
IMO the 0.9% is only fair. They are doing the work, they should get that reward.
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PaulM
There are other options with regard to the specifics. For example, whether or not to move the 0.9% to the validators, and also whether specifically the consensus group validators should be the ones creating challenges or spreading the challenge creation around to all validators. I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:59 AM
I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
Sorry, been a lot going on. Could you remind us what that concern was? 🙂
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In order to do PoC generation, the hotspots have to sync the chain, right? As a hotspot owner, I'd really prefer the hotspots to not have to stay in sync, I "give up" more than the equivalent of PoC rewards in witnessing and beaconing rewards by having hotspots that struggle to stay in sync.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
Sorry, been a lot going on. Could you remind us what that concern was? 🙂
CG members already (before the PoC interval reduction) struggle to keep up with CG work, even those on expensibve highly spec'd dedicated servers. The HIP-55 design adds work to CG members and has the potential for a ton of incoming connections from a hex to check if they're in CG. The concern is reducing block production performance, I think. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
Sorry, been a lot going on. Could you remind us what that concern was? 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I noted a concern with having only 43 at a time of the 3400 validators taking this one.
Sorry, been a lot going on. Could you remind us what that concern was? 🙂
Also, all the light hotspots are going to dependent on validators for services - even those that are not actively creating challenges. However, there is no additional incentive for those validators. What if all the validator operators choose not to offer that since it is extra cost to them without any compensation? Then you are going to have 500K hotspots dependent on a few validators for those services. That could be just as bad as the p2p network depending on how generous the validators are feeling.
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PaulM
Also, all the light hotspots are going to dependent on validators for services - even those that are not actively creating challenges. However, there is no additional incentive for those validators. What if all the validator operators choose not to offer that since it is extra cost to them without any compensation? Then you are going to have 500K hotspots dependent on a few validators for those services. That could be just as bad as the p2p network depending on how generous the validators are feeling.
What if all the validator operators choose not to offer that since it is extra cost to them without any compensation? If the light hotspots do not get challenged anymore, the whole blockchain becomes useless as well as the HNT coin. So it would impact the validators badly too
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agourk
What if all the validator operators choose not to offer that since it is extra cost to them without any compensation? If the light hotspots do not get challenged anymore, the whole blockchain becomes useless as well as the HNT coin. So it would impact the validators badly too
Long-term, yes. Unfortunately, as with any system, there are still many people that take a short-term, selfish view.
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let me understand this right -> Today, the Hotspots creating PoC Challenges and submitting receipts to the blockchain are rewarded with 0.9% of HNT rewarded per epoch. We propose that this subsidy be moved to the Validator Challenger
12:29
means we will produce even less
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12:29
more for the validators...
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It’s such a cheap tradeoff for no syncing honestly
12:31
Sacrificing 0.01 per day/hotspot?
12:32
Let them be compensated for lifting the weights (edited)
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depends on the numbers, i voted against, lately all work made to "ease" the network is done to the benefit of partners etc
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Dejavu
let me understand this right -> Today, the Hotspots creating PoC Challenges and submitting receipts to the blockchain are rewarded with 0.9% of HNT rewarded per epoch. We propose that this subsidy be moved to the Validator Challenger
my hotspot has gone offline often because of syncing issues, and I think it cost me more than 0.9% of my rewards
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agourk
my hotspot has gone offline often because of syncing issues, and I think it cost me more than 0.9% of my rewards
not my fault that your manufacturer shipped you the cheapest hardware
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facepalm 1
12:35
and dont know/want to fix the fw (edited)
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Tarek
Let them be compensated for lifting the weights (edited)
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then the hip must be edited
12:37
validators are independent, i see bad things comming from this
12:37
see what happened when the block got stuck
12:37
begging people to run commands
12:38
i dont trust validators, sorry
facepalm 2
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Dejavu
and dont know/want to fix the fw (edited)
timamook_psap35 02/17/2022 12:38 PM
funny, so, what if those having the most issues get their FW straight from the helium team?
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timamook_psap35
funny, so, what if those having the most issues get their FW straight from the helium team?
actually very few, og, rak and sensecap
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Dejavu
i dont trust validators, sorry
Both ways validators control the network
12:39
They could stop now and the network would shutdown🤣
12:39
No more blocks
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Tarek
Both ways validators control the network
exactly
12:39
give them even more control (edited)
12:39
lets remember the last "400" added validators
12:40
was some discussion there
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There are two new roles of validators described in the hip - one for creating challenges. that is compensated. and one for providing other services like notifying hotspots they've been challenged, providing routing information for data packets, etc. the latter has no incentive mechanism in the proposal
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Dejavu
give them even more control (edited)
They’re already in control enough to shut down the network
12:41
I don’t see why letting them handle the challenges is a big deal
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Tarek
They’re already in control enough to shut down the network
im just saying that giving to much power to independent people is not good
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Dejavu
im just saying that giving to much power to independent people is not good
But...It's the people's network! It's decentralized! 😛 Validators are people too! (edited)
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Dejavu
im just saying that giving to much power to independent people is not good
Well it’s the peoples network
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yeaa.. good one :))
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If the people decide to shut it down then oh well
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yea, someone make a hip
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Dejavu
yea, someone make a hip
You're a people too. You can write a hip.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 pinned a message to this channel. 02/17/2022 12:46 PM
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krby
You're a people too. You can write a hip.
too busy fixing cotx hotspots
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 12:59 PM
What if this was moved to a whole new "miner" so to say... one that any community member could run that stays in sync with the chain and just issues challenges?
13:00
Get rewards for the challenges submitted and up time!?
13:01
That way, poc remains completely decentralized and not driven by only those with the pockets to run a validator
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 1:18 PM
there are multiple solution options, but they have to be balanced with the end goal, difficulty in implementation etc.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
That way, poc remains completely decentralized and not driven by only those with the pockets to run a validator
IMO the requirements for this "PoC creation miner" would have to be: - Reliable network connection that allows inbound connections (port-forwarding) - Enough CPU and disk (speed and capacity) to stay in sync. What hardware would support that? It feels a lot like a VPS instance running on AWS or similar. Would you pay $40/mo to run that? Sure it COULD be run at home, but then without port forwarding you're back to p2p network issues. You also wouldn't want it to be an RPi with an SD card, then you're stuck managing space and wear level like the current hotspots are, not counting the CPU load. (edited)
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Sounds like something I'd just run on my validator servers (edited)
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krby
IMO the requirements for this "PoC creation miner" would have to be: - Reliable network connection that allows inbound connections (port-forwarding) - Enough CPU and disk (speed and capacity) to stay in sync. What hardware would support that? It feels a lot like a VPS instance running on AWS or similar. Would you pay $40/mo to run that? Sure it COULD be run at home, but then without port forwarding you're back to p2p network issues. You also wouldn't want it to be an RPi with an SD card, then you're stuck managing space and wear level like the current hotspots are, not counting the CPU load. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 1:20 PM
i think that is a more viable option for the subdao chains, and we should consider layer two nodes, but that's a totally different set of hips, and a new hip
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AlexC
Sounds like something I'd just run on my validator servers (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 1:21 PM
okay what's your opinion running a validator about this HIP ? for or against and why?
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krby
IMO the requirements for this "PoC creation miner" would have to be: - Reliable network connection that allows inbound connections (port-forwarding) - Enough CPU and disk (speed and capacity) to stay in sync. What hardware would support that? It feels a lot like a VPS instance running on AWS or similar. Would you pay $40/mo to run that? Sure it COULD be run at home, but then without port forwarding you're back to p2p network issues. You also wouldn't want it to be an RPi with an SD card, then you're stuck managing space and wear level like the current hotspots are, not counting the CPU load. (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:21 PM
I think the trade off is the same... what you just described to me, is MUCH easier for me to solve than 10,000 HNT 😉
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krby
IMO the requirements for this "PoC creation miner" would have to be: - Reliable network connection that allows inbound connections (port-forwarding) - Enough CPU and disk (speed and capacity) to stay in sync. What hardware would support that? It feels a lot like a VPS instance running on AWS or similar. Would you pay $40/mo to run that? Sure it COULD be run at home, but then without port forwarding you're back to p2p network issues. You also wouldn't want it to be an RPi with an SD card, then you're stuck managing space and wear level like the current hotspots are, not counting the CPU load. (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:24 PM
Also, it wouldnt been that difficult to do honestly, for any normal operator... I mean we already have a ton of people that know how to actually port forward! The hardware requirements cant be THAT daunting considering that your tiny little hotspot is doing it right now!!
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I think the trade off is the same... what you just described to me, is MUCH easier for me to solve than 10,000 HNT 😉
Sure, but is it financially worth it to do it? $40/mo (or $20 for a real small instance) for how many rewards?
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How do you make them sybil resistant? You need some kind of stake
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krby
Sure, but is it financially worth it to do it? $40/mo (or $20 for a real small instance) for how many rewards?
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:25 PM
It is for me, cause i have servers already that i can spin up that can handle this noproblem...plus the bandwidth
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
Also, it wouldnt been that difficult to do honestly, for any normal operator... I mean we already have a ton of people that know how to actually port forward! The hardware requirements cant be THAT daunting considering that your tiny little hotspot is doing it right now!!
They're doing it, poorly. Many hotspots don't stay in sync, or aren't reachable because of inbound connections.
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krby
They're doing it, poorly. Many hotspots don't stay in sync, or aren't reachable because of inbound connections.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:25 PM
Right but they, again, are tiny in comparison to even a laptop with an icore 5
13:25
which is shit lol
13:26
i bet an icore 3 on an ssd could outperform the hotspot in challenges
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
It is for me, cause i have servers already that i can spin up that can handle this noproblem...plus the bandwidth
Ahh, yes. I see. So...for the group that can do this, sure! It's both the network connectivity (and home ISP / router combos suck for this) and the compute / disk.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
i bet an icore 3 on an ssd could outperform the hotspot in challenges
Totally agree, tiny "real" computer with not an SD card can keep up with the chain just fine.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:27 PM
It would just be a really nice option, to not have to be rich in order to run this part of the code is my real feedback
13:27
plus it gives the opportunity for both the rich or savvy to participate
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I tried a raspberry pi with iscsi storage once, it could also keep up with the chain without any issues, no absorb spikes, just decent performance. The SD card is the real buzzkill.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:28 PM
that's a nice incentive, imo... a PI would totally make your money's worth for keeping it online
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
plus it gives the opportunity for both the rich or savvy to participate
The problem to solve (as @AlexC ) pointed out is that we'd need enough people doing this, or some "stake" in the game so the PoC generation isn't game-able.
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krby
The problem to solve (as @AlexC ) pointed out is that we'd need enough people doing this, or some "stake" in the game so the PoC generation isn't game-able.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:31 PM
I agree 100% ... I dont think the answer im giving is to deny validators... it's to allow more than validators to be able to do this simple part of the poc
13:31
So if you want to run it on a val... go ffor it, but it shouldnt be a requirement to be a val just to poc
13:31
errr, issue a challenge i mean
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I agree 100% ... I dont think the answer im giving is to deny validators... it's to allow more than validators to be able to do this simple part of the poc
Ahhh, ok. So if a val operator wants to be rewarded for PoC challenge work, they can opt in, but anyone else who thinks they can make this work can also, without a high (or any?) stake required.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:34 PM
Exactly that, just have the know how, the equipment, and participate.... what would be even more awesome, is eventually with a model like this, validators could essentially utilize in field poc challengers or themselves to further expand their compute and knock out blocks at a time
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So let me spin up 100k instances and get all the 0.9%.
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A PoC-specific role with some low stake requirement would probably work (edited)
13:35
100 HNT, say
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groot
So let me spin up 100k instances and get all the 0.9%.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:35 PM
i would hope not lol that would be wasteful for you i would think
13:36
no possible way .9% of rwards could pay for 100K of an overload of servers
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
i would hope not lol that would be wasteful for you i would think
Not if "get all the 0.9%" really means "can game PoC generation for my cheating miner farm"
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Krby is getting the subtext😂
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krby
Not if "get all the 0.9%" really means "can game PoC generation for my cheating miner farm"
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:36 PM
So, how is it done now... its isnt as if owning more hotspots makes you challenge more right? (edited)
13:37
it's essentially the same no?
13:37
if i bought 100K hotspots do I get all the 0.9% ?
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So...ya I guess that means the stake (when functioning as some friction for acquiring too many) for PoC is naturally the cost of a hotspot?
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:38 PM
essentially, but im pretty sure even hotspots have a limitation to when they can issue a challenge.. i would imagine the new service would be no different
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In my example the 0.9% wasn’t really the main goal, the main goal was being in charge of challenge creation, just to clarify.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:39 PM
that is the same as owning 100K hotspots though bro
13:39
you're just moving the service around
13:39
doesnt matter if its a hotspot or servers... you can do that now if that was the argument
13:40
well 100K hotspots would be more profitable since you can actually get other rewards
13:40
I dont see someone gaming for poc rewards though
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Now that we added staking to the mix it is the same, yes. My example was quickly destroyed due to the staking
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 1:41 PM
Anyway, good discussion, love it guys.. lots a good topics on this one
13:41
I gotta head out for a bit but ill check in every once in a while
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Dejavu
let me understand this right -> Today, the Hotspots creating PoC Challenges and submitting receipts to the blockchain are rewarded with 0.9% of HNT rewarded per epoch. We propose that this subsidy be moved to the Validator Challenger
Mining Chef 02/17/2022 2:07 PM
Become a validator or stake haha
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Mining Chef
Become a validator or stake haha
just do both
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:19 PM
🥩 🤤
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Mining Chef 02/17/2022 2:29 PM
So tell me how to vote .. yes or no
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Mining Chef
So tell me how to vote .. yes or no
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:30 PM
I will not, but I voted yes. 🙂
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Mining Chef 02/17/2022 2:31 PM
I have 90,000 hnt so my vote matters... A little haha
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Mining Chef
I have 90,000 hnt so my vote matters... A little haha
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:31 PM
14:31
lol
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There are many voting against this because they don't want to lose the challenger rewards... I don't think they have any idea how many witnesses and beacons are being lost simply because of the p2p issues!!! Assuming the validators are up to the task, a properly operating network should more than make up for the challenger losses.
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Mining Chef 02/17/2022 2:32 PM
Hashcode and the Professor know more then me... So I think I trust them haha
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malder
There are many voting against this because they don't want to lose the challenger rewards... I don't think they have any idea how many witnesses and beacons are being lost simply because of the p2p issues!!! Assuming the validators are up to the task, a properly operating network should more than make up for the challenger losses.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:32 PM
Losing 0.9% is nothing. Very cheap price to pay for fixing so many issues. 🙂
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I'd be a fan of imposing some kind of minimum service agreement on validators though. I know that's philosophically difficult... but hotspot owners can't build their own hardware, and that's fair... we want a predictably functional network. Likewise if the network is to be run by validators, they should meet some minimum requirements for hardware, network access, and uptime.
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malder
I'd be a fan of imposing some kind of minimum service agreement on validators though. I know that's philosophically difficult... but hotspot owners can't build their own hardware, and that's fair... we want a predictably functional network. Likewise if the network is to be run by validators, they should meet some minimum requirements for hardware, network access, and uptime.
Mining Chef 02/17/2022 2:34 PM
Just like SC Prime
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malder
I'd be a fan of imposing some kind of minimum service agreement on validators though. I know that's philosophically difficult... but hotspot owners can't build their own hardware, and that's fair... we want a predictably functional network. Likewise if the network is to be run by validators, they should meet some minimum requirements for hardware, network access, and uptime.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:34 PM
Well to be fair there is already a punishment system in place for underperforming validators. 🙂
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14:35
Might need some adjustments though.
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malder
There are many voting against this because they don't want to lose the challenger rewards... I don't think they have any idea how many witnesses and beacons are being lost simply because of the p2p issues!!! Assuming the validators are up to the task, a properly operating network should more than make up for the challenger losses.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:42 PM
i hope they are since their vote's easily out weigh the very few hotspot owners who actually vote on hips
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well to be fair there is already a punishment system in place for underperforming validators. 🙂
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:42 PM
that system sucks
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Its not about the rewards..Its about centralizing challenge generation
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Drunfos
Its not about the rewards..Its about centralizing challenge generation
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:43 PM
by the vote of the validators they vote to assume the work, and the power, so the rest of the "people" in the people's network are now at their mercy
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Drunfos
Its not about the rewards..Its about centralizing challenge generation
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:44 PM
"Centralized" over thousands of validators? lol
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
that system sucks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:44 PM
Can you expand on that?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"Centralized" over thousands of validators? lol
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:44 PM
a thousand vs a half million yes that is centralized
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
a thousand vs a half million yes that is centralized
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:44 PM
No it's not.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Can you expand on that?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:45 PM
there is no positive action in that system just negatives
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No it's not.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:45 PM
if ya'll are upto the task, then it works for me. the people have the option to form together and fund their own validators
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
there is no positive action in that system just negatives
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:45 PM
Yes there is. Positive: You're in CG and make rewards.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
if ya'll are upto the task, then it works for me. the people have the option to form together and fund their own validators
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:45 PM
Ya'll? I'm not a validator 🙂
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By acknowledging that you need a validator to emit challenges, you are complying to a model where validators can exert other types of pressures on the rest of the network
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes there is. Positive: You're in CG and make rewards.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:46 PM
that's a positive reward, not in the grading of that penalty score.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ya'll? I'm not a validator 🙂
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:46 PM
they*
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:46 PM
Yeah, lots of people set up validator pools 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, lots of people set up validator pools 🙂
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:46 PM
we've been organizing one.
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14:46
figure 50 of us split the stake
14:46
assign a board, and run it
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
figure 50 of us split the stake
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:47 PM
Nice! 🙂
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 2:47 PM
NA joint venture
14:47
only reason i dont rally against this, as it doesnt stop the people from taking what control they desire to dedicate the time and resources too
14:47
it only becomes an us(hotspots) vs them (validators) if the hotspot owners let it
14:48
nothing stops a validator from buying hotspots, and vice versa
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And with hip55 nothing will stop a validator from putting a minimal staking fee for miners to use the network (example)
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Drunfos
And with hip55 nothing will stop a validator from putting a minimal staking fee for miners to use the network (example)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:50 PM
Sorry, not following what you're trying to say.
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If you need a challenge to beacon, and you need to beacon to witness (hip54)
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Drunfos
And with hip55 nothing will stop a validator from putting a minimal staking fee for miners to use the network (example)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:52 PM
You know the validators could stop all POC rewards already, right?
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So your saying that theres no intent as of now
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Drunfos
So your saying that theres no intent as of now
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:57 PM
The validators are not going to charge hotspots to process POC
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Drunfos
And with hip55 nothing will stop a validator from putting a minimal staking fee for miners to use the network (example)
No. Hotspots will have a choice of what validator that use for typical operations.
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PaulM
No. Hotspots will have a choice of what validator that use for typical operations.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:57 PM
That too
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If a validator if ignoring your hotspot, you can always switch
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@Drunfos the network is broken. It's not working. If you want a fully distributed model then you can have a perfectly equal share of nothing. I can't offer a technical alternative, so I'm comfortable allowing those with the resources and expertise to take a fair share for the value they provide, and I get to share in that success proportionately with what I provide (a rooftop and minimal investment).
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PaulM
If a validator if ignoring your hotspot, you can always switch
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 2:58 PM
Just to be clear, a validator doing that would trigger penalties, right?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Just to be clear, a validator doing that would trigger penalties, right?
Not initially. There was talk of down the road, using "attestation" information to either further reward validators for that service or punish them for not doing it well (edited)
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15:00
This goes back to my concern. The hip adds work for validators to support light hotspots (in addition and separate from the challenge creation) which has no incentive system in this proposal
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malder
@Drunfos the network is broken. It's not working. If you want a fully distributed model then you can have a perfectly equal share of nothing. I can't offer a technical alternative, so I'm comfortable allowing those with the resources and expertise to take a fair share for the value they provide, and I get to share in that success proportionately with what I provide (a rooftop and minimal investment).
You can, and you should, try and compreend different aproaches to the proposal. Im actually here to engage and enjoying the responses @PaulM is giving..
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PaulM
This goes back to my concern. The hip adds work for validators to support light hotspots (in addition and separate from the challenge creation) which has no incentive system in this proposal
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:01 PM
How so? It's the same work hotspots are doing now. Why would there be additional rewards for the same work?
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CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:02 PM
Wouldn’t this change indirectly deincentivise isolated hotspot placement as challenging rewards will be lost?
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PaulM
This goes back to my concern. The hip adds work for validators to support light hotspots (in addition and separate from the challenge creation) which has no incentive system in this proposal
I wouldn't say there is "no" incentive. The incentive is to do the work with a high level of service in order to maximize the performance and uptime of the network. Since all validators are by definition large HNT holders, they should want to maximize the value of HNT by keeping the network running smoothly.
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CFHeadphase
Wouldn’t this change indirectly deincentivise isolated hotspot placement as challenging rewards will be lost?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:02 PM
Yep. "Lone Wolf" installs will get nothing but DC rewards.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How so? It's the same work hotspots are doing now. Why would there be additional rewards for the same work?
Light hotspots will depend on validators for packet routing information, notifying them of when their hex was challenged and which CG member to send PoC/witnesses to. They do all that themselves today.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yep. "Lone Wolf" installs will get nothing but DC rewards.
CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:03 PM
Which will likely be none… (edited)
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PaulM
Light hotspots will depend on validators for packet routing information, notifying them of when their hex was challenged and which CG member to send PoC/witnesses to. They do all that themselves today.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:03 PM
Right... so same rewards. 🙂
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rawrmaan
I wouldn't say there is "no" incentive. The incentive is to do the work with a high level of service in order to maximize the performance and uptime of the network. Since all validators are by definition large HNT holders, they should want to maximize the value of HNT by keeping the network running smoothly.
Yes, I subscribe to that philosophy. I can't speak for all validator operators. We've seen with PoC, if there is a way to game, people will do it.
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CFHeadphase
Which will likely be none… (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:04 PM
Yep. Usefulness to the network = rewards.
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CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:04 PM
Wider coverage is useful to the network
15:04
Having 30 hotspots in one hex is the opposite of useful
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Also, we've seen poorly configured validators. Without a direct incentive system (penalties or rewards), there is no signal for individual validator operators to configure their setup correct to support validators
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CFHeadphase
Wider coverage is useful to the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:05 PM
Only if that coverage is used. You don't get rewards just for existing. 😉
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CFHeadphase
Wouldn’t this change indirectly deincentivise isolated hotspot placement as challenging rewards will be lost?
Is there really any incentive now? What's the ROI on a hotspot earning only challenger rewards? Far far better in that situation to buy two hotspots and have them witness each other with maximum witness rewards. And those rewards would be more reliable (and should be higher) after this HIP.
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PaulM
Yes, I subscribe to that philosophy. I can't speak for all validator operators. We've seen with PoC, if there is a way to game, people will do it.
I think we can pretty safely assume that most validator operators will not be going out of their way to not provide gRPC. It's just really hard to cryptographically verify this stuff. I think at some level there is an implicit trust/good will component to running a validator
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Only if that coverage is used. You don't get rewards just for existing. 😉
CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:05 PM
People won’t adopt Helium if coverage isn’t already there
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PaulM
Also, we've seen poorly configured validators. Without a direct incentive system (penalties or rewards), there is no signal for individual validator operators to configure their setup correct to support validators
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:06 PM
Agreed. Underperforming Validators need to be penalized in favor of well performing ones. 🙂
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rawrmaan
I think we can pretty safely assume that most validator operators will not be going out of their way to not provide gRPC. It's just really hard to cryptographically verify this stuff. I think at some level there is an implicit trust/good will component to running a validator
At minimum, it will require opening another port that is not required today.
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malder
Is there really any incentive now? What's the ROI on a hotspot earning only challenger rewards? Far far better in that situation to buy two hotspots and have them witness each other with maximum witness rewards. And those rewards would be more reliable (and should be higher) after this HIP.
CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:07 PM
Sure, but hotspot supply is still severely limited
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CFHeadphase
People won’t adopt Helium if coverage isn’t already there
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:07 PM
So install more hotspots.
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I think it's safe to assume that most validator operators will open the port. And if/when we see that they refuse to do so, we can take it from there. As Abhay said on the call, in this scenario, Helium Inc. will gladly serve the gRPC traffic until a better solution is invented
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CFHeadphase
Sure, but hotspot supply is still severely limited
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:07 PM
Not really
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So install more hotspots.
CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:07 PM
Bobcat’s lead time is now 30 weeks
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:08 PM
And light hotspots opens the floodgates for more hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And light hotspots opens the floodgates for more hotspots.
CFHeadphase 02/17/2022 3:08 PM
That’s true
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CFHeadphase
Bobcat’s lead time is now 30 weeks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:08 PM
You can literally order sensecaps that will arrive in March right now. 🤷‍♂️
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rawrmaan
I think it's safe to assume that most validator operators will open the port. And if/when we see that they refuse to do so, we can take it from there. As Abhay said on the call, in this scenario, Helium Inc. will gladly serve the gRPC traffic until a better solution is invented
I hope you are right. I really want light hotspots. I also want to make sure validators have the proper incentives to support them. The network shouldn't have to rely on Helium Inc running infrastructure.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:14 PM
As an aside, did anyone get a notification from the app about these votes? I did not.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As an aside, did anyone get a notification from the app about these votes? I did not.
Should be rolling out. I personally haven’t gotten it yet.
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Joey
Should be rolling out. I personally haven’t gotten it yet.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:21 PM
I'll try to remember to raise the flag if something doesn't come in by tomorrow. 🙂
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15:23
(added to my calendar so I'll actually remember. 😅 )
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As an aside, did anyone get a notification from the app about these votes? I did not.
captainhindsight 02/17/2022 3:28 PM
Not me. Gonna be even worse when each vendor has their own app
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So, PoC is what originally attracted many miners to helium...this was similar to Pow in asic mining. I think if this HIP 55 is approved, the validators will have an overwhelming amount of power and responsibility. We will lose decentralization. (edited)
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Sociotter
So, PoC is what originally attracted many miners to helium...this was similar to Pow in asic mining. I think if this HIP 55 is approved, the validators will have an overwhelming amount of power and responsibility. We will lose decentralization. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:33 PM
We just discussed this. They already do. They could shut down everything if they wished, but they can't and won't. Because it's decentralized...
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Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:34 PM
I just voted against this
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We just discussed this. They already do. They could shut down everything if they wished, but they can't and won't. Because it's decentralized...
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped Exactly, THEY could SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING. That is sort of the problem right there.
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Sociotter
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped Exactly, THEY could SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING. That is sort of the problem right there.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:34 PM
You need to read the whole post 😉
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Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:34 PM
It seems like every HIP plan screws the miners
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Crypto_Cowboy
I just voted against this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:34 PM
Why, if you don't mind me asking?
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Sociotter
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped Exactly, THEY could SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING. That is sort of the problem right there.
That has always, and will always, be the case. That's how any blockchain works.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why, if you don't mind me asking?
Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:35 PM
No more challenge rewards
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Crypto_Cowboy
It seems like every HIP plan screws the miners
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:35 PM
How are we screwed? Light hotspots fixed a ton of problems that affects miners.
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Crypto_Cowboy
No more challenge rewards
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:35 PM
Dude... 0.9% is nothing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How are we screwed? Light hotspots fixed a ton of problems that affects miners.
Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:35 PM
Care to enlighten me? I haven’t had any trouble.
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rawrmaan
That has always, and will always, be the case. That's how any blockchain works.
Exactly...Seems similar to Etherium's switch from PoW to PoS...centralization of the wealthy at the cost of the poor!
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Crypto_Cowboy
Care to enlighten me? I haven’t had any trouble.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:36 PM
p2p, relays, port forwarding, the 30%-50% of poc that is currently dropped...
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:36 PM
We really should find ways of increasing the rewards of the Hotspots which halved 3 times on top of the halvening in August. This is the opposite taking responsibility and rewards away from the hotspots. If we can’t find a way to increase the rewards it won’t be profitable by the actual rate in 2-3 Months. And I need to shit down my fleet of Hotspots and find some idiots that didn’t get the news that it’s not worth it anymore to sell em all.
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Sociotter
Exactly...Seems similar to Etherium's switch from PoW to PoS...centralization of the wealthy at the cost of the poor!
This changes nothing about the consensus algorithm. It's nothing like the change you're citing
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
We really should find ways of increasing the rewards of the Hotspots which halved 3 times on top of the halvening in August. This is the opposite taking responsibility and rewards away from the hotspots. If we can’t find a way to increase the rewards it won’t be profitable by the actual rate in 2-3 Months. And I need to shit down my fleet of Hotspots and find some idiots that didn’t get the news that it’s not worth it anymore to sell em all.
Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:37 PM
This is what I’m worried about.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
We really should find ways of increasing the rewards of the Hotspots which halved 3 times on top of the halvening in August. This is the opposite taking responsibility and rewards away from the hotspots. If we can’t find a way to increase the rewards it won’t be profitable by the actual rate in 2-3 Months. And I need to shit down my fleet of Hotspots and find some idiots that didn’t get the news that it’s not worth it anymore to sell em all.
The way to increase the reward is by getting more devices on the network that will use data credits and thus cause increased compensation by raising HNT's value. For anyone who has a miner, your rewards in HNT terms will always decrease over time, from now until infinity. That's how the economics of this network have always been (edited)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
We really should find ways of increasing the rewards of the Hotspots which halved 3 times on top of the halvening in August. This is the opposite taking responsibility and rewards away from the hotspots. If we can’t find a way to increase the rewards it won’t be profitable by the actual rate in 2-3 Months. And I need to shit down my fleet of Hotspots and find some idiots that didn’t get the news that it’s not worth it anymore to sell em all.
Crypto_Cowboy 02/17/2022 3:38 PM
The only saving grace is that there are a lot of people who can’t/won’t set their miners up properly and those who can will continue to reap most of the rewards.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
We really should find ways of increasing the rewards of the Hotspots which halved 3 times on top of the halvening in August. This is the opposite taking responsibility and rewards away from the hotspots. If we can’t find a way to increase the rewards it won’t be profitable by the actual rate in 2-3 Months. And I need to shit down my fleet of Hotspots and find some idiots that didn’t get the news that it’s not worth it anymore to sell em all.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:38 PM
Yeah, increase the price of HNT. Increasing the rewards will just devalue the coin.
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rawrmaan
The way to increase the reward is by getting more devices on the network that will use data credits and thus cause increased compensation by raising HNT's value. For anyone who has a miner, your rewards in HNT terms will always decrease over time, from now until infinity. That's how the economics of this network have always been (edited)
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:39 PM
And this happens way to slow, that’s why we need chainvars to increase PoC activity or Rewards in general or reducing the rewards of HST Owners
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
And this happens way to slow, that’s why we need chainvars to increase PoC activity or Rewards in general or reducing the rewards of HST Owners
Those chain vars have no impact on the actual amount you earn over time. (edited)
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15:40
What WILL have an impact is approving the HIP and converting all hotspots to light hotspots. Then your earnings will be much more consistent.
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rawrmaan
The way to increase the reward is by getting more devices on the network that will use data credits and thus cause increased compensation by raising HNT's value. For anyone who has a miner, your rewards in HNT terms will always decrease over time, from now until infinity. That's how the economics of this network have always been (edited)
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:40 PM
So you want to tell me the rewards had to halven 4 times from 300000 to 500000 Hotspots? (edited)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
So you want to tell me the rewards had to halven 4 times from 300000 to 500000 Hotspots? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:41 PM
Active hotspots count, not total on the chain...
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Rewards have not moved that much. Your individual hotspot's performance is not indicative of the wider network
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rawrmaan
Rewards have not moved that much. Your individual hotspot's performance is not indicative of the wider network
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:41 PM
I have 45 Hotspots so I clearly see a pattern
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rawrmaan
Rewards have not moved that much. Your individual hotspot's performance is not indicative of the wider network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:42 PM
Well... hang on now. That's not true. The total rewards per day over my fleet have dropped significantly in recent months.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:42 PM
It halved exactly 3 times since the actual Halvening in August
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As an aside, did anyone get a notification from the app about these votes? I did not.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 3:42 PM
It just woke me up lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:42 PM
As have the whole network based on the charts (I wish ETL was back up! heh )
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Looks like some people are complaining more for the rewards there earning than the overall success for Helium. If moving POC to validators is better for the network for substantially and scalability, I'm for it. We currently have more validators than majority of these POS networks.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:43 PM
From 3 HNT to 0.75 HNT a day for my best Hotspot
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Guru
Looks like some people are complaining more for the rewards there earning than the overall success for Helium. If moving POC to validators is better for the network for substantially and scalability, I'm for it. We currently have more validators than majority of these POS networks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:44 PM
One is linked to the other. Let's be real here. 🙂
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15:44
Not saying the move isn't good for the network and good for everyone by extension.
15:45
The upside of this is well worth 0.9%
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:45 PM
I think nobody will continue to host a Hotspot if the rewards dropped to 1$ a day Better sell it to an idiot that will make 1$ a day (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:46 PM
Works out to around, on average, 3 cents a day? Yeah, I'll pay that gladly.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
One is linked to the other. Let's be real here. 🙂
Over 80K of Hotpsots are being added per month to the network with over 3 million on back order. These rewards will always be unsustainable. With or without this move to validators
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
I think nobody will continue to host a Hotspot if the rewards dropped to 1$ a day Better sell it to an idiot that will make 1$ a day (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:47 PM
OH!! I just looked. Your role is not a validator! lol The role color is so similar! 😆 (edited)
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Guru
Over 80K of Hotpsots are being added per month to the network with over 3 million on back order. These rewards will always be unsustainable. With or without this move to validators
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:47 PM
Wrong the latest chainvariables decreased it even further by 25-40%
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:47 PM
makes so much more sense now 😄
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:49 PM
It halved 3 times from 300.000 to 500.000 If it halves 3 times again from 500.000 to 700.000 Helium will ultimately die, take it as a guaranty
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rawrmaan
I think it's safe to assume that most validator operators will open the port. And if/when we see that they refuse to do so, we can take it from there. As Abhay said on the call, in this scenario, Helium Inc. will gladly serve the gRPC traffic until a better solution is invented
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 3:49 PM
okay, so there is a plan B in case of problems.
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I'm curious, are there any validators that will vote "no" on hip-55
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Sociotter
I'm curious, are there any validators that will vote "no" on hip-55
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:50 PM
Good question.
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Sociotter
I'm curious, are there any validators that will vote "no" on hip-55
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:51 PM
Do you want to earn even more HNT yes or no? Hard question
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rawrmaan
Rewards have not moved that much. Your individual hotspot's performance is not indicative of the wider network
Hi, in which HIP we proposed to reduce the max witness from 18 to 14?
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zee37
Hi, in which HIP we proposed to reduce the max witness from 18 to 14?
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:52 PM
This I would like to know as well
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Sociotter
I'm curious, are there any validators that will vote "no" on hip-55
Obviously no 😂
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That's mathematically false. It reduced 40% in that period. However, it's possible that your hotspot(s) are seeing decreased rewards beyond the mean, and that it's likely not your fault
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:52 PM
I still propose this becomes a new service instead of being a validator role... blockchain-challenger and anyone should be able to run one. You have to stake some amount of HNT to be a part of it
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15:52
Piling everything onto the validators is just going to ultimately have the same end result in scaling
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zee37
Hi, in which HIP we proposed to reduce the max witness from 18 to 14?
There wasn't one. That was changed by the Helium core team to increase the reliability for the network. It has no material effect on earnings over time.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I still propose this becomes a new service instead of being a validator role... blockchain-challenger and anyone should be able to run one. You have to stake some amount of HNT to be a part of it
Interesting idea. You can definitely write a HIP for that
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rawrmaan
There wasn't one. That was changed by the Helium core team to increase the reliability for the network. It has no material effect on earnings over time.
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:53 PM
You must be joking
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rawrmaan
Interesting idea. You can definitely write a HIP for that
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:53 PM
wouldnt make it in time for this hip though
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
You must be joking
PoC chain variable have never required HIPs and have been changed many times. That's because these variable don't impact the earnings of hotspots, but rather can be tweaked to make the network more stable for everyone. It's a pure positive.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I still propose this becomes a new service instead of being a validator role... blockchain-challenger and anyone should be able to run one. You have to stake some amount of HNT to be a part of it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:55 PM
Anyone can be a validator...
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rawrmaan
There wasn't one. That was changed by the Helium core team to increase the reliability for the network. It has no material effect on earnings over time.
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:55 PM
100% of the Hotspots saw the impact on earnings until today, don’t try to fool anyone
facepalm 3
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
100% of the Hotspots saw the impact on earnings until today, don’t try to fool anyone
There are definitely many network issues that are impacting hotspot earnings, but this isn't one of them. It's unrelated
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Anyone can be a validator...
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:55 PM
with lots of cash though ... that statement is loaded 😉 ... ANYONE can run a hotspot, not everyone can be a validator though
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
100% of the Hotspots saw the impact on earnings until today, don’t try to fool anyone
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:55 PM
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 3:55 PM
My hotspots have earned the same amount from dec-february, so no 100% have not seen a loss
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
with lots of cash though ... that statement is loaded 😉 ... ANYONE can run a hotspot, not everyone can be a validator though
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:56 PM
There are pools.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are pools.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:56 PM
but that doesnt make you a challenger though 😉
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
but that doesnt make you a challenger though 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:56 PM
Yes it does.
15:56
Or at least the pool you are in
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
My hotspots have earned the same amount from dec-february, so no 100% have not seen a loss
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:56 PM
Yes you are a unique super pony, so 99% saw it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes it does.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:57 PM
I see, so you're saying that those rewards would be shared like the cg rewards are?
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rawrmaan
There wasn't one. That was changed by the Helium core team to increase the reliability for the network. It has no material effect on earnings over time.
One thing is for sure that it reduces our witnessing list which indeed reduced our reward. So, Obviously it has a materialistic effect on our reward as well as on our trust.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I see, so you're saying that those rewards would be shared like the cg rewards are?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:57 PM
Yes 🙂
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
Yes you are a unique super pony, so 99% saw it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 3:58 PM
Hard data > your guessing
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 3:58 PM
FWIW i havent voted on this yet. lol still debating it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hard data > your guessing
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 3:59 PM
I have 45 Hotspots and I’m monitoring hundreds of Hotspots in Germany
15:59
Your guessing = I don’t care
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zee37
One thing is for sure that it reduces our witnessing list which indeed reduced our reward. So, Obviously it has a materialistic effect on our reward as well as on our trust.
It only reduces witnesses per challenge, not total witnesses. You can still obtain the same total amount of unique witnesses over time. Since everyone in the network witnesses less by the same amount, the net effect is zero on any individual hotspot. (edited)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
I have 45 Hotspots and I’m monitoring hundreds of Hotspots in Germany
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:00 PM
45 vs 540,000+ 😆
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
45 vs 540,000+ 😆
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:01 PM
So what was the Network average in August after the Halvening? If you talk about facts you better have facts in place
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rawrmaan
It only reduces witnesses per challenge, not total witnesses. You can still obtain the same total amount of unique witnesses over time. Since everyone in the network witnesses less by the same amount, the net effect is zero on any individual hotspot. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:01 PM
Just adds to variance for each individual. Small sample sizes for the lose. 😉
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
So what was the Network average in August after the Halvening? If you talk about facts you better have facts in place
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:01 PM
You know, I might actually have a screenshot still.. hang on...
16:02
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@DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ You is a savage haha
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rawrmaan
It only reduces witnesses per challenge, not total witnesses. You can still obtain the same total amount of unique witnesses over time. Since everyone in the network witnesses less by the same amount, the net effect is zero on any individual hotspot. (edited)
Over time yes. But for current state of network: No (assuming no change in number of hotspot in certain area)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:02 PM
That would be great, Total amount of Hotspots and average Network rewards to correlate
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:03 PM
We weren't even at 100k hotspots total on chain yet
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rawrmaan
It only reduces witnesses per challenge, not total witnesses. You can still obtain the same total amount of unique witnesses over time. Since everyone in the network witnesses less by the same amount, the net effect is zero on any individual hotspot. (edited)
Anyway, thanks for your feedback. Have a great day. Enjoy 😊
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
That would be great, Total amount of Hotspots and average Network rewards to correlate
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:03 PM
Sadly until the ETL is back up I can't get current data 🙂 (edited)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:04 PM
So we went from 0.59 to 0.14 Does this sound like a healthy way the Network goes? From 300.000 to 500.000??
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
So we went from 0.59 to 0.14 Does this sound like a healthy way the Network goes? From 300.000 to 500.000??
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:04 PM
300 to 500? What?
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:05 PM
So reaching 700.000 Hotspots it will be 0.035 HNT a day on average
16:05
Does this sound like a selfsustaining network growth?
16:06
In 1.5-3 Months
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
Does this sound like a selfsustaining network growth?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:06 PM
What does that really have to do with this HIP?
16:06
Also, your math is wrong.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:06 PM
This HIP is part of the problem
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Those numbers are wrong. 66% growth in hotspots = 66% decrease in earnings per hotspot on average. It's that simple. Your hotspot may see more or less change than that, but is not representative of the total network.
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
Do you want to earn even more HNT yes or no? Hard question
Do you want to earn even more HNT yes or no? Hard question
I run some validators, not sure if I'm voting yes or no yet. I have similar concerns as PaulM about the HIP as written. This PoC pool is trivial compared to the monthly operating costs, stake, and CG rewards for a validator. My concern is the extra load this puts on CG members might cause perf problems and slow down block production.
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And yes, this is completely unrelated to this HIP. The only economic change in this HIP is moving 0.9% more rewards to the validators, so they go from 6% to 6.9%
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:07 PM
Im extrapolating the reduction from 0.59 to 0.14 HNT a day. What would be your math?
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
Im extrapolating the reduction from 0.59 to 0.14 HNT a day. What would be your math?
You're looking at the wrong time range. The graph posted ends when there are 140,000 hotspots on the network. Nobody can grab the latest data right now because the website with the graphs is offline
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
Im extrapolating the reduction from 0.59 to 0.14 HNT a day. What would be your math?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:08 PM
Each additional hotspot (active) drops the % less than the one before it.
16:09
AKA the slope flattens out
16:10
We've seen large changes in part because hotspots that were on chain, but inactive (not getting rewards) were fixed. You can't look at total hotspots vs rewards.
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16:10
you have to look at active hotspots.
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rawrmaan
Those numbers are wrong. 66% growth in hotspots = 66% decrease in earnings per hotspot on average. It's that simple. Your hotspot may see more or less change than that, but is not representative of the total network.
DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:16 PM
I know your theoretical fantasy model. But rewards are at 25% from august after Halvening from Network Average 0.59 to 0.14. At the same rate we will be at 0.035 HNT average a Day hitting 750.000 Hotspots. So the coin price needs to 6x in the next 3 Months, otherwise Helium isn’t selfsustaining but instead dieing slowly. And the latest chainvars added to this problem. (edited)
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
I know your theoretical fantasy model. But rewards are at 25% from august after Halvening from Network Average 0.59 to 0.14. At the same rate we will be at 0.035 HNT average a Day hitting 750.000 Hotspots. So the coin price needs to 6x in the next 3 Months, otherwise Helium isn’t selfsustaining but instead dieing slowly. And the latest chainvars added to this problem. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:19 PM
It's not linear...
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡ 02/17/2022 4:20 PM
If it’s not linear it will hit maybe 0.07 HNT a day, the problem stays the same
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Jorge DoArt 02/17/2022 4:20 PM
What would be the onboarding fee for light hotspots?
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I'm confused by this being up for vote right now. Validators are struggling with load as it is. They frequently aren't processing quick enough for the network to meet the amount of rewards that are supposed to be done each epoch correct? So wouldn't this just increase their load?
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validator 1
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Jorge DoArt
What would be the onboarding fee for light hotspots?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:20 PM
Same as current hotspots
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where are you seeing that "validators are struggling with load"?
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Helium's own announcements over the past month or two.
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cokes
where are you seeing that "validators are struggling with load"?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:22 PM
They think recent issues like the "doom block" were caused by that.
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that had nothing to do with validators, but state channel disputes (edited)
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Helium announcements a while back talked about how validator strain has led to the rewards target not being met on a daily basis.
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and how long ago was that?
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DaBum
I'm confused by this being up for vote right now. Validators are struggling with load as it is. They frequently aren't processing quick enough for the network to meet the amount of rewards that are supposed to be done each epoch correct? So wouldn't this just increase their load?
This was addressed in the AMA - basically, the validators are already doing most of the work as they have to validate challenge creation anyway
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cokes
and how long ago was that?
Few weeks to a month ago I believe
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capcom
This was addressed in the AMA - basically, the validators are already doing most of the work as they have to validate challenge creation anyway
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:29 PM
So.. there are Validators in here raising concerns about the planned additional load. Can you speak to that concern? 🙂
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DaBlawb - Flere Ego Te Judico⚡
I know your theoretical fantasy model. But rewards are at 25% from august after Halvening from Network Average 0.59 to 0.14. At the same rate we will be at 0.035 HNT average a Day hitting 750.000 Hotspots. So the coin price needs to 6x in the next 3 Months, otherwise Helium isn’t selfsustaining but instead dieing slowly. And the latest chainvars added to this problem. (edited)
Not really relevant to this HIP, other than to say that some % of rewards volatility is caused by the system that this HIP seeks to replace
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So.. there are Validators in here raising concerns about the planned additional load. Can you speak to that concern? 🙂
To be clear, my concern isn't about the concept of moving PoC generation away from hotspots, I'm concerned about the HIP as written having a hex full of hotspot come check with a CG member to see if they are targeted for PoC. An in-CG validator does have a bunch of time critical work to do and a bunch of new connections can be significant extra work. (edited)
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zee37
Hi, in which HIP we proposed to reduce the max witness from 18 to 14?
It used to be 5, then it was 25, then it was 18, then it was 14. I’d expect it to change again in the future. None of the changes involved any HIPs
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@capcom why so long for this hip to come out? Teams been working on light gateways for a long time. One week for the community to understand and vote feels rushed. I totally support light hotspots. There is a lot of nuance in the specific implementation for the community to absorb.
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PaulM
@capcom why so long for this hip to come out? Teams been working on light gateways for a long time. One week for the community to understand and vote feels rushed. I totally support light hotspots. There is a lot of nuance in the specific implementation for the community to absorb.
I think we wanted to get more of the implementation finalized before having a HIP to vote on
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capcom
I think we wanted to get more of the implementation finalized before having a HIP to vote on
HIP with code? whaaa? 😉
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Leave that mostly to @hashc0de I wasn’t really involved in the timing or execution
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krby
HIP with code? whaaa? 😉
A novel concept!
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krby
HIP with code? whaaa? 😉
There's also temperature check votes now apparently.
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Would be nice to talk through the implementation specifics and alternatives longer, though. I couldn't make the AMA this week. 5 days until vote is closed is Tuesday. In there is the weekend plus a likely-for-most US holiday on Monday. (edited)
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krby
Would be nice to talk through the implementation specifics and alternatives longer, though. I couldn't make the AMA this week. 5 days until vote is closed is Tuesday. In there is the weekend plus a likely-for-most US holiday on Monday. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:39 PM
Holiday = All day free to debate and vote! 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Holiday = All day free to debate and vote! 😉
I should have been explicit. I don't expect the HIP authors or others on the core team to be avail for debate Sat thru Mon.
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krby
I should have been explicit. I don't expect the HIP authors or others on the core team to be avail for debate Sat thru Mon.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:41 PM
ahh gotcha 🙂
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16:45
my attempted reddit summary
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:46 PM
Every HIP should have a ELI5 section 🙂
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capcom
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:46 PM
Wouldn't a firewall still block incoming challenges from a validator?
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the requests are outbound from the hotspot, so no
cokes pinned a message to this channel. 02/17/2022 4:47 PM
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capcom
the requests are outbound from the hotspot, so no
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:47 PM
Ah right. 🙂
16:48
goes back to re-read the HIP again 😅
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Hip-54 was easy
16:48
Can’t decide what’s happening with hip-55
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indyitgeek
Can’t decide what’s happening with hip-55
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:48 PM
Capcom just gave a really nice summary above
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Are we sure? No more sd card issues?
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quite sure yes
16:50
the only reason they exist today is all the thrashing related to storing the entire blockchain, peerbook, etc
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honestly amazing the SD cards last as long as they do with all the I/O they handle
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Silly question. So the validators are like 10k
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16:51
Right?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:51 PM
yep
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And I don’t own one
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capcom
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:52 PM
No more relayed hotspots, just relayed validators, Less SD card issues, Hotspots will be cheaper to make, doesn't mean they will sell for any cheaper. market price is double to triple what distributor price is. doubt that it works out to .9% less rewards, if the top half proves true, it will be more rewards for those with well functioning setups (edited)
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indyitgeek
And I don’t own one
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:52 PM
You can always join a pool to have a share of one.
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And looking at the return on investment
16:52
I should have. Lol
16:52
So how does this change help them
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
No more relayed hotspots, just relayed validators, Less SD card issues, Hotspots will be cheaper to make, doesn't mean they will sell for any cheaper. market price is double to triple what distributor price is. doubt that it works out to .9% less rewards, if the top half proves true, it will be more rewards for those with well functioning setups (edited)
validators are already heavily incentivized to not be relayed, and even if they are, the requests from hotspots come via grpc not libp2p so the entire flow is simpler and more reliable. it's not 9% less, it's 0.9%. that's what you earn today for creating challenges (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
No more relayed hotspots, just relayed validators, Less SD card issues, Hotspots will be cheaper to make, doesn't mean they will sell for any cheaper. market price is double to triple what distributor price is. doubt that it works out to .9% less rewards, if the top half proves true, it will be more rewards for those with well functioning setups (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:53 PM
*0.9%
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I’m not saying I don’t get what your saying
16:53
Ok. I’m cool
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16:53
Yes on hip-55
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capcom
validators are already heavily incentivized to not be relayed, and even if they are, the requests from hotspots come via grpc not libp2p so the entire flow is simpler and more reliable. it's not 9% less, it's 0.9%. that's what you earn today for creating challenges (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:53 PM
typo sorry
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16:54
but challenges = less than .01% of my actual earnings, so
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16:54
if this works out right, my earnings should at the worst drop .01%
16:55
i'd bet i earn more, vs whatever i lose to relayed hotspots challenging me
16:55
or challenging relayed hotspots
16:55
but im going to invest in a validator/pool and earn on both sides, instead of just bitching 😛
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So what does the validating do
16:56
Validator
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indyitgeek
Validator
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:56 PM
when the hip passes, they will do the challenging, and remove the relayed and sync issues
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But isn’t the point of the challenges to validate the hotspot?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:57 PM
they get 0.9% epoch rewards for this. same hotspots used to get for doing the challenging, so same pay but more work.
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Makes sense
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:57 PM
hmm.. if this data is correct, my fleet earns 2.56% of my daily earnings from Challenging.
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What’s the point of challenges
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:58 PM
I wonder why that's so far from 0.9% (edited)
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indyitgeek
What’s the point of challenges
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:58 PM
for now proving network coverage and reliability
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indyitgeek
What’s the point of challenges
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:58 PM
Challenges tell your hotspot to send out a beacon.
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Ok.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I wonder why that's so far from 0.9% (edited)
redistribution from the packet transfer pool (up to 35%) (edited)
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cokes
redistribution from the packet transfer pool (up to 35%) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:58 PM
ahhh 🙂
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indyitgeek
And I don’t own one
It’s 10k HNT so current price is $25 you need about $250,000 to be a validator. If I’m incorrect please someone share some light
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Challenges tell your hotspot to send out a beacon.
So if this is removed, how will this happen?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
hmm.. if this data is correct, my fleet earns 2.56% of my daily earnings from Challenging.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 4:59 PM
but what part of challenging, is that putting your challenging and challenged rewards together?
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cokes
redistribution from the packet transfer pool (up to 35%) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 4:59 PM
Will that also go to validators with this shift, or will the packet transfer pool still go to hotspot rewards?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Will that also go to validators with this shift, or will the packet transfer pool still go to hotspot rewards?
Good question
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JS
It’s 10k HNT so current price is $25 you need about $250,000 to be a validator. If I’m incorrect please someone share some light
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:00 PM
you can pool together, or join a pool etc
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indyitgeek
So if this is removed, how will this happen?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:00 PM
The validators will send out the challenges instead of hotspots. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The validators will send out the challenges instead of hotspots. 🙂
Oh.
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17:00
Yea. Vote yes
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:00 PM
it's 10k hnt to run your own diy validator, more to have someone run it for you, less if it is split amongst a group
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They need to explain it better
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Will that also go to validators with this shift, or will the packet transfer pool still go to hotspot rewards?
nothing changes
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capcom
nothing changes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:01 PM
So stays with hotspots. 🙂 (edited)
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I feel like there might be some nuances we are missing though?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:01 PM
that is an important note, people should know
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indyitgeek
I feel like there might be some nuances we are missing though?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:01 PM
i feel like people are not as involved in their investments as they should be
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indyitgeek
I feel like there might be some nuances we are missing though?
have you read the HIP? it is quite detailed about the nuances
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i feel like people are not as involved in their investments as they should be
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:02 PM
There are always all different levels of involvement. 😉
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indyitgeek
I feel like there might be some nuances we are missing though?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:02 PM
in the $ scheme of things, if people want that income, invest in validators or validator pools. either way this seems to better the network, for the long term
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Uhh. I bought the damn thing not as an invest but because I wanted to use my sensors
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capcom
have you read the HIP? it is quite detailed about the nuances
I know. I just don’t understand them
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indyitgeek
Uhh. I bought the damn thing not as an invest but because I wanted to use my sensors
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:02 PM
not aimed at you.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
not aimed at you.
Thanks
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indyitgeek
I know. I just don’t understand them
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:03 PM
for your sensors this makes everything better and faster
17:03
less strain on the hotspots, transfering your data
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The sensors are amazing. I want coverage will this help
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indyitgeek
The sensors are amazing. I want coverage will this help
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:03 PM
More stable network, so yes 🙂
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indyitgeek
The sensors are amazing. I want coverage will this help
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:03 PM
if the validators hold up there end, and they are paid to do so, yes.
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If?
17:04
Haha
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:04 PM
🙂
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What’s that?
17:04
Denylist I am familiar with
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:05 PM
It's why i'm finding people to back a validator with me, so we can control at least one if not a pool of validators, then i dont have to worry if they do, I get to make sure the validator is working (by me i mean i pay someone smarter than me to do it)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
It's why i'm finding people to back a validator with me, so we can control at least one if not a pool of validators, then i dont have to worry if they do, I get to make sure the validator is working (by me i mean i pay someone smarter than me to do it)
Understood
17:05
Denylist is a good thing I think. But I know there have been some issues with it
17:06
I know that hip-54 was easy. Especially as it relates to inactive hot spots
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:06 PM
No, that's #hip-40-validator-denylist
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, that's #hip-40-validator-denylist
So this won’t change that?
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indyitgeek
So this won’t change that?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:07 PM
This has no effect on the denylist.
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Ok. Cool.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:13 PM
not once hip40 passes.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:16 PM
anyone know why the app isnt notifying about the vote this time? swore it did last time we had the vote and temp check vote...
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
anyone know why the app isnt notifying about the vote this time? swore it did last time we had the vote and temp check vote...
IndianDarkHorse 02/17/2022 5:21 PM
I just got a notification before 15 mins.
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IndianDarkHorse
I just got a notification before 15 mins.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:21 PM
is a few days left to vote, perhaps that is why no notification yet
17:23
now to figure out how to make the miners select the validators i want it too. everytime ya'll fix something, i get more work. 😛
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I don't think the survey is fair. HIP 55 will be only good for validators and for sure these guys vote for it amd they have high ammount of HNT as an validator. when u check the votes,half of these are against it but are only weighted with 6%. for all those who have waited 5 months for their miners its a decrease on earnings when valfiators now challenge and low priced light miner floated the marked. in my opinition this survey isnt fair because its ranked on how much HNT you have and not what the community overall wants!!! (edited)
10k 1
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So i shouldn’t vote for 55 if I dont own about 100k worth hnt 😅😅….. don’t understand that shit 😂
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I’d be baffled if anyone who really understood the pros and cons could vote no here
17:30
but, I am often baffled
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Plenox
I don't think the survey is fair. HIP 55 will be only good for validators and for sure these guys vote for it amd they have high ammount of HNT as an validator. when u check the votes,half of these are against it but are only weighted with 6%. for all those who have waited 5 months for their miners its a decrease on earnings when valfiators now challenge and low priced light miner floated the marked. in my opinition this survey isnt fair because its ranked on how much HNT you have and not what the community overall wants!!! (edited)
17:32
there’s even an argument it’s worse for validators
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To everyone voting on HIP 55: There's been an update to the Helium Vote description for the HIP 55 vote. It dramatically clarifies the changes that this HIP entails. Please give it a read if you're confused about what exactly is going on with this vote. https://heliumvote.com/14Rjhhz1DXLVmSRdzappqWgD6rfgu6XYxmdaSCvWLyLH8ZWbciK (edited)
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rawrmaan pinned a message to this channel. 02/17/2022 5:32 PM
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capcom
I’d be baffled if anyone who really understood the pros and cons could vote no here
What about yes to the concept but no to the specifics as written? PaulM had brought up concerns I share about side effects of having CG members generate PoC challenges and the incoming checks from all hotspots in a hex. (edited)
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Yea, I think there are valid technical questions/concerns
17:36
But the “validators are stealing our rewards” stuff is pretty lackluster
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capcom
But the “validators are stealing our rewards” stuff is pretty lackluster
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:37 PM
on this side of the coin specifically, i think the argument here is that it cause folks to no longer want to spread out... but i believe there are other HIP's that might address this
17:38
In other words, some people that are way out, cant get rewards other than challenges... and or maybe the occasional sent beacon
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If my fleet of hotspots are all setup correctly with port forwarding, don’t I stand to lose by this change? Those without the skill or the means to correctly setup networking will suddenly be on par with my hotspots. I realize this is selfish, but I’d wager I will be impacted negatively at least 10-15%
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17:40
Technically, this is a good HIP but not a complete win-win (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
is a few days left to vote, perhaps that is why no notification yet
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:40 PM
At least one person got it, others have not yet for some reason. 🙂
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Tommy D
If my fleet of hotspots are all setup correctly with port forwarding, don’t I stand to lose by this change? Those without the skill or the means to correctly setup networking will suddenly be on par with my hotspots. I realize this is selfish, but I’d wager I will be impacted negatively at least 10-15%
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:40 PM
In theory you should experience more rewards because there is less lag overall challenging
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Tommy D
If my fleet of hotspots are all setup correctly with port forwarding, don’t I stand to lose by this change? Those without the skill or the means to correctly setup networking will suddenly be on par with my hotspots. I realize this is selfish, but I’d wager I will be impacted negatively at least 10-15%
No because the hotspots challenging you or those that you witness can have bad setups that result in failed challenges/witnesses for you
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capcom
But the “validators are stealing our rewards” stuff is pretty lackluster
Agree, so where can i we talk through those details before the vote ends?
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Here I guess?
17:41
Or maybe #validator-ops too
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:41 PM
the vote stamps regardless though yea? So even if we pivot completely would it be too late?
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Deleted User 02/17/2022 5:41 PM
100% Yes for this.
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I keep asking and no one has replied to tell me if I'm wrong or right or anything like that Ahh. Yes. Ill try this on #validator-ops I guess
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
the vote stamps regardless though yea? So even if we pivot completely would it be too late?
I’d say changes to the implementation itself probably matter less from a vote pov?
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capcom
I’d say changes to the implementation itself probably matter less from a vote pov?
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:43 PM
Agree, just wondering if we can still influence the change once the vote has been made... essentially because the vote is for something that hasn't yet been discuss should we decide on an implementation change nowish (edited)
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Plenox
I don't think the survey is fair. HIP 55 will be only good for validators and for sure these guys vote for it amd they have high ammount of HNT as an validator. when u check the votes,half of these are against it but are only weighted with 6%. for all those who have waited 5 months for their miners its a decrease on earnings when valfiators now challenge and low priced light miner floated the marked. in my opinition this survey isnt fair because its ranked on how much HNT you have and not what the community overall wants!!! (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:46 PM
Half? It's not even 40% no votes. 🤨
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:47 PM
My biggest concern though is the overhead ... 500K down to 3K is quite a bit to take on while also producing blocks, running consensus, etc
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capcom
I’d say changes to the implementation itself probably matter less from a vote pov?
Ahhh. Many of us (I think) assume we are voting on the HIP as written. Details and all. Changing implementation details post hip vote feels unlikely? I'll move to #validator-ops later tonight.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:48 PM
To be clear, my concern isn't about the concept of moving PoC generation away from hotspots, I'm concerned about the HIP as written having a hex full of hotspot come check with a CG member to see if they are targeted for PoC. An in-CG validator does have a bunch of time critical work to do and a bunch of new connections can be significant extra work.
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Just my opinion on it, but I doubt most voters care about the very specific nuances that validator operators are worried about. Agree it would be better if it was not ambiguous though
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capcom
Just my opinion on it, but I doubt most voters care about the very specific nuances that validator operators are worried about. Agree it would be better if it was not ambiguous though
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:49 PM
Devil's in the details. They matter.
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If this passes and we subsequently realize the validator-specific implementation needs to change, we can have a vote within the validator pool. (edited)
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nickpoorman 02/17/2022 5:49 PM
This plurality voiting is going to be a problem any time a vote comes up to centralize power to the validators. I understand the benefits of this HIP and I agree with them from a computer science standpoint, but I think a 10,000 HNT minimum is going to continue to disenfranchise people. (edited)
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username checks out
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Joey
If this passes and we subsequently realize the validator-specific implementation needs to change, we can have a vote within the validator pool. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:51 PM
A vote from a small pool to override a vote by the whole community? Oh hell no. lol (yes, I get that is basically already that way since we're still using the un-passed hip41...)
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I'm speaking specifically to something like a change from moving challenge creation from consensus group to non-consensus validators.
17:52
not the whole HIP
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Joey
I'm speaking specifically to something like a change from moving challenge creation from consensus group to non-consensus validators.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:53 PM
Which I get, but the community didn't vote for that. Let's not set the precedent of altering HIPs after the fact. (edited)
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... with a vote
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Joey
... with a vote
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:54 PM
minus most of the original voters 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:55 PM
If we vote for something that doesn't/can't work, then the whole community votes for the amendment. (edited)
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if it doesn't affect the broader community, I'm not sure why they should be required to vote. It wouldn't make sense for the entire chain to vote on AS923 vs AU915, for example.
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Joey
if it doesn't affect the broader community, I'm not sure why they should be required to vote. It wouldn't make sense for the entire chain to vote on AS923 vs AU915, for example.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/17/2022 5:56 PM
mmmmm, let me stew on this one... i feel like that is a little apple to orange
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open to the input! It's just the framing I've had in my head
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Joey
if it doesn't affect the broader community, I'm not sure why they should be required to vote. It wouldn't make sense for the entire chain to vote on AS923 vs AU915, for example.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 5:57 PM
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17:58
If we're voting on something like 54 (a bug fix IMO), we would certainly vote on an alteration on a HIP like 55 🙂 (edited)
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nickpoorman
This plurality voiting is going to be a problem any time a vote comes up to centralize power to the validators. I understand the benefits of this HIP and I agree with them from a computer science standpoint, but I think a 10,000 HNT minimum is going to continue to disenfranchise people. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 5:58 PM
i dont see it that way, and i might have 12 hnt in my wallet, but i can find 50 people to pool 50 hnt and run a validator.
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nickpoorman
This plurality voiting is going to be a problem any time a vote comes up to centralize power to the validators. I understand the benefits of this HIP and I agree with them from a computer science standpoint, but I think a 10,000 HNT minimum is going to continue to disenfranchise people. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:00 PM
We can vote to lower it btw, they wanted to but got told off for it not being a vote lol
18:00
Once lgw's are in I'm a big fan of retuning to that convo, and partial staking (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i dont see it that way, and i might have 12 hnt in my wallet, but i can find 50 people to pool 50 hnt and run a validator.
nickpoorman 02/17/2022 6:02 PM
If you pool 50 people with 50 Hnt to run a validators for the sole purpose of voting against, you would still be vastly outnumbered by the other staked validators. The ratio of voters to votes is skewed in favor of validators and any HIPs that favor validators will most likely get passed by an overwhelming plurality majority in favor of validators. Again, I’m all for the changes, just point out a flaw with this voting.
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nickpoorman
If you pool 50 people with 50 Hnt to run a validators for the sole purpose of voting against, you would still be vastly outnumbered by the other staked validators. The ratio of voters to votes is skewed in favor of validators and any HIPs that favor validators will most likely get passed by an overwhelming plurality majority in favor of validators. Again, I’m all for the changes, just point out a flaw with this voting.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:03 PM
why would i vote against something that needs to happen for the network to succeed?
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nickpoorman
If you pool 50 people with 50 Hnt to run a validators for the sole purpose of voting against, you would still be vastly outnumbered by the other staked validators. The ratio of voters to votes is skewed in favor of validators and any HIPs that favor validators will most likely get passed by an overwhelming plurality majority in favor of validators. Again, I’m all for the changes, just point out a flaw with this voting.
as the risk of veering wildly off-topic, seems like a good time to call attention to this alternative: https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0041-governance-by-token-lock-v2.md
10k 1
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nickpoorman
If you pool 50 people with 50 Hnt to run a validators for the sole purpose of voting against, you would still be vastly outnumbered by the other staked validators. The ratio of voters to votes is skewed in favor of validators and any HIPs that favor validators will most likely get passed by an overwhelming plurality majority in favor of validators. Again, I’m all for the changes, just point out a flaw with this voting.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:04 PM
as to that side, if i can do it, 10(500) others can to, but that is just forming sub-centralized groups in a "decentralized" network.
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And more importantly, why the hate against validators? No blockchain without them. And I really do not see any issue in letting them create challenges. Why would you want to keep relying on a p2p network that is now way overscaled? Why would you want to have to setup portforwarding, strange VPN setups for off-grid, very difficult setups (always releayed) when you are behind a CGNAT address (mobile setups)? Why would you want to have the full blockchain on your SDcards, writing them to death every second with new blocks? You want that all just because you want that extra 0.003HNT times 3 /day for creating a challenge? What am I missing? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Once lgw's are in I'm a big fan of retuning to that convo, and partial staking (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:08 PM
lgw?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
lgw?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:08 PM
lite gate ways
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
lite gate ways
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:09 PM
Is that different than light hotspots?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:09 PM
No such thing
18:09
It's light gateways
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:09 PM
These are gateways, they just call them hotspots.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:09 PM
Oh wait
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:09 PM
Did we change names again
18:09
lol
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:10 PM
yeah they did
18:10
even though these are all loranwan gateways
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:10 PM
Lol
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 6:11 PM
idk why people see it as hotspots vs. validators... when anyone can go drop 10hnt in a validator pool
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/17/2022 6:11 PM
Hotspots run gateway-rs so
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18:12
I missclicked that sticker lol
18:12
Can't seem to remove it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I missclicked that sticker lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:12 PM
Nah, it's perfect 😄
18:13
With all you do, it 100% made sense 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:29 PM
Aww.... Why Joey? lol
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I have two questions regarding 54 and 55. Will they affect my rewards? Will I need to purchase new equipment for this 'light hotspot'? Can someone please respond...thanks
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Stanton
I have two questions regarding 54 and 55. Will they affect my rewards? Will I need to purchase new equipment for this 'light hotspot'? Can someone please respond...thanks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:51 PM
https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots/ All hotspots become "light". No new hardware required.
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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Stanton
I have two questions regarding 54 and 55. Will they affect my rewards? Will I need to purchase new equipment for this 'light hotspot'? Can someone please respond...thanks
Awards? Technically, Yes, a reduction of 0.9%. But compare that with blockchain downtime, causes one to question that. Better to take a 0.9% reduction for the benefit of a functioning blockchain. I would argue that a 0.9% reduction is a bargain. I voted positively for both HIP 54,55
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I was listening to the podcast and one of the participants mentioned the validator's role will be determining who they want to talk to such as those they think are nefarious and those who are not. How can they tell and isn't that a lot of power for a validator given our ' decentralized' approach?
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Stanton
I was listening to the podcast and one of the participants mentioned the validator's role will be determining who they want to talk to such as those they think are nefarious and those who are not. How can they tell and isn't that a lot of power for a validator given our ' decentralized' approach?
That's related to HIP40 #hip-40-validator-denylist
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18:59
Revision on that hip coming soon
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In the podcast they state it as part of 55 in terms of challenges
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Stanton
I was listening to the podcast and one of the participants mentioned the validator's role will be determining who they want to talk to such as those they think are nefarious and those who are not. How can they tell and isn't that a lot of power for a validator given our ' decentralized' approach?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 6:59 PM
They still need to have consensus on that. One validator alone can't deny a hotspot. 🙂
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Oh perhaps you're thinking #hip-54-h3dex-poc-targeting
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Stanton
In the podcast they state it as part of 55 in terms of challenges
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 7:00 PM
sounds like that podcaster was confused 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I wonder why that's so far from 0.9% (edited)
because it's .9% of that total amount of hnt distributed to all, not just .9% of what hotspots receive.
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stranqe
because it's .9% of that total amount of hnt distributed to all, not just .9% of what hotspots receive.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 7:14 PM
Cokes answered it 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Cokes answered it 🙂
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 7:34 PM
looking hnt payout % wise, the hotspots are back ahead by .01% august 2022 anyways, since the founder group lose 1% every 2 years, split to hotspots for data and poc work (edited)
19:35
and honestly there might need to be some heavy redistribution towards the validators after a decade to encourage validator growth to match network growth.
19:38
a rise in hnt price would replace the need for recalculating the redistribution but short of a 10% annual gain in price, i.e. stagnant vs. inflation/CoO about year 2032 the incentive to operate a validator becomes pretty non-existant. mean while hotspots receive upto 72% of the HNT minted at that point
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molano
And more importantly, why the hate against validators? No blockchain without them. And I really do not see any issue in letting them create challenges. Why would you want to keep relying on a p2p network that is now way overscaled? Why would you want to have to setup portforwarding, strange VPN setups for off-grid, very difficult setups (always releayed) when you are behind a CGNAT address (mobile setups)? Why would you want to have the full blockchain on your SDcards, writing them to death every second with new blocks? You want that all just because you want that extra 0.003HNT times 3 /day for creating a challenge? What am I missing? (edited)
You're not missing anything, they are missing information because the problems are hidden. For many, they think their hotspot is plugging away at 100% efficiency making 0.1 HNT a day, and for some reason you want to take away 0.003. They assume the problems you are talking about must be on other hotspots because they've seen no errors regarding network issues etc. If people were actually able to see all the beacons their hotspot actually collects, and then see that half are lost due to p2p issues, they would be screaming for these changes!
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Man I knew this project was to good to be true and would go to shit, hear I am in a prime location making making .4 .5 a day and now there trying to cap the total rewards it will get to the point where breaking even and calling it a day is gonna be happening soon
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Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:10 PM
Lol we used to joke about the .9% being an issue for some. I can't believe so many idiots on Reddit hate this HIP
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Max - Just Max
Lol we used to joke about the .9% being an issue for some. I can't believe so many idiots on Reddit hate this HIP
What do you mean "the . 9%" ?
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macbannai
What do you mean "the . 9%" ?
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:12 PM
Challenge rewards make up .9% of the rewards
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Max - Just Max
Challenge rewards make up .9% of the rewards
I think what some are bothered about is why take away any rewards, take away the functionality but slide the rewards over to the other activities the miner is doing, but when miners see even small amounts being moved to bigger HNT holders it doesn't look good. (edited)
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macbannai
I think what some are bothered about is why take away any rewards, take away the functionality but slide the rewards over to the other activities the miner is doing, but when miners see even small amounts being moved to bigger HNT holders it doesn't look good. (edited)
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:15 PM
The validators do considerably more work when they are also constructing challenges. Why shouldn't they get the rewards for constructing those challenges?
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macbannai
I think what some are bothered about is why take away any rewards, take away the functionality but slide the rewards over to the other activities the miner is doing, but when miners see even small amounts being moved to bigger HNT holders it doesn't look good. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:18 PM
You do understand that not only do you have 10,000 HNT locked away for a few months, but validators can cost a lot of money to keep up right?
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Max - Just Max
The validators do considerably more work when they are also constructing challenges. Why shouldn't they get the rewards for constructing those challenges?
I don't disagree with the question, but I think your still missing the point. Do the validators need the . 9% more than the miners. Especially the enablement of cheaper miners coming to market just will add to the inevitable saturation miners fear.
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kunit61
Man I knew this project was to good to be true and would go to shit, hear I am in a prime location making making .4 .5 a day and now there trying to cap the total rewards it will get to the point where breaking even and calling it a day is gonna be happening soon
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:19 PM
The rewards have always been capped
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
You do understand that not only do you have 10,000 HNT locked away for a few months, but validators can cost a lot of money to keep up right?
Sure, but they get paid for it, it's not like they are running a charity. 😊
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:19 PM
Currently at 2,500,000 HNT per month (edited)
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malder
You're not missing anything, they are missing information because the problems are hidden. For many, they think their hotspot is plugging away at 100% efficiency making 0.1 HNT a day, and for some reason you want to take away 0.003. They assume the problems you are talking about must be on other hotspots because they've seen no errors regarding network issues etc. If people were actually able to see all the beacons their hotspot actually collects, and then see that half are lost due to p2p issues, they would be screaming for these changes!
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:20 PM
half, i lose 80% between my logs, and my "actual rewards"
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macbannai
I don't disagree with the question, but I think your still missing the point. Do the validators need the . 9% more than the miners. Especially the enablement of cheaper miners coming to market just will add to the inevitable saturation miners fear.
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:20 PM
.9% of rewards go to challenge construction. Who will be creating challenges?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:21 PM
yes the validators need the ,9 %
22:21
over time hotspots reap more and more rewards, validators are fixed
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Max - Just Max
.9% of rewards go to challenge construction. Who will be creating challenges?
Yeah let these high powered validators do it if it's better for the network, but taking the rewards just looks bad.
facepalm 1
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macbannai
Yeah let these high powered validators do it if it's better for the network, but taking the rewards just looks bad.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:22 PM
it sounds bad because people are uneducated on the actual mining curves
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macbannai
Yeah let these high powered validators do it if it's better for the network, but taking the rewards just looks bad.
How should the network pay for "high powered" validators?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:22 PM
the founders rewards are dropped every year 1% in favor of the miners
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
over time hotspots reap more and more rewards, validators are fixed
Seriously, all charts show miners earnings are consistently going down with no plan that they will increase, but in this HIP validators are getting tasks that increase their earnings.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:23 PM
until a cap
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macbannai
Yeah let these high powered validators do it if it's better for the network, but taking the rewards just looks bad.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:23 PM
So, 22,500 HNT per month is given out for challenges, that’s 750 HNT per day, that’s 0.001293103448276 per hotspot per day
22:23
It’s such a fractional amount
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:23 PM
because people look at days and weeks, the long term is about years and decades
22:23
idgaf what it makes today, i want it to make money for the next 10 years
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macbannai
Seriously, all charts show miners earnings are consistently going down with no plan that they will increase, but in this HIP validators are getting tasks that increase their earnings.
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:23 PM
You think that's bad, I hear its going to be like half the rewards on August 1, 2023
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:24 PM
as long as it goes above ath who cares
22:25
fighting over poc % when that phases out over time, and .9% is pointless
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
It’s such a fractional amount
I'm not disputing it's fractional, but the argument can be made the other way like I said before, if it's fractional, why give it to bigger holders than the smaller holders, it just doesn't look good.
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macbannai
I'm not disputing it's fractional, but the argument can be made the other way like I said before, if it's fractional, why give it to bigger holders than the smaller holders, it just doesn't look good.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:26 PM
if they are "bigger holders" why not take your hnt and go invest it in a validation pool
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macbannai
I'm not disputing it's fractional, but the argument can be made the other way like I said before, if it's fractional, why give it to bigger holders than the smaller holders, it just doesn't look good.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:26 PM
Because they did a challenge, and challenges get rewarded?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:26 PM
then you can get that .9%
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:27 PM
They arent just handing it to them (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
if they are "bigger holders" why not take your hnt and go invest it in a validation pool
I am considering it, but as a miner with a smaller fleet, I still need to pay it off. Haha
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:28 PM
I’ve got 60 HNT staked in a pool, .01 HNT per day return that’s automatically compounded daily (edited)
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macbannai
I am considering it, but as a miner with a smaller fleet, I still need to pay it off. Haha
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:28 PM
same i got 10's of hnt, lol. and a few miners to pay off, but i think i will invest what i was going to buy my next miner with into a validation pool myself.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:28 PM
Earning way more than that fractional challenge earning
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Earning way more than that fractional challenge earning
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:29 PM
and a great way to support the network from both sides
22:29
this shouldnt be viewed as a validator vs hotspot issue, but how we all provide a better more profitable network
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:29 PM
I think the problem with this community, is how uninformed people are (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I think the problem with this community, is how uninformed people are (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:30 PM
ive said that twice today in this thread
22:30
though i said uneducated
22:30
and in a general sense of the masses
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kunit61
Man I knew this project was to good to be true and would go to shit, hear I am in a prime location making making .4 .5 a day and now there trying to cap the total rewards it will get to the point where breaking even and calling it a day is gonna be happening soon
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:30 PM
For example cough cough
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I think the problem with this community, is how uninformed people are (edited)
I agree, rarely are we in chats like these. They are mostly in the general chats. (edited)
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macbannai
I agree, rarely are we in chats like these. They are mostly in the general chats. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:31 PM
I’m in general daily, gets pretty crazy in there
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:31 PM
most people coming into the actual hip to discuss it are more involved than those in the fb/twitter/etc threads/post
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:31 PM
FB and Reddit are the worst lol
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22:32
Actually, Reddit seems to be getting better
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:32 PM
i hope 51-55 clear, but each could use some polishing, and some vast community education
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i hope 51-55 clear, but each could use some polishing, and some vast community education
Could it be these are moving too fast? (edited)
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macbannai
Could it be these are moving too fast? (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:34 PM
half the community is people who fomo'd seeing a youtube video with a guy making 1500$ hnt in month
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macbannai
Could it be these are moving too fast? (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:35 PM
I think maybe a little too quick
22:35
I understand moving challenges (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:35 PM
i think the code should be done before the votes
22:35
like this one is on testnet, it works
22:35
ok lets vote then
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:35 PM
Eh
22:35
But that’s the problem with the Testnet
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:36 PM
but if you cant prove it works on paper, why make a change?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:36 PM
Remember the first release of PoCv11?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:36 PM
lol
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:36 PM
Completely broke the network
22:36
Even though it worked fine on the Testnet
22:36
It’s not big enough to simulate a 400k+ device network
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:36 PM
no but it is what we have for now
22:37
i'm just saying we are voting on some things before we can even implement them properly in the code
22:37
the "delay" has most of 39 supporters upset
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:37 PM
We didn’t even vote on the blacklist first and it was implemented 👀
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:37 PM
how about when they backdoored it
22:38
lost the vote then put it back in silently
22:38
we're almost all running it now
22:38
updated daily
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:38 PM
I found the reaction of that amusing
22:38
Honestly, I don’t care about the blacklist
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:38 PM
2022-02-18 06:35:19.661 25062 [info] <0.1593.0>@miner_poc_denylist:handle_info:104 already have version 2022021201
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:39 PM
I don’t try the exploit the networks downsides so what’s the point
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Sorry if I'm totally NooB on this, but is one consequence of this HIP to centralize an important network function in the hands of the (relatively) few players with enough HNT to stand up and then maintain a validator?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:39 PM
not at all
22:39
validators aren't even mainly owned by 1 person
22:40
people think some billion is just running 5 validators
22:40
5000 people pool together and run a few through pools, X like 10 groups that do that
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
not at all
I know that's not the case, but how many validators are there? A few dozen to a few hundred?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:41 PM
and they already control the flow of those network functions
22:41
3400+
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soly.jem
I know that's not the case, but how many validators are there? A few dozen to a few hundred?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:41 PM
Total? 3,400 something
22:41
I think 3,425
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:41 PM
close to that
22:41
and i know the pools are planning 8 more coming up
22:41
already have the capital
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That's actually way more than I would have thought, which I think is a great thing.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:41 PM
yeah it's not at all centralized
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:41 PM
Over 33% of the current supply is staked 😎
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:42 PM
you can join a pool for 10 hnt
22:42
some have 100hnt minimums or benifits for more, but i think 1 even allows a 1hnt stake
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:42 PM
Helium-Staking has no minimum
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:42 PM
now what voting power they give the investors vs. what they hold idk
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Helium-Staking has no minimum
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:43 PM
i didnt know if i could name them without the bot yelling at me. lol
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:43 PM
It’s not an exchange
22:43
The bot doesn’t care
22:43
BINANCE
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Carl-bot BOT 02/17/2022 10:43 PM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:43 PM
lol
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The voting is flawed and I really hope HIP55 doesn’t pass but with validators holding such a large amount of HNT I’m not optimistic about it not passing.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:44 PM
We are planning to add a voting mechanism to vote with the pool wallet but that is not implemented yet and don't know how many times we will agree on a vote as we will need to reach to 80-90% agreement to vote in one direction Helium-Staking (edited)
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What are the chances to lose what your stake in these pools, are there any?
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Appreciate the insight. Glad the number of validators is way higher than I thought it was. Still pales in comparison to the number of hotspots....
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:44 PM
yeah we were asking that tonight in the discord
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macbannai
What are the chances to lose what your stake in these pools, are there any?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:45 PM
Of course there are always risks
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macbannai
What are the chances to lose what your stake in these pools, are there any?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:45 PM
always risks
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Jayprado509
The voting is flawed and I really hope HIP55 doesn’t pass but with validators holding such a large amount of HNT I’m not optimistic about it not passing.
I'd be curious as your "why."
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Of course there are always risks
But is the only risk HNT goes to zero or are there other factors?
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soly.jem
Appreciate the insight. Glad the number of validators is way higher than I thought it was. Still pales in comparison to the number of hotspots....
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:46 PM
Yah but the returns are so much smaller now
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:46 PM
i could show two hosting providers who hold more power with their votes than the current yes votes.
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macbannai
But is the only risk HNT goes to zero or are there other factors?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:46 PM
A pool can get “hacked” or rugpool (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:46 PM
most manufacturers could out vote the validators
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soly.jem
I'd be curious as your "why."
My whys on the voting or not wanting HIP55 to pass?
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Jayprado509
The voting is flawed and I really hope HIP55 doesn’t pass but with validators holding such a large amount of HNT I’m not optimistic about it not passing.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:46 PM
Could you elaborate?
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macbannai
But is the only risk HNT goes to zero or are there other factors?
You're kind of putting your money in someone else's hands. In the financial world, we'd call that a "fiduciary." But I don't think the crypto landscape has developed to the point where staking pools have much by way of fiduciary responsibilities.... If you're going to stake, due your diligence!
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
A pool can get “hacked” or rugpool (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:47 PM
isnt one of the listed sites on the helium docs already defunct?
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Jayprado509
My whys on the voting or not wanting HIP55 to pass?
Both!
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:47 PM
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
22:48
There is no good voting system that we can implement
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:48 PM
mass voting by the uniformed isnt a great idea anyways
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
mass voting by the uniformed isnt a great idea anyways
And yet every democratic country does it
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:48 PM
but decentralization is the goal
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Dear Helium and majority HNT owner (read validator owners), do not forgot that your strength is in numbers. If the “little” hotspot owner do not make a profit anymore, they might turn off their hotspots, and the value of your network is gone. The value is the coverage, not the validators alone. Taking profits away from the hotspots puts your overall valuation at risk.
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groot
And yet every democratic country does it
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:49 PM
some better than others
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daandels
Dear Helium and majority HNT owner (read validator owners), do not forgot that your strength is in numbers. If the “little” hotspot owner do not make a profit anymore, they might turn off their hotspots, and the value of your network is gone. The value is the coverage, not the validators alone. Taking profits away from the hotspots puts your overall valuation at risk.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:49 PM
And why exactly are telling us this?
22:49
This HIP will decrease earnings by .9% for hotspots
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Max - Just Max
You think that's bad, I hear its going to be like half the rewards on August 1, 2023
Is that 9% or less than 1%
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
This HIP will decrease earnings by .9% for hotspots
Never a great way to promote the passing of this HIP. lol
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daandels
Dear Helium and majority HNT owner (read validator owners), do not forgot that your strength is in numbers. If the “little” hotspot owner do not make a profit anymore, they might turn off their hotspots, and the value of your network is gone. The value is the coverage, not the validators alone. Taking profits away from the hotspots puts your overall valuation at risk.
I honestly think the bigger challenge is oversaturation of coverage and lack of network use (not enough data flowing through the network). (edited)
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soly.jem
Both!
The reason I say voting is flawed is because it’s the rich voting for whatever makes them richer. The amount of people in total HIP55 will negatively effect is much much larger than the amount of validators. HIP55 also takes a percent from hotspot owners and gives it to the validators. It’s not a lot but hotspot owners are already getting squeezed with the large expansion of the network.
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macbannai
Never a great way to promote the passing of this HIP. lol
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:51 PM
I’d rather have a stable network and consistent activity and lose .9% of my earnings 😊
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Jayprado509
The reason I say voting is flawed is because it’s the rich voting for whatever makes them richer. The amount of people in total HIP55 will negatively effect is much much larger than the amount of validators. HIP55 also takes a percent from hotspot owners and gives it to the validators. It’s not a lot but hotspot owners are already getting squeezed with the large expansion of the network.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:51 PM
Maybe you should tell helium to decrease the amount security holders earn
22:51
32% cough cough
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:52 PM
% hotspots earn RED grows, % Validators earn fixed 6%/6.9 after hip55 FIXED.
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Jayprado509
The reason I say voting is flawed is because it’s the rich voting for whatever makes them richer. The amount of people in total HIP55 will negatively effect is much much larger than the amount of validators. HIP55 also takes a percent from hotspot owners and gives it to the validators. It’s not a lot but hotspot owners are already getting squeezed with the large expansion of the network.
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:52 PM
It's not a vote...
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:52 PM
It’s not?
22:53
My life has been a lie
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22:53
clowd
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Max - Just Max
It's not a vote...
It’s a dictatorship of the rich, helium is no longer a network for the people.
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soly.jem
I honestly think the bigger challenge is oversaturation of coverage and lack of network use (not enough data flowing through the network). (edited)
Agree that that is a big challenge. And adds an interesting perspective on the why of removing (even if small) rewards for the hotspots
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Jayprado509
It’s a dictatorship of the rich, helium is no longer a network for the people.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:54 PM
But if all the people turn off their hotspots, there’s no longer a useful network, so the people have a lot of power
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Jayprado509
It’s a dictatorship of the rich, helium is no longer a network for the people.
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:54 PM
its a temperature check
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This HIP is a lie. We are going to a more controlled and centralised Network. I would rather fight to fix my relay issues, change SD cards rather than this ...
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To be honest with the coin rising there's no way the founders should be getting 35% of that that's crazy
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mixtri
This HIP is a lie. We are going to a more controlled and centralised Network. I would rather fight to fix my relay issues, change SD cards rather than this ...
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:54 PM
40% of challenges on the network fail (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
40% of challenges on the network fail (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:54 PM
i wish my %'s were that good
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:55 PM
It’s not just a you thing
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:55 PM
i'm losing 60+
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Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:55 PM
So Reddit leaked into this channel?
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peepoclap 1
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:55 PM
if this works right, the reward spread will be much more fair
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Max - Just Max
its a temperature check
Well we should all vote no on this temp check in my opinion
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kunit61
To be honest with the coin rising there's no way the founders should be getting 35% of that that's crazy
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:56 PM
They get 32%, with 1% less each year, and they do deserve it, they trusted hundreds of thousands of dollars into a project that could fail at any time (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
40% of challenges on the network fail (edited)
People should learn how to configure things. We want it fully decentralised. There should be other solution for this issue. Getting a distributed to a more centralised brings the bottleneck to another part of the network
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:56 PM
IF you don't like it convince 400 people to invest 25hnt with you and start a validator
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
They get 32%, with 1% less each year, and they do deserve it, they trusted hundreds of thousands of dollars into a project that could fail at any time (edited)
The nature of venture investing... Most of those investments will fail, but the ones that make it usually pay off pretty well.
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Jayprado509
Well we should all vote no on this temp check in my opinion
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
Go ahead. Holding back people from using 4g in rural areas is probably worth the .9% in earnings
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
or go stake in a pool that will allow you to vote as well
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
or go stake in a pool that will allow you to vote as well
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
“Vote”
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Max - Just Max
its a temperature check
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
Umm this isn't a temp check...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Umm this isn't a temp check...
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
THATS WHAT I THOUGHT
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rawrmaan
To everyone voting on HIP 55: There's been an update to the Helium Vote description for the HIP 55 vote. It dramatically clarifies the changes that this HIP entails. Please give it a read if you're confused about what exactly is going on with this vote. https://heliumvote.com/14Rjhhz1DXLVmSRdzappqWgD6rfgu6XYxmdaSCvWLyLH8ZWbciK (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
VOTING (sorry for the ping rawr) (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:57 PM
page says pass with 2/3 so im pretty sure that is a full on vote
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mixtri
People should learn how to configure things. We want it fully decentralised. There should be other solution for this issue. Getting a distributed to a more centralised brings the bottleneck to another part of the network
And there can be future HIPs when people are ready to move it back to hotspots....
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:58 PM
well herm
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 10:58 PM
What’s devo doing here 👀
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capcom
But the “validators are stealing our rewards” stuff is pretty lackluster
this
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Umm this isn't a temp check...
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 10:59 PM
Interesting. The messaging on Helium Vote isn't great
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soly.jem
And there can be future HIPs when people are ready to move it back to hotspots....
We seen how well that kindof unwinding happens....or doesn't.
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Temperature checks are an optional measure to determine whether there is community interest before committing to building the implementation. In this case, the code has already been written.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 10:59 PM
this is going through
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Max - Just Max
Interesting. The messaging on Helium Vote isn't great
suggestions welcome
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Max - Just Max
Interesting. The messaging on Helium Vote isn't great
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 10:59 PM
Big yellow banners on the temp checks 🙂
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soly.jem
And there can be future HIPs when people are ready to move it back to hotspots....
If we see it as a temporal solution then I'm with. If not, I think the concept of Helium network is drastically changing
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macbannai
We seen how well that kindof unwinding happens....or doesn't.
I share your skepticism, trust me. But that's the nature of decentralized everything--someone's still got to drive the bus....
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Joey
suggestions welcome
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:00 PM
I think its gotta be one or the other. Official votes or temp checks
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not sure I follow
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:00 PM
Or both
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temp check would precede a full vote (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:00 PM
so now we all gotta vote again?
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Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:00 PM
Voting is either for a temp check or a full vote. Move temp check back to the emoji system
23:01
or make voting a temp check and then code review as the final sign off
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mixtri
If we see it as a temporal solution then I'm with. If not, I think the concept of Helium network is drastically changing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:01 PM
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
That's a nice statement.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:02 PM
i knew someone had looked at the math
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:02 PM
What is the current rate? coolcry
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
so now we all gotta vote again?
no, in this case there will be no temp check since the developers felt strongly enough to code it anyway
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:02 PM
it was a must for a sustainable network
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
Worth the price is debatable. There's always the law of unintended consequences. One of those may be to accelerate the oversaturation by making hotspots cheaper and "less hassle."
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
What is the current rate? coolcry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:03 PM
Global average per hotspot per day is 0.13hnt (last I looked before the ETL went down)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:03 PM
We’ve been talking about moving challenges over to validators, and light hotspots for a while now, it was definitely enough time for the team to make a choice
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
My problem is not the gain. It is about centralised concept as such. This can be more prone to failures compared to a distributed system. Your statement is very nice. But in action can be really different.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This has been the plan for many many months. At current rates, the average hotspot is looking at $11 less per year. You've lost more than that due to network issues that this fixes. Well worth the price.
But some think that is not the right way to look at it, we already have miners struggling to earn in some cases and another reason to take from them just doesn't look good, especially if it will I'll enable cheaper hotspots in the market which will certainly increase the saturation factor. (edited)
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Joey
no, in this case there will be no temp check since the developers felt strongly enough to code it anyway
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:04 PM
Right but its confusing which it is. I thought it was a temp check and didn't bother voting. 54 shouldn't be a HIP IMO but thats a separate discussion
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macbannai
But some think that is not the right way to look at it, we already have miners struggling to earn in some cases and another reason to take from them just doesn't look good, especially if it will I'll enable cheaper hotspots in the market which will certainly increase the saturation factor. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:04 PM
But this could fix those miners
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Max - Just Max
Right but its confusing which it is. I thought it was a temp check and didn't bother voting. 54 shouldn't be a HIP IMO but thats a separate discussion
you can still vote!
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soly.jem
Worth the price is debatable. There's always the law of unintended consequences. One of those may be to accelerate the oversaturation by making hotspots cheaper and "less hassle."
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:04 PM
Larger, more stable network means more buy-in from companies using the network. Network usage have an effect on the price of HNT. You can see where that goes. 😉
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macbannai
But some think that is not the right way to look at it, we already have miners struggling to earn in some cases and another reason to take from them just doesn't look good, especially if it will I'll enable cheaper hotspots in the market which will certainly increase the saturation factor. (edited)
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:04 PM
"People will shut off their miners" "Too many people will have miners"
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I think a good compromise would be to make sure that full hotspot are able to make more than light hotspots. It looks to me like the people losing are the current full hotspot owners
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:04 PM
but their struggling because it needs a fix, this is the fix
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:05 PM
There are way to many people who think Helium is plug n play, and that’s the main problem
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mixtri
My problem is not the gain. It is about centralised concept as such. This can be more prone to failures compared to a distributed system. Your statement is very nice. But in action can be really different.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:05 PM
There are 3400+ Validators. It's still decentralized.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Larger, more stable network means more buy-in from companies using the network. Network usage have an effect on the price of HNT. You can see where that goes. 😉
I really like how you think. I'm about to change my vote but I'll think of it more.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:05 PM
honestly the upset people should be the miners making 5x network average daily, as this should even that out some
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:05 PM
Not configuring, or configuring incorrectly causes a problem for the entire network, but this HIP fixes that
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Max - Just Max
"People will shut off their miners" "Too many people will have miners"
Good chance of that or those that are serious deployments give up and sell their miners.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:05 PM
L.o.S. height, setup will still make it's contribution, but less network errors
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macbannai
Good chance of that or those that are serious deployments give up and sell their miners.
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:06 PM
Lol, no chance people shut off their miner over challenger rewards
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are 3400+ Validators. It's still decentralized.
even better, thats 34.25M HNT locked up for 5 months minimum (edited)
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How does this keep coming down to 'light hotspots' or 'no light hotspots' while that is not what the vote is about. This is exactly the problem with this HIP as well as people here keep defending the HIP using 'light hotspots'...
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:06 PM
When 50% of supply staked? 😎
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:07 PM
lite hotspots cant opperate on the current network conditions
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Max - Just Max
Lol, no chance people shut off their miner over challenger rewards
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:07 PM
That's coming from me, the guy says he's going to shut off his miners every other day
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Max - Just Max
Lol, no chance people shut off their miner over challenger rewards
No, I agree not over that, but the question is what's the next HIP in the pipeline that's aiming to chip away at the miners earnings?
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groot
How does this keep coming down to 'light hotspots' or 'no light hotspots' while that is not what the vote is about. This is exactly the problem with this HIP as well as people here keep defending the HIP using 'light hotspots'...
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:07 PM
Are you referring to my statement?
23:07
I mentioned it because the two are often talked about together
23:07
I wasn’t using it to back anything up
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Will Portforwarding 44158 still be necessary after HIP 55?
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He_Jan
Will Portforwarding 44158 still be necessary after HIP 55?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:07 PM
No
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groot
How does this keep coming down to 'light hotspots' or 'no light hotspots' while that is not what the vote is about. This is exactly the problem with this HIP as well as people here keep defending the HIP using 'light hotspots'...
core devs have made it clear that challenge creation needs to happen on validators in order for the light hotspot model to work
yee 1
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macbannai
No, I agree not over that, but the question is what's the next HIP in the pipeline that's aiming to chip away at the miners earnings?
I really don't think HIPs are the threat you should be worried about.... Your random neighbors setting up hotspots in the same or the next hex are a bigger threat to earnings....
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:08 PM
full hotspots aren't handling it well
23:08
no way light's would with the specs their showing for pre-order models now
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macbannai
No, I agree not over that, but the question is what's the next HIP in the pipeline that's aiming to chip away at the miners earnings?
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:08 PM
You used to be able to get 13.1 HNT every 30 minutes before validators came along. The network size 10x'd since that time
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
No
So no more relayed Status?
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He_Jan
Will Portforwarding 44158 still be necessary after HIP 55?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:08 PM
Light hotspots will not need to port forward 🙂
vegetadance 1
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Max - Just Max
You used to be able to get 13.1 HNT every 30 minutes before validators came along. The network size 10x'd since that time
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
what was it worth back then ?
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macbannai
No, I agree not over that, but the question is what's the next HIP in the pipeline that's aiming to chip away at the miners earnings?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
None, any other change would piss off a lot more people
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He_Jan
So no more relayed Status?
Nope
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
what was it worth back then ?
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
We can't talk about price but $20
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He_Jan
So no more relayed Status?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
Those darn validators!
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Joey
core devs have made it clear that challenge creation needs to happen on validators in order for the light hotspot model to work
That something has to be done in order for light hotspots to work, sure. That it has to be this, simply not true. It is framed in such a way that the whole HIP is a mockery. Why HIP something when you're going to be dishonest, if you are steering the vote just don't HIP it, at least then the intentions are clear.
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Max - Just Max
You used to be able to get 13.1 HNT every 30 minutes before validators came along. The network size 10x'd since that time
odds of that happening with 1/2M hotspots active on the network are very slim. That was abck when we had something like 50k
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Max - Just Max
We can't talk about price but $20
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
much higer than i thought
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He_Jan
Will Portforwarding 44158 still be necessary after HIP 55?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:09 PM
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
None, any other change would piss off a lot more people
Right. Just pass this one and we won't come after your earnings in the future. Sounds like US Congress.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:10 PM
manufacturers might reduce the price, doubt the distributors will pass that along
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Joey
odds of that happening with 1/2M hotspots active on the network are very slim. That was abck when we had something like 50k
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:10 PM
The point is no one cared back then because it was an obvious positive for the network. I'm disproving the other guy's points
clowd 1
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groot
That something has to be done in order for light hotspots to work, sure. That it has to be this, simply not true. It is framed in such a way that the whole HIP is a mockery. Why HIP something when you're going to be dishonest, if you are steering the vote just don't HIP it, at least then the intentions are clear.
Its not like they spent months of time on something that they thought was an inferior solution.
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Max - Just Max
The point is no one cared back then because it was an obvious positive for the network. I'm disproving the other guy's points
ah coo. too hard to keep up
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macbannai
Right. Just pass this one and we won't come after your earnings in the future. Sounds like US Congress.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:10 PM
Except the HIP is made by the community, so it would be more like the US citizens
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groot
That something has to be done in order for light hotspots to work, sure. That it has to be this, simply not true. It is framed in such a way that the whole HIP is a mockery. Why HIP something when you're going to be dishonest, if you are steering the vote just don't HIP it, at least then the intentions are clear.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:10 PM
So you have another way? 🙂
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Except the HIP is made by the community, so it would be more like the US citizens
Not to get political, but that's who US Congress is supposed to be representing. Haha
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:12 PM
i couldn't possible write half the codes these guys do, but i can tell you there is no way the DAO's work if this doesn't happen first.
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macbannai
Not to get political, but that's who US Congress is supposed to be representing. Haha
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:12 PM
Yah but when do politicians ever think about the people? 😂 (edited)
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
thats not an arguable point. next.
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The amount of light hotspot that are going to be produced and activated are going to cause the rewards to go even lower. We are all going to wish we still had port forwarding issues, relay, and SD card issues. Those can he fixed with a little hands on, rewards dwindling can’t be reversed once this HIP goes into full effect.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So you have another way? 🙂
I had this argument with you yesterday, I showed you a counter example as well as Paul. Since I only need to provide one counter example to prove your 'this is the only way' is not true, I'm not doing it again.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:13 PM
What requirement would move 5% somewhere else?
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groot
I had this argument with you yesterday, I showed you a counter example as well as Paul. Since I only need to provide one counter example to prove your 'this is the only way' is not true, I'm not doing it again.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:13 PM
Apologies, I don't recall that. 🙂
23:13
Been a long day 😉
23:13
(few days? lol )
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
What requirement would move 5% somewhere else?
I'll delete that as people are going to run wild with a hypothetical.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:13 PM
.9% hnt has moved more than that this hour
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Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:14 PM
This is such a weird HIP to be so contentious
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Max - Just Max
This is such a weird HIP to be so contentious
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:14 PM
Bikeracking strikes again. lol
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groot
I'll delete that as people are going to run wild with a hypothetical.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:14 PM
I’m just asking because I’m not sure where the 5% would come from, the rest of the rewards are strictly given towards hotspots since they are the only ones with PoC capability, and security token holders, well they do their thing
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Jayprado509
The amount of light hotspot that are going to be produced and activated are going to cause the rewards to go even lower. We are all going to wish we still had port forwarding issues, relay, and SD card issues. Those can he fixed with a little hands on, rewards dwindling can’t be reversed once this HIP goes into full effect.
Theoretically it's a balance, right. Supply and demand. Once rewards are low enough, some people will turn off their hotspots.... Things will get better for those who remain and it'll reach equillibrium.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Bikeracking strikes again. lol
Max - Just Max 02/17/2022 11:15 PM
Denylist taught me none of this matters anyway. Helium does as they see fit
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Max - Just Max
Denylist taught me none of this matters anyway. Helium does as they see fit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:15 PM
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Max - Just Max
This is such a weird HIP to be so contentious
To be honest, I'm fine with the HIP, maybe some specifics which in the mean time capcom has clarified that we're actually voting on the premise not the implementation (which could be made more clear). The way it is presented just mocks everyone involved by presenting it like this hip, in this form, is the only way to light hotspots
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soly.jem
Theoretically it's a balance, right. Supply and demand. Once rewards are low enough, some people will turn off their hotspots.... Things will get better for those who remain and it'll reach equillibrium.
Why turn them off? It’s a set it and forget it I don’t think your theory would work in this situation normally yes.
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Max - Just Max
Denylist taught me none of this matters anyway. Helium does as they see fit
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:15 PM
Yah, I wish they would’ve atleast informed us about it, I wouldn’t even care if we didn’t vote as long as they said something about it before hand
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Max - Just Max
Denylist taught me none of this matters anyway. Helium does as they see fit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:16 PM
The irony is 54 and 55 is the over-correction from the backdoored denylist debacle. lol
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groot
To be honest, I'm fine with the HIP, maybe some specifics which in the mean time capcom has clarified that we're actually voting on the premise not the implementation (which could be made more clear). The way it is presented just mocks everyone involved by presenting it like this hip, in this form, is the only way to light hotspots
This is a vote on the implementation.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:16 PM
Wait what’s this about backdooring?
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Jayprado509
Why turn them off? It’s a set it and forget it I don’t think your theory would work in this situation normally yes.
There's still some hassle with converting rewards to fiat, keeping the thing online, etc. And if the device fails with low rewards, would you buy another to replace it?
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Jayprado509
Why turn them off? It’s a set it and forget it I don’t think your theory would work in this situation normally yes.
Exactly the power consumption is too low to turn it off
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groot
To be honest, I'm fine with the HIP, maybe some specifics which in the mean time capcom has clarified that we're actually voting on the premise not the implementation (which could be made more clear). The way it is presented just mocks everyone involved by presenting it like this hip, in this form, is the only way to light hotspots
can't emphasize enough, alternate perspectives welcome. that has been built in the open for upwards of a year. Lots of input got us to this point (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Wait what’s this about backdooring?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:16 PM
hahahaha
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soly.jem
There's still some hassle with converting rewards to fiat, keeping the thing online, etc. And if the device fails with low rewards, would you buy another to replace it?
According to this HIP they would basically be hassle free… no need to turn it off or work on it like a real enthusiast would.
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Jayprado509
According to this HIP they would basically be hassle free… no need to turn it off or work on it like a real enthusiast would.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:18 PM
Except for the coverage part 😅
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Joey
can't emphasize enough, alternate perspectives welcome. that has been built in the open for upwards of a year. Lots of input got us to this point (edited)
The way this HIP is presented is the Helium equivalent of 'think of the children'. That's my grievance, not the HIP itself which I think is a net positive for the network.
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groot
The way this HIP is presented is the Helium equivalent of 'think of the children'. That's my grievance, not the HIP itself which I think is a net positive for the network.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:18 PM
I’m thinking about not having to port forward every single hotspot 😩
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Jayprado509
According to this HIP they would basically be hassle free… no need to turn it off or work on it like a real enthusiast would.
You mean us miners could become even dumber? lol
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groot
The way this HIP is presented is the Helium equivalent of 'think of the children'. That's my grievance, not the HIP itself which I think is a net positive for the network.
I don't know what to do with that feedback. Do you not like the font? 😅
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Except for the coverage part 😅
With the amount of light hotspots that are going to come online coverage will be an issue of the past which is great for the network bad for everyone who has already invested into the network.
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have already merged one PR to change the vote description today. You're welcome to file another and I'd absolutely consider it. (edited)
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Jayprado509
With the amount of light hotspots that are going to come online coverage will be an issue of the past which is great for the network bad for everyone who has already invested into the network.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:20 PM
how do you figure?
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Joey
I don't know what to do with that feedback. Do you not like the font? 😅
I'm talking about the 'vote this way or no light hotspots for you' undertone and I think you're well aware but choose to intentionally frustrate the discussion.
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Jayprado509
With the amount of light hotspots that are going to come online coverage will be an issue of the past which is great for the network bad for everyone who has already invested into the network.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:20 PM
Data Transfers are going up anyway, we should focus on getting a bunch of data only and stocking up until the big data transfer numbers start coming up trump
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Jayprado509
According to this HIP they would basically be hassle free… no need to turn it off or work on it like a real enthusiast would.
But again. Would you spend a couple hundred bucks if you were only going to earn a few cents a day?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
how do you figure?
Pretty self explanatory, where does your confusion lie?
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Jayprado509
Pretty self explanatory, where does your confusion lie?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:20 PM
usage based value of a network
23:21
if the network isnt used, it hold no value, no coverage = no value
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groot
I'm talking about the 'vote this way or no light hotspots for you' undertone and I think you're well aware but choose to intentionally frustrate the discussion.
its not an undertone though. I noted above the reasons for this requirement.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:21 PM
more coverage>more usage>more value
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I’m thinking about not having to port forward every single hotspot 😩
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:21 PM
But... 80% of the support questions we answer are about relay. We'll lose our roles. Think of the Mentors! lol (edited)
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23:21
coolcry
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soly.jem
But again. Would you spend a couple hundred bucks if you were only going to earn a few cents a day?
By the time people start asking themselves that question the light spots will be out and the saturation will already be too great.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But... 80% of the support questions we answer are about relay. We'll lose our roles. Think of the Mentors! lol (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:22 PM
That’s what you get for giving me the Troll role and locking me in the Asian channels
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But... 80% of the support questions we answer are about relay. We'll lose our roles. Think of the Mentors! lol (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/17/2022 11:22 PM
someone has to tell them to turn it off and back on again
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
That’s what you get for giving me the Troll role and locking me in the Asian channels
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:22 PM
Me?? haha I'm no mod 😉
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
That’s what you get for giving me the Troll role and locking me in the Asian channels
lol troll role is my favorite. only a lucky few
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped i hear pain in your voice😢😢
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Joey
lol troll role is my favorite. only a lucky few
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:23 PM
If only they fixed the permissions, devo almost gave me it as a gift but then we found out what happens when you have it
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soly.jem
But again. Would you spend a couple hundred bucks if you were only going to earn a few cents a day?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:23 PM
Eth, BTC, etc miners do that every day... 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Me?? haha I'm no mod 😉
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:23 PM
The anger moves onto everyone
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23:23
We are a community right
23:23
The peoples network
23:24
Everyone gets it equally
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
The peoples network
The Validators network
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basically hip 55 is right choice at it will make the dream easier to come true, and 54 is the easy way out
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groot
I'm talking about the 'vote this way or no light hotspots for you' undertone and I think you're well aware but choose to intentionally frustrate the discussion.
I do apologize if I'm coming across short. It's the notion that "they're up to something" that gets exhausting. Whenever I/we hear constructive feedback we make every effort to act. (edited)
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Jayprado509
The Validators network
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:25 PM
No hotspot = no coverage = no use, it’s the hotspots network
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Joey
its not an undertone though. I noted above the reasons for this requirement.
So you are saying there is no possible other way than this hip, in this specific form and implementation? I can name two that I know are shared among more then one network participant, just look at the issues on github. 1) not move the 0.9, 2) put the load on all validators not only cg members. So it isn't vote or no light hotspots, there can be some additions/changes to this HIP and still get to light hotspots.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:25 PM
Or, we can call it the peoples network like it is, hotspots and validators working together
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there should be a distinction between light hotspots and ones that will have extra processing power from this change, this way extra processing potential does not go to waste. could be used for things like an evolving nft (if capability ever added) or beamforming capability of nearby hotspots, these are things that the miners could provide a service and charge for but if all are labeled/tagged as light hotspots the potential vanishes
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Awesum
there should be a distinction between light hotspots and ones that will have extra processing power from this change, this way extra processing potential does not go to waste. could be used for things like an evolving nft (if capability ever added) or beamforming capability of nearby hotspots, these are things that the miners could provide a service and charge for but if all are labeled/tagged as light hotspots the potential vanishes
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:25 PM
Key word NFT is a no from me
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Krp
basically hip 55 is right choice at it will make the dream easier to come true, and 54 is the easy way out
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:25 PM
54 is a bug fix. 🙂
👍 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
54 is a bug fix. 🙂
Yep
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Krp
Yep
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:26 PM
It's in no way related to 55 🙂
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:26 PM
Didn’t helium already do something with NFT’s back in 2019? (edited)
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I meant it like easy way out of making big decision
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Joey
I do apologize if I'm coming across short. It's the notion that "they're up to something" that gets exhausting. Whenever I/we hear constructive feedback we make every effort to act. (edited)
I'm sorry if it has come across that way, I have no doubt that you and Helium as a whole are doing the best they can for the network. That is not my point at all. (edited)
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Krp
I meant it like easy way out of making big decision
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:28 PM
Not sure what you mean. What decision? 54 is just fixing the flaw that counts inactive hotpots. (edited)
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Joey
I do apologize if I'm coming across short. It's the notion that "they're up to something" that gets exhausting. Whenever I/we hear constructive feedback we make every effort to act. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:28 PM
I’ve got some feedback, I think Daniel Chrobak should be sent 1 HST to his wallet, so by the time he goes to a college, he’ll have enough HNT to cover the fees
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure what you mean. What decision? 54 is just fixing the flaw that counts inactive hotpots. (edited)
The decision to move Poc to validators, its possible that i understand it in a wrong way, i have been reding on this only for like 15 min
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groot
So you are saying there is no possible other way than this hip, in this specific form and implementation? I can name two that I know are shared among more then one network participant, just look at the issues on github. 1) not move the 0.9, 2) put the load on all validators not only cg members. So it isn't vote or no light hotspots, there can be some additions/changes to this HIP and still get to light hotspots.
I do like the notion that non-cg vals could do the work. I believe that was the original spec.
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Krp
The decision to move Poc to validators, its possible that i understand it in a wrong way, i have been reding on this only for like 15 min
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:30 PM
That is this HIP55, not HIP54 🙂
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Krp
The decision to move Poc to validators, its possible that i understand it in a wrong way, i have been reding on this only for like 15 min
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:30 PM
We aren’t moving PoC to validators though
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Didn’t helium already do something with NFT’s back in 2019? (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 11:30 PM
Yeah, but it was an auction for a good cause https://zodiac.helium.com/
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I’ve got some feedback, I think Daniel Chrobak should be sent 1 HST to his wallet, so by the time he goes to a college, he’ll have enough HNT to cover the fees
I'll pass along the message...
😆 1
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Joey
I'll pass along the message...
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:30 PM
YES 🙌
23:30
Tell capcom is was from Danny
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure what you mean. What decision? 54 is just fixing the flaw that counts inactive hotpots. (edited)
It's not a flaw nor a bug, it's a design decision that is now proposed to be changed. Stop spreading your own opinions as facts.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
We aren’t moving PoC to validators though
I meant the Poc challange thing, sorry i am in class I can't give 100% attention
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groot
It's not a flaw nor a bug, it's a design decision that is now proposed to be changed. Stop spreading your own opinions as facts.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:31 PM
Counting inactive hotspots was never a goal, thus a bug.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yeah, but it was an auction for a good cause https://zodiac.helium.com/
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:31 PM
Ooh, I heard about how India is affected really bad with jobs from covid, glad they did this
🙏 1
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groot
It's not a flaw nor a bug, it's a design decision that is now proposed to be changed. Stop spreading your own opinions as facts.
more of an optimization if I understand correctly. I haven't dug into 54
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Counting inactive hotspots was never a goal, thus a bug.
Counting hotspots was the decision, inactive or active wasn't even part of the discussion. Not a bug. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:31 PM
Same with Pakistan
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Ooh, I heard about how India is affected really bad with jobs from covid, glad they did this
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 11:32 PM
Also the nfts came with OG Hotspots 😉
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Also the nfts came with OG Hotspots 😉
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:32 PM
So if I find an unopened OG I get a free NFT?
Annoying_Dog 1
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groot
Counting hotspots was the decision, inactive or active wasn't even part of the discussion. Not a bug. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:32 PM
I've been software QA for 20+ years. Please don't tell me what is a bug and what isn't.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
So if I find an unopened OG I get a free NFT?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/17/2022 11:32 PM
Well maybe if you reverse it haha. But we are are getting off topic (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:32 PM
Anyway, wrong channel for this. 🙂
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Well maybe if you reverse it haha. But we are are getting off topic (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:33 PM
It would fit perfect next to my drawing of Nicholas Cage in a banana
😅 1
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
It would fit perfect next to my drawing of Nicholas Cage in a banana
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:33 PM
Gunning for that troll role again, eh? lol
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so what are you voting for ? Hip 55 ? I may asume
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Gunning for that troll role again, eh? lol
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
I’m serious!
😆 1
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Krp
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped so what are you voting for ? Hip 55 ? I may asume
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
Yes, I voted Yes for 55.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I’m serious!
We shall support you on the journey
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Gunning for that troll role again, eh? lol
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
Noooooo
🤣 1
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#VoteNoHIP55
let_me_in 2
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
I just like showing off my drawing skills
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Krp
We shall support you on the journey
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
No. Support yourself. Read the HIP and make an informed vote. 🙂
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Jayprado509
#VoteNoHIP55
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:34 PM
#givemefreehst
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reeee 3
23:35
Upvote if ur cool^
23:35
Ok, enough messing around
23:36
Does this mean I can finally put 10 hotspots in my room?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I've been software QA for 20+ years. Please don't tell me what is a bug and what isn't.
Ah the great authority fallacy, a nice one, that means we're done.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, I voted Yes for 55.
I will be voting for the 55 too but my hotspot was offline for long due to resynchronization after Sd card upgrade so i have basilcly zero hnt, so I don know of my vote has any value 😢 becose i have like 2 bucks of hnt
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Does this mean I can finally put 10 hotspots in my room?
Denylist
😆 1
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~Devo~
Denylist
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:36 PM
NO
23:36
I didn’t say I’ll spoof
23:36
I said they’ll be in the same room
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groot
Ah the great authority fallacy, a nice one, that means we're done.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:37 PM
Fair point, but the point still stands. I really get annoyed when someone tries to tell me I don't know my own job.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Does this mean I can finally put 10 hotspots in my room?
I have a oguy in my city who put 3 next to each other and didn't bother to move the virtual location out of the smallest hex so he has transmission scale of 0.22 ☠☠
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Fair point, but the point still stands. I really get annoyed when someone tries to tell me I don't know my own job.
Do you know when the targeting logic was created, and when the notion of active and inactive hotspots came around? And hence whether the 'inactive' part could even be part of the discussion?
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groot
Do you know when the targeting logic was created, and when the notion of active and inactive hotspots came around? And hence whether the 'inactive' part could even be part of the discussion?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:38 PM
We really shouldn't clog up this HIP channel with 54 stuff. 🙂 @💯 Not A Bot 💯 is bad enough. 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We really shouldn't clog up this HIP channel with 54 stuff. 🙂 @💯 Not A Bot 💯 is bad enough. 😉 lol
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:40 PM
What’s wrong with me
😄 1
23:40
coolcry
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groot
Do you know when the targeting logic was created, and when the notion of active and inactive hotspots came around? And hence whether the 'inactive' part could even be part of the discussion?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:40 PM
I would appreciate it though if you could throw me the alt method (post link) for HIP55 you mentioned so I can re-read it. 🙂 (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
What’s wrong with me
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:41 PM
😂 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:41 PM
The list isn’t that long is it? coolcry
23:41
Hey, I’m an exception, DMan said so
😄 1
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
The list isn’t that long is it? coolcry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:41 PM
giggity
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Who says I have one, like I said before, I'm onboard with the HIP but I don't like the way it is presented as the only option as there are adjustments possible to the HIP and still get to light hotspots. Such as what I mentioned above, spreading the load across all validators
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
giggity
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/17/2022 11:42 PM
🤨
🤣 1
23:42
Aight I’m off to sleep, have fun debating and stuff lads
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No. Support yourself. Read the HIP and make an informed vote. 🙂
I was supporting his decision to get the troll role😂😂 (edited)
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groot
Who says I have one, like I said before, I'm onboard with the HIP but I don't like the way it is presented as the only option as there are adjustments possible to the HIP and still get to light hotspots. Such as what I mentioned above, spreading the load across all validators
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:43 PM
Right.. I thought you said you posted a different method yesterday. 🙂
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Krp
I was supporting his decision to get the troll role😂😂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:43 PM
Oh! lmao
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Right.. I thought you said you posted a different method yesterday. 🙂
Not method, differences to the HIP that would still get us to light hotspots.
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I will be leaving , will come back after i read up more
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groot
Not method, differences to the HIP that would still get us to light hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/17/2022 11:44 PM
ah ok
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So, someone thinks that converting all HS in light HS and give the ability to send beacons (that is the moment where more rewards are made) only to Validators and also its rewards is good, without, at least, increase the amount of rewards made by witnesses. lmao. If this passes I'm starting to see a lot of HS going offline. The truth is that no one is here "for the network". Everyone is here for the money. If there's less and less money, people will start to go away. (edited)
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Drulo
So, someone thinks that converting all HS in light HS and give the ability to send beacons (that is the moment where more rewards are made) only to Validators and also its rewards is good, without, at least, increase the amount of rewards made by witnesses. lmao. If this passes I'm starting to see a lot of HS going offline. The truth is that no one is here "for the network". Everyone is here for the money. If there's less and less money, people will start to go away. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:09 AM
What? Validators send challenges, not beacons...
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How are the votes calculated. The numbers don't add up
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bogg24
How are the votes calculated. The numbers don't add up
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:10 AM
It's the hnt amount, not the number of votes
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Still. Why is the difference so big? Did 'For HIP 55' start with a million hnt ahead?
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bogg24
Still. Why is the difference so big? Did 'For HIP 55' start with a million hnt ahead?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:13 AM
No, that just how people have been voting. 🤷‍♂️
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This seems rigged
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bogg24
This seems rigged
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:14 AM
Why, because people can clearly see that this is needed?
00:14
Other votes have passed with similar numbers
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bogg24
Still. Why is the difference so big? Did 'For HIP 55' start with a million hnt ahead?
because validators accounts voted
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Dejavu
because validators accounts voted
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:15 AM
And?
00:15
What if they did?
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and is unfair, rich will always win
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:16 AM
The vote is to make the network better. Wtf is the problem?
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it does, is juat makes rich even richer, and validators getting to much power
00:16
they already own to much power
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:16 AM
Ffs no it doesn't
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seriosly
00:17
did have same chat last night
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bogg24
Still. Why is the difference so big? Did 'For HIP 55' start with a million hnt ahead?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:17 AM
You can change your vote mid election
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light hotspots are good, but the weight shift is poorly implemented
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Dejavu
light hotspots are good, but the weight shift is poorly implemented
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:18 AM
We have a hip for that, but people only care about it when they are affected: #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
We have a hip for that, but people only care about it when they are affected: #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:19 AM
Yes, but that hip doesn't address the issue here.
00:19
Anyway...
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what if this hip55 does not resolve the performance issues...what then
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, but that hip doesn't address the issue here.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:20 AM
But it could with the right changes coolcry
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Dejavu
what if this hip55 does not resolve the performance issues...what then
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:20 AM
But it does?
00:20
The problem right now is that the network is choking because of hardware limited hotspots
00:20
and it won't get better with the growth
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
But it could with the right changes coolcry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:20 AM
I disagree. Being able to buy votes is fundamentally flawed
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I disagree. Being able to buy votes is fundamentally flawed
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:20 AM
I mean changing governance in general 😅
00:21
not token lock specifically
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I mean changing governance in general 😅
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:21 AM
I mean voting with hnt :)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
The problem right now is that the network is choking because of hardware limited hotspots
true that unfortunately
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I mean voting with hnt :)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:21 AM
Yeah that too
🤝 1
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Dejavu
true that unfortunately
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:21 AM
i think @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped had a nice tldr from capcom, u still have that? (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yeah that too
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:22 AM
I just need to learn github so I can write a few hips
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
i think @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped had a nice tldr from capcom, u still have that? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:22 AM
Oh, it's in the pins
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I just need to learn github so I can write a few hips
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:23 AM
it's pretty easy, you can even just use their editor, no need for managing git hehe
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh, it's in the pins
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:23 AM
Ah nice!
00:23
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00:23
So this would sum it up pretty good
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:23 AM
Nice. I'm limited on what I can do on the phone. :)
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my only concern are the validators, seen how long took to get the network up when that block got stuck, basically 0 control
00:24
at least devs should have some phone numbers for who owns validators
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Dejavu
my only concern are the validators, seen how long took to get the network up when that block got stuck, basically 0 control
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:25 AM
That's a different issue, but you should read the validators channel. They've been talking about that sort of thing today. :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's a different issue, but you should read the validators channel. They've been talking about that sort of thing today. :)
great, ill look to see what the chatter there 🙂
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Dejavu
my only concern are the validators, seen how long took to get the network up when that block got stuck, basically 0 control
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:26 AM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
👍 1
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:26 AM
Ahhh nice
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so many hips, hard to keep track 🙂
✅ 2
00:28
guess in someone's head all those make sense
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Dejavu
guess in someone's head all those make sense
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 12:30 AM
Some do, some are more controverse like #hip-39-hnt-redenomination
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so how long will it take to implement the hip after the voting is over? any idea?
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It is already running on testnet, so not very long
01:54
Relatively speaking, of course.
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How is this gonna impact the rewards for the hotspots ?as the rewards goes up for the validators the hotspots rewards will decrease if they don't pass any data..right?
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kreed_kid
How is this gonna impact the rewards for the hotspots ?as the rewards goes up for the validators the hotspots rewards will decrease if they don't pass any data..right?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 2:13 AM
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0.9 les rewards to hotspots that will not receive any data to transfer is still a big thing or i am mistaking here ?
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kreed_kid
0.9 les rewards to hotspots that will not receive any data to transfer is still a big thing or i am mistaking here ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 2:22 AM
0,9% from 100%
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The miner generating the challenge gets rewarded for doing so, so does this mean you wont get that reward?. We only get a reward when we get challenged ?
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Steve (UK)
The miner generating the challenge gets rewarded for doing so, so does this mean you wont get that reward?. We only get a reward when we get challenged ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 2:58 AM
Yes, Validators will generate challenges after this hip
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Right, so we only get rewards when we "happen" to get challenged, where as now, we get a reward for getting challenged AND when we challenge others, right?
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Steve (UK)
Right, so we only get rewards when we "happen" to get challenged, where as now, we get a reward for getting challenged AND when we challenge others, right?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 3:07 AM
Right now we are getting rewarded for creating a challenge, beaconing, witnessing and data transfer. If hip-55 passes, we will get rewarded for Beaconing, Witnessing and Data Tarnsfer (edited)
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I think the 0.9% less rewards is actually 1.4% less rewards, because the reduction is from 70% of all hnt to 69% of all hnt. That's 1 out of 70, not 1 out of 100.
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for example here is an instance where the beacon got 11 witness but the next time it got 0 because the challenger had bad p2p connection. The person made 0.03 hnt on the first beacon and 0 on the second. also the hotspots which witnessed the beacon which are 11 also made around 0.03 hnt each on average. So now the question is would you give up your 0.003 hnt reward to get stability in poc? This hip is overall + EV imo. (edited)
💯 1
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 3:52 AM
It still isn’t clear to me why this has to be something that gets pushed into the already overworked validators. Why not a lighter service that I can run on something like a $5 digital ocean box without staking 10,000 HNT to become a validator?
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nickpoorman
It still isn’t clear to me why this has to be something that gets pushed into the already overworked validators. Why not a lighter service that I can run on something like a $5 digital ocean box without staking 10,000 HNT to become a validator?
what will be the security if the issuer of challenges don't have anything at stake? (edited)
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BusyPanda
what will be the security if the issuer of challenges don't have anything at stake? (edited)
nickpoorman 02/18/2022 3:53 AM
Maybe they still do have to stake but not an absurd $250k USD worth to run a private service for their own miners.
03:54
Also, allocate the 0.9% back to them and that’s their financial incentive
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nickpoorman
Maybe they still do have to stake but not an absurd $250k USD worth to run a private service for their own miners.
if it's a separate pool then you will have to provide more compensation than the current 0.9% for validators it balances out because of their other rewards. If you have to run a box for just 0.9% of rewards I don't think it would be enough of incentive
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 3:57 AM
People are paying $1000 for a miner and placing it out in the middle of nowhere to create better coverage, where a bulk of their earnings is creating challenges, and now the idea is to remove that.
👎 1
03:57
I could run a digital ocean “light validator” for 16 years for $1000
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nickpoorman
People are paying $1000 for a miner and placing it out in the middle of nowhere to create better coverage, where a bulk of their earnings is creating challenges, and now the idea is to remove that.
if people are paying $1000 to only earn challenger rewards which are 0.003 hnt each then it's their fault.
03:59
the rewards are for PoC and data transfer. that's how it is supposed to be.
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dont make much from it...
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 4:09 AM
Forgetting the rewards thing for a second, because I could really care less about that aspect of it, I’m just pointing out that plurality voting process, the 10,000 HNT staking minimum, and the trend of “it’s slow to do this in a decentralized manner at the edge so let’s pile it in the validator monolith service” that’s controlled by a small number of gatekeepers seems like the opposite direction in how the original white paper, and the Helium media machine in general has portrayed this as the “peoples network”. There’s an opportunity here to break out tasks to other lightweight services that could run in the cloud by users instead of piling functionality onto the validators and I think it’s being overlooked.
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nickpoorman
Forgetting the rewards thing for a second, because I could really care less about that aspect of it, I’m just pointing out that plurality voting process, the 10,000 HNT staking minimum, and the trend of “it’s slow to do this in a decentralized manner at the edge so let’s pile it in the validator monolith service” that’s controlled by a small number of gatekeepers seems like the opposite direction in how the original white paper, and the Helium media machine in general has portrayed this as the “peoples network”. There’s an opportunity here to break out tasks to other lightweight services that could run in the cloud by users instead of piling functionality onto the validators and I think it’s being overlooked.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 4:10 AM
But this hip is not about the voting process. If you want to talk about voting -> #hip-52-lorawan-subdao #hip-53-5g-subdao (edited)
04:10
You can also propose a new HIP for voting and governance
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
But this hip is not about the voting process. If you want to talk about voting -> #hip-52-lorawan-subdao #hip-53-5g-subdao (edited)
HIP41 has been placed into HIP52 & HIP53 under governance. If there are comments about voting, they should be placed in those channels. I have been pretty vocal against vote by token lock, because it hurts the little guy. We should keep voting simple.
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AndrewsMD
HIP41 has been placed into HIP52 & HIP53 under governance. If there are comments about voting, they should be placed in those channels. I have been pretty vocal against vote by token lock, because it hurts the little guy. We should keep voting simple.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:21 AM
Ah thanks! Haven't been catching up with those too. Good to know
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You can also propose a new HIP for voting and governance
hoptree 🇨🇦 02/18/2022 5:27 AM
But it’s far easier to come into general chat and make an ass of yourself
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05:27
Us humans too often take the easy path
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hoptree 🇨🇦
But it’s far easier to come into general chat and make an ass of yourself
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:28 AM
It's only the loud minority anyway. Was the same thing when HIP-39 came up. That was chaotic
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hoptree 🇨🇦 02/18/2022 5:29 AM
Never forget, the GIF and image ban in general ! It was awful
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Looks like the little guy is getting screwed with this one. Sad
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nickpoorman
Forgetting the rewards thing for a second, because I could really care less about that aspect of it, I’m just pointing out that plurality voting process, the 10,000 HNT staking minimum, and the trend of “it’s slow to do this in a decentralized manner at the edge so let’s pile it in the validator monolith service” that’s controlled by a small number of gatekeepers seems like the opposite direction in how the original white paper, and the Helium media machine in general has portrayed this as the “peoples network”. There’s an opportunity here to break out tasks to other lightweight services that could run in the cloud by users instead of piling functionality onto the validators and I think it’s being overlooked.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:45 AM
Thats what I think too. Dont care about 0.9% to 1.5% less however empowering the already overworked validators more doesn't feel like a decentralisation anymore, especially considering the entryfee to be a stacker after all (edited)
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feuerkralle2011
Thats what I think too. Dont care about 0.9% to 1.5% less however empowering the already overworked validators more doesn't feel like a decentralisation anymore, especially considering the entryfee to be a stacker after all (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:47 AM
So network stability is not worth it?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
So network stability is not worth it?
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:48 AM
thats where i mentioned the overworked validators. The load for the validators will increase by a lot if they create challenges and get witness callbacks
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feuerkralle2011
thats where i mentioned the overworked validators. The load for the validators will increase by a lot if they create challenges and get witness callbacks
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:48 AM
Validators are easily scalable. Hotspots on the other hand are not.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:49 AM
Right now around 40%-50% of Hotspot created PoCs fail
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 5:49 AM
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 are you telling me that there is no possible future where another class of validators is possible? Because it was explicitly mentioned as a future improvement in the AMA (edited)
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nickpoorman
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 are you telling me that there is no possible future where another class of validators is possible? Because it was explicitly mentioned as a future improvement in the AMA (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:50 AM
I'm not, could you elaborate the question?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Validators are easily scalable. Hotspots on the other hand are not.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:50 AM
I dont argue against the easier scalability for validators but the easy way would mean more centralisation and I disagree with going "the easy way" while loosing the only benefit of blockchains and this network after all
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Decentralize the validation work vs more consolidation to validators is what he is saying
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Validators are easily scalable. Hotspots on the other hand are not.
It is not as easy to scale a validator since the hardware specs are already way up there.
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groot
It is not as easy to scale a validator since the hardware specs are already way up there.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:51 AM
Is scaling hotspot software easier?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Is scaling hotspot software easier?
No, but just because it is easier to scale a validator doesn't mean it is easy.
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feuerkralle2011
I dont argue against the easier scalability for validators but the easy way would mean more centralisation and I disagree with going "the easy way" while loosing the only benefit of blockchains and this network after all
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:52 AM
Yes this is a good point, but we can also run validator pools, which would make it more decentral
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yes this is a good point, but we can also run validator pools, which would make it more decentral
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:52 AM
pools are the opposite of decentral
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groot
No, but just because it is easier to scale a validator doesn't mean it is easy.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:52 AM
But just because it's not easier, doesn't mean its harder or more unrealistic. (edited)
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feuerkralle2011
pools are the opposite of decentral
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:53 AM
Why? they are more decentral then one validator holder
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Why? they are more decentral then one validator holder
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:53 AM
pools will hold the coins for you and so it's like "not your keys not your coins"
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feuerkralle2011
pools will hold the coins for you and so it's like "not your keys not your coins"
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:54 AM
But they are yours, it's not liek you sell your tokens to them
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:54 AM
and voting with coins (like they do right now) would mean pools can vote in behalf of everyone inside it
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:54 AM
They hold them for you
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feuerkralle2011
and voting with coins (like they do right now) would mean pools can vote in behalf of everyone inside it
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:54 AM
Yes, this needs a better mechanism
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Also validator pools often run a lot of validators which is quite the opposite of decentralisation as you now have one operator running a ton of validators.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
They hold them for you
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:54 AM
they can also not allow you to withdraw then
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more and more hips are putting additional stress on validators and consolidating said work to it. Why not create other types of “validators” and split up the work.
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Baba Looey
more and more hips are putting additional stress on validators and consolidating said work to it. Why not create other types of “validators” and split up the work.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:55 AM
something like the full nodes of bitcoin would be interesting
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Baba Looey
more and more hips are putting additional stress on validators and consolidating said work to it. Why not create other types of “validators” and split up the work.
Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 5:55 AM
You mean like #hip-51-helium-dao ?
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….something
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:55 AM
rapsberry pi + hdds are totally feasable for indexing the blockchain
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feuerkralle2011
something like the full nodes of bitcoin would be interesting
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 5:56 AM
Definitely, there need to be more ways for the people to act as a valdiator
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Baba Looey
more and more hips are putting additional stress on validators and consolidating said work to it. Why not create other types of “validators” and split up the work.
One of the reasons given in the AMA for putting it at the validators is that they already do much of the work(validating the requests and receipts etc).
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Angry Pickle Bear
You mean like #hip-51-helium-dao ?
Ohh don’t get me started on that one, lol
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 5:58 AM
But I feel the decision is already made up from what I see is already stacked on the vote for "yes" . If there is no whale considering to vote "no" they wont be another outcome
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why would they
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Voting by how much hnt you hold is bs, great democracy
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sccrskills
Voting by how much hnt you hold is bs, great democracy
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:00 AM
Feel free to bring your thoughs into #hip-51-helium-dao and #hip-52-lorawan-subdao
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Won’t matter at this point, it’s already going to pass, might as well give the rich more money.
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Wait for the dao votes….
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sccrskills
Won’t matter at this point, it’s already going to pass, might as well give the rich more money.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:01 AM
Alright, then please try to add constructive feedback to this channel 👍
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Feel free to bring your thoughs into #hip-51-helium-dao and #hip-52-lorawan-subdao
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:02 AM
wouldn't these hips not also be voted for by the rich? why should they consider loosing votingpower? 😄
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Haha true
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don’t forget the steady 30% ….
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feuerkralle2011
wouldn't these hips not also be voted for by the rich? why should they consider loosing votingpower? 😄
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:02 AM
I mean if you argue like that, we could just sit and do nothing
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My opinion is yes make the network more stable but take the challenge rewards and give them to little guy in form of more money for poc or witnesses
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no talks of lowering that gradually over time
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I mean if you argue like that, we could just sit and do nothing
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:03 AM
well that feeling is what I actually have seeing this voting mechanism.
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feuerkralle2011
well that feeling is what I actually have seeing this voting mechanism.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:04 AM
I understand, but even if the odds are not in favor. Complaining here will not change anything at all (edited)
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Eventually rewards will be gone for little guy, I don’t doubt that. We maybe have 6 months to a year and helium mining will he unprofitable
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sccrskills
My opinion is yes make the network more stable but take the challenge rewards and give them to little guy in form of more money for poc or witnesses
Yup something vs more consolidation. Another mechanism. A smaller validator option.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I understand, but even if the odds are not in favor. Complaining here will not change anything at all (edited)
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:04 AM
If my comments feel like complaining then I'm sorry. These are just mindgames and arguments I have got right now
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This will pass just hope someone is listening and think more about decentralization vs adding more and more power to validators
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Once we get a million hotspots people will earn like 25 cents a day
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feuerkralle2011
If my comments feel like complaining then I'm sorry. These are just mindgames and arguments I have got right now
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:10 AM
Oh no, terribly sorry I wasn't referring to you. You had good criticism on the downsides of this hip! We need that 💪
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Adding more power to validators is totally what this network was against when it first started. Might as well just buy amazon devices, they have iot built in and you don’t get compensated for it
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 6:10 AM
My understanding was the hip process was designed to be a temperature check from the community. The temperature seems off in this discussion. Is the rewards aspect of it causing contention? Yes. Could there be other smaller validator roles? Yes. Is software development an iterative process? Yes. I believe if there had been another HIP released simultaneously to begin the discussion of smaller validator roles that don’t require the cost of a house to be staked, the contention would have been much less.
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Developers don’t care about little guy anymore. They’re big time and getting paid a lot
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sccrskills
Developers don’t care about little guy anymore. They’re big time and getting paid a lot
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:15 AM
I dont think thats the main issue here. The main issue is that the devs are eager to make this network more stable... moving stuff to validators was the fastest answer they got 🙂
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First they took consensus groups away, now challenges, next it will be something else.
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feuerkralle2011
I dont think thats the main issue here. The main issue is that the devs are eager to make this network more stable... moving stuff to validators was the fastest answer they got 🙂
nickpoorman 02/18/2022 6:16 AM
Totally understand that
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sccrskills
First they took consensus groups away, now challenges, next it will be something else.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:17 AM
there is a good reason why validators get integrated in a lot of blockchain projects right now. The main issue I see with all implementations is that the entryfee rises with the success of the network
06:18
which shouldn't be the case if you want people to decentralize it, maybe a correlation between HNT Pricing and the Amount required to start staking should be a floating number instead of static
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True, I’m just saying we’re going down the wrong path as far as giving all the power and rewards to validators. Developers are just banking on the fact people already bought their miners or got their roi
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You just can't keep a Blockchain synced on 500k+ nodes with the p2p network in place. Validators are perfect for this and they will on no way steal any of your rewards, if that is your fear. I really don't understand what the issue is.
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bcaldwell_TREKK 02/18/2022 6:21 AM
On GitHub there was a proposal to put the challenge rewards back into the pool. The validators would still see 6% of that. Seems like a pretty middle-ground compromise to me (edited)
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sccrskills
True, I’m just saying we’re going down the wrong path as far as giving all the power and rewards to validators. Developers are just banking on the fact people already bought their miners or got their roi
What power? E.g planetwatch. Your end device has nothing to see with the Blockchain. Your light hotspo will act the same
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molano
You just can't keep a Blockchain synced on 500k+ nodes with the p2p network in place. Validators are perfect for this and they will on no way steal any of your rewards, if that is your fear. I really don't understand what the issue is.
What about the cheaper hotspots that will come to market by the even more common person and cause saturation, will they take my rewards? (edited)
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sccrskills
True, I’m just saying we’re going down the wrong path as far as giving all the power and rewards to validators. Developers are just banking on the fact people already bought their miners or got their roi
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:23 AM
Well if the devs screw the miners off to much they will kill the incentive support the network. I dont thats what they want but I feel like this hip was rushed a bit to fast considering the downside of centralization
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sccrskills
True, I’m just saying we’re going down the wrong path as far as giving all the power and rewards to validators. Developers are just banking on the fact people already bought their miners or got their roi
What rewards? Validators have nothing to do with poc by design. I mean, coverage is done by hotspots. Not by validators of course. Same with data
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molano
You just can't keep a Blockchain synced on 500k+ nodes with the p2p network in place. Validators are perfect for this and they will on no way steal any of your rewards, if that is your fear. I really don't understand what the issue is.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:24 AM
It works. See Bitcoins indexing nodes for example. There a a lot of people who have some of these at home and support the network
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Except we now need to move those challenge creation over there. In order to make the whole network more stable and better. E.g. no p2p anymore.
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feuerkralle2011
It works. See Bitcoins indexing nodes for example. There a a lot of people who have some of these at home and support the network
You can be validator too. Full or partial. Same concept
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molano
You can be validator too. Full or partial. Same concept
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:25 AM
Full has a very high entry fee + the hardware. Partial means you dont have any power then moving between pools
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Yeah. So. Still missing what the issue is
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:26 AM
Moving into a pool boosts centralisation. Having a full staking node would not
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So stake a full node
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:28 AM
If you have that money then consider yourself lucky. But there are way more people who cant afford it but whats the point of decentralization if you implement oligarchy (edited)
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Earnings were great in the beginning, then they introduced Validators and moved the Consensus Groups to them. The network may have improved sure, but earnings dropped. It was the same argument back then - to offload the hotspots. They took away CG rewards and gave them to the Validators. Now, they're doing it again with the Challenger rewards, even though it's .09% or 0.9%. What's next on the target list? (edited)
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feuerkralle2011
If you have that money then consider yourself lucky. But there are way more people who cant afford it but whats the point of decentralization if you implement oligarchy (edited)
Ow comon. We are not in a Robin hood world either
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macbannai
Earnings were great in the beginning, then they introduced Validators and moved the Consensus Groups to them. The network may have improved sure, but earnings dropped. It was the same argument back then - to offload the hotspots. They took away CG rewards and gave them to the Validators. Now, they're doing it again with the Challenger rewards, even though it's .09% or 0.9%. What's next on the target list? (edited)
Remember consensus is a lottery - no guarrantee of a hotspot ever getting any consensus rewards (edited)
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molano
Ow comon. We are not in a Robin hood world either
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:31 AM
But the reason for all of this blockchain and "peoples network" is a communistic approach in that everyone should be possible to participate instead of a goverment or emperor ruling over everything
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waveform
Remember consensus is a lottery - no guarrantee of a hotspot ever getting any consensus rewards (edited)
bcaldwell_TREKK 02/18/2022 6:31 AM
I would think this would be statistically unlikely
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sccrskills
Eventually rewards will be gone for little guy, I don’t doubt that. We maybe have 6 months to a year and helium mining will he unprofitable
When did someone say that about btc?
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I just don’t see how this helps little guy, making network more stable seems like a cop out. They need to explain this more. I only see use losing rewards
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macbannai
Earnings were great in the beginning, then they introduced Validators and moved the Consensus Groups to them. The network may have improved sure, but earnings dropped. It was the same argument back then - to offload the hotspots. They took away CG rewards and gave them to the Validators. Now, they're doing it again with the Challenger rewards, even though it's .09% or 0.9%. What's next on the target list? (edited)
Well in 20+ years there will be no witness/beacon awards anyway, it decreases allocation every year
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sccrskills
I just don’t see how this helps little guy, making network more stable seems like a cop out. They need to explain this more. I only see use losing rewards
Loosing 0.002hnt per day, that is
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sccrskills
I just don’t see how this helps little guy, making network more stable seems like a cop out. They need to explain this more. I only see use losing rewards
Whats to explain? Did you read the hip completely?
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waveform
Well in 20+ years there will be no witness/beacon awards anyway, it decreases allocation every year
Then why people keep hotspot
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macbannai
Earnings were great in the beginning, then they introduced Validators and moved the Consensus Groups to them. The network may have improved sure, but earnings dropped. It was the same argument back then - to offload the hotspots. They took away CG rewards and gave them to the Validators. Now, they're doing it again with the Challenger rewards, even though it's .09% or 0.9%. What's next on the target list? (edited)
Earnings were great in the beginning, then they introduced Validators and moved the Consensus Groups to them. The network may have improved sure, but earnings dropped.
How much of your specific earnings were from CG? Over almost 18 months, I think I had one hotspot of two in one run of CG.
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molano
Loosing 0.002hnt per day, that is
It’s just the beginning of the downward trend
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feuerkralle2011
But the reason for all of this blockchain and "peoples network" is a communistic approach in that everyone should be possible to participate instead of a goverment or emperor ruling over everything
Everybody can patriciate. Certainly when light hotspots come which will be much cheaper
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waveform
Well in 20+ years there will be no witness/beacon awards anyway, it decreases allocation every year
Totally agree with you, but what does the Helium community expect will happen if we chip away at earnings to the point the earnings aren't worth it. People will bail, and it will be like a crypto avalanche. (edited)
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zee37
Then why people keep hotspot
Why do I keep Alexa plugged in when I never call upon her?
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zee37
Then why people keep hotspot
Data transfer rewards
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sccrskills
I just don’t see how this helps little guy, making network more stable seems like a cop out. They need to explain this more. I only see use losing rewards
Because right now the network overall sees 40-50% of challenges fail. Those are missed opportunities for hotspots to earn beaconing and witnessing rewards. This is the p2p network failing to do its job or the hotspots not being sync'd because they can't keep up. (edited)
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molano
Everybody can patriciate. Certainly when light hotspots come which will be much cheaper
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:34 AM
But what about the controlling instance of validators? Those are the one "ruling" the chain
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Fizzy
Why do I keep Alexa plugged in when I never call upon her?
So that Bezos can hear every word you say. You never know when he's feeling generous (edited)
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sccrskills
It’s just the beginning of the downward trend
No - we are many months into a downward HNT earnings trend, and it always will be downwards
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macbannai
Totally agree with you, but what does the Helium community expect will happen if we chip away at earnings to the point the earnings aren't worth it. People will bail, and it will be like a crypto avalanche. (edited)
Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 6:35 AM
Why mine BTC? BTC mining earnings only go down
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sccrskills
It’s just the beginning of the downward trend
Poc can just never move from hotspots. How can a validitor do poc? Same with data. Nothing else can move away from the hotspots
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krby
Because right now the network overall sees 40-50% of challenges fail. Those are missed opportunities for hotspots to earn beaconing and witnessing rewards. This is the p2p network failing to do its job or the hotspots not being sync'd because they can't keep up. (edited)
I wonder how many of those are due to the bloom filter.
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feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:36 AM
I totally agree on the other comments here that there is no incentive to be alerted about the loss of hnt. I couldn't care less if thats the bargain I have to pay for a stable network. But decentralization is key for all projects
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krby
Because right now the network overall sees 40-50% of challenges fail. Those are missed opportunities for hotspots to earn beaconing and witnessing rewards. This is the p2p network failing to do its job or the hotspots not being sync'd because they can't keep up. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:36 AM
Just leaving this here
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groot
I wonder how many of those are due to the bloom filter.
Folks in #data-analysis might be able to tell? From what I have read it is filtering out from not reaching a challengee, not getting receipts, and not being sync'd so not eligible.
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Imagine AT&T and Verizon constantly going to the properties owners of the towers and trying to get a lower price each year, they recognize they can't do that, it's an expected cost so they can provide coverage. Miners aren't seen that valuable in this network.
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molano
Poc can just never move from hotspots. How can a validitor do poc? Same with data. Nothing else can move away from the hotspots
I would just like the developers to throw us a bone as more hotspots come online losing that .002 hnt adds up
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Fizzy
Why do I keep Alexa plugged in when I never call upon her?
If I were you I would have not kept it. If I don’t call upon her.
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sccrskills
I would just like the developers to throw us a bone as more hotspots come online losing that .002 hnt adds up
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:38 AM
You will loose a lot more than this if HIP-55 doesn't pass
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krby
Folks in #data-analysis might be able to tell? From what I have read it is filtering out from not reaching a challengee, not getting receipts, and not being sync'd so not eligible.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You will loose a lot more than this if HIP-55 doesn't pass
Accepting a negative proposal isn't the best option, push back and send the brighter minds to come up with a better solution.
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macbannai
Accepting a negative proposal isn't the best option, push back and send the brighter minds to come up with a better solution.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:40 AM
Neither is letting the project run into chaos and letting the poc rate sink further below 50%
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sccrskills
I would just like the developers to throw us a bone as more hotspots come online losing that .002 hnt adds up
So so only proposals where you earn more are ok?
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molano
So so only proposals where you earn more are ok?
I’m not sure what your argument is, no one got into this not to earn money lol
06:42
Let me put up antennas everywhere for free, got it
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molano
So so only proposals where you earn more are ok?
Can we just make hotspots network to our computers to construct challenges? This is best solution, no more power to validators. Revolutiona! Troll
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sccrskills
I’m not sure what your argument is, no one got into this not to earn money lol
The_Professional 02/18/2022 6:42 AM
Start an iot company and use helium. Charge people far more than you are paying helium to move data. Simple.
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sccrskills
I’m not sure what your argument is, no one got into this not to earn money lol
Speak for yourself. I came into this as a hobby, fully expecting to lose money, that I was willing to lose, just for fun. (edited)
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Fizzy
Can we just make hotspots network to our computers to construct challenges? This is best solution, no more power to validators. Revolutiona! Troll
You can't trust non-official hotspots, people modify packets and cheat.
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sccrskills
I’m not sure what your argument is, no one got into this not to earn money lol
True, but a change to keep things alive long term with a very very little loss. Or just do nothing with an overblown p2p network ... What do you take?
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People to the same with official hotspots so that's not much of an argument.
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molano
True, but a change to keep things alive long term with a very very little loss. Or just do nothing with an overblown p2p network ... What do you take?
Chip chip chip away.
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krby
You can't trust non-official hotspots, people modify packets and cheat.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:45 AM
That could happen with validators too ^^ If you have people running the network you'll always have some people who cheat, but as long as the majority isn't everything is fine
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krby
You can't trust non-official hotspots, people modify packets and cheat.
In all realness, I 100% agree with half of that statement. Manufactures even cheat. We should be focusing on a DIY solution, why limit only company's to have an easy way to cheat?
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DMan
Speak for yourself. I came into this as a hobby, fully expecting to lose money, that I was willing to lose, just for fun. (edited)
That’s great, can you send your hnt rewards to the rest of the people who got into this for passive income
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sccrskills
That’s great, can you send your hnt rewards to the rest of the people who got into this for passive income
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 6:46 AM
So it is about your income?
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sccrskills
That’s great, can you send your hnt rewards to the rest of the people who got into this for passive income
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:46 AM
You dont get far in this argument if your only incentive is money... You'll end up with less and less rewards from poc. The endgoal is to earn money with datapackets (edited)
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macbannai
Chip chip chip away.
The_Professional 02/18/2022 6:47 AM
Have you read the dao hips? The Dao allow for other types of communications to come in that take away from your rewards. This is very small in comparison with the stuff that are coming out. 5g, wi-fi, fixed access wireless, and anything else that will be coming on the network. If you're arguing about your nine cents a day get ready for a lot more to go away.
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feuerkralle2011
You dont get far in this argument if your only incentive is money... You'll end up with less and less rewards from poc. The endgoal is to earn money with datapackets (edited)
This may be true, but how much are we saying that will earn from data packets, less than what we are now? People aren't going to like that.
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sccrskills
That’s great, can you send your hnt rewards to the rest of the people who got into this for passive income
No, many of them got into it for the wrong reason and got their research from tik tok. Also, this isn’t a socialist network. (edited)
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I’m just saying do you think majority of people who bought hotspots did it to be a Good Samaritan
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sccrskills
That’s great, can you send your hnt rewards to the rest of the people who got into this for passive income
This hip does not change your passive income at all.
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feuerkralle2011
That could happen with validators too ^^ If you have people running the network you'll always have some people who cheat, but as long as the majority isn't everything is fine
Ahh! But Validators in CG run the HBBFT protocol, which requires having than 1/3 of a given CG in order to affect CG. Since CG members are randomly chosen by a previous CG, you need a TON of validators to cheat and since the stake is high, this is really hard to do.
06:48
But with hotspots, you can buy 5 * 500USD and some gear and get rewards.
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The_Professional
Have you read the dao hips? The Dao allow for other types of communications to come in that take away from your rewards. This is very small in comparison with the stuff that are coming out. 5g, wi-fi, fixed access wireless, and anything else that will be coming on the network. If you're arguing about your nine cents a day get ready for a lot more to go away.
Made mine and many others' point.
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sccrskills
I’m just saying do you think majority of people who bought hotspots did it to be a Good Samaritan
No, they saw $$$$$ even though they are not guaranteed $$$. So we are here now saying sorry, you are not guaranteed $$$$.
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DMan
No, many of them got into it for the wrong reason and got their research from tik tok. Also, this isn’t a socialist network. (edited)
So now your bashing the guys that grew the network
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krby
Ahh! But Validators in CG run the HBBFT protocol, which requires having than 1/3 of a given CG in order to affect CG. Since CG members are randomly chosen by a previous CG, you need a TON of validators to cheat and since the stake is high, this is really hard to do.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:49 AM
My statement wasn't a approach to end all validators and move it back to miners thats for sure. But I feel like having this high of an entry fee doesn't help either 🙂
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DMan
No, many of them got into it for the wrong reason and got their research from tik tok. Also, this isn’t a socialist network. (edited)
It's a gift how you can put so much prejudice into one sentence.
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sccrskills
So now your bashing the guys that grew the network
No. The TikTok'ers. 😉
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feuerkralle2011
My statement wasn't a approach to end all validators and move it back to miners thats for sure. But I feel like having this high of an entry fee doesn't help either 🙂
But the high entry fee, plus the need for 1/3+1 of a CG is part of the mechanism of making it difficult to attack .
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macbannai
This may be true, but how much are we saying that will earn from data packets, less than what we are now? People aren't going to like that.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:50 AM
People who aren't in it for the long term wont like that. It wont hurt in the long term (thats for the argument of loosing money)
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macbannai
Made mine and many others' point.
The_Professional 02/18/2022 6:50 AM
Well if you look at 5G it's 50 cents per gigabyte you move. Wi-Fi is probably $0.10 per gigabyte. We don't know yet but it's an educated guess. We can do fiber optics, we can do fixed wireless, helium will have millions of hotspots throughout the world so we can do edge computing, we can do a lot of things. Lora is 5 to 10 years before real amounts of data gets moved. Realistically for 3 million hotspots to make $20 a month we need over a billion sensors. 5g and Wi-Fi can hit a billion devices before Lora hits 10 million. The adoption is already there. Lora was a great start but the network has to move on. (edited)
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Rewards from HNT inflation are on a longterm downwards trajectory. This is inevitable, regardless of what happens with this HIP. So if you want miners to be good earners long term, it has to come from DC expenditure. To get that expenditure, we need a strong, robust, scalable network. Focussing on HNT rewards in the near term is shortsighted.
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groot
It's a gift how you can put so much prejudice into one sentence.
Been here long enough to know who came for what reasons.
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krby
But the high entry fee, plus the need for 1/3+1 of a CG is part of the mechanism of making it difficult to attack .
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 6:52 AM
High entry fees favour the rich what isn't considerably the way for a "peoples network". I'm fully onboard with the idea to have validators closed up like that but dont give them more power and introduce something like a indexing node instead
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Fizzy
In all realness, I 100% agree with half of that statement. Manufactures even cheat. We should be focusing on a DIY solution, why limit only company's to have an easy way to cheat?
There was a DIY solution for a while, people used it to cheat, program got shut down. It's a REALLY hard problem to solve without some approval process and something like a secure element chip in the hardware.
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molano
No. The TikTok'ers. 😉
Haha all good man I just have to vent. Thanks for the discussion
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krby
There was a DIY solution for a while, people used it to cheat, program got shut down. It's a REALLY hard problem to solve without some approval process and something like a secure element chip in the hardware.
Luckily enough that all went away with HIP19 /s
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krby
There was a DIY solution for a while, people used it to cheat, program got shut down. It's a REALLY hard problem to solve without some approval process and something like a secure element chip in the hardware.
Right, we just moved that bar to a higher level of income to be able to preform, the manufacture level. Only the capital rich sources can now cheat.
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feuerkralle2011
High entry fees favour the rich what isn't considerably the way for a "peoples network". I'm fully onboard with the idea to have validators closed up like that but dont give them more power and introduce something like a indexing node instead
Ya, it's not the only way to make CGs hard to take over. But it's a common one. For any type of new node, you have to ask the question: "If a cheater could spin up 100,000 of these, what power would they have? How much could they earn? Is that more than the cost of spinning up 100,000 cheap nodes of this new type?" Coming up with a solution to that is hard. If you do, PLEASE talk about it and post a HIP! (edited)
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feuerkralle2011
High entry fees favour the rich what isn't considerably the way for a "peoples network". I'm fully onboard with the idea to have validators closed up like that but dont give them more power and introduce something like a indexing node instead
People's network is from a pov for the iot network. That network is build on a Blockchain. That blockchain is validated by the validators that have put a lot of hnt staked. So they are incentivised to make sure their validators work correctly. Otherwise they have penalties and are not selected
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krby
Ya, it's not the only way to make CGs hard to take over. But it's a common one. For any type of new node, you have to ask the question: "If a cheater could spin up 100,000 of these, what power would they have? How much could they earn? Is that more than the cost of spinning up 100,000 cheap nodes of this new type?" Coming up with a solution to that is hard. If you do, PLEASE talk about it and post a HIP! (edited)
nickpoorman 02/18/2022 6:56 AM
So the solution is throw an economic hurdle instead of one that rely on the laws of physics? Seems like a cop-out
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nickpoorman
So the solution is throw an economic hurdle instead of one that rely on the laws of physics? Seems like a cop-out
It's a solution, but there are probably others. I don't follow the "one that rely on the laws of physics" what is that? Again, I'm on board with other ways to increase "per node friction" to keep someone from taking over a pile of new node types (like a challenge node or something) (edited)
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nickpoorman 02/18/2022 6:57 AM
I’ve been managing large engineering teams for the better part of my career. If they came to me with this proposal I’d tell them to go back to the drawing board. And if I had PMs engaging in a way that only prompted their original ideas instead of listening to the users, I’d fire them.
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krby
Ya, it's not the only way to make CGs hard to take over. But it's a common one. For any type of new node, you have to ask the question: "If a cheater could spin up 100,000 of these, what power would they have? How much could they earn? Is that more than the cost of spinning up 100,000 cheap nodes of this new type?" Coming up with a solution to that is hard. If you do, PLEASE talk about it and post a HIP! (edited)
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:01 AM
Its a tough challenge you're totally right. But I, for myself, feel like there is more good in people then bad. For Validators that would mean if someone is eager to destroy the network he would face a dozen of other people who want to protect it. Its an arms race where the good side has more people participating
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@nickpoorman : IMO, That's a pretty presumptuous statement without knowing the tradeoffs the team considered or at least knowing the blockchain dev space really really well. It's not like they invented Proof-of-Stake, it's been used to good effect on other chains. What is the "one that rely on the laws of physics" hurdle idea you mentioned?
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feuerkralle2011
Its a tough challenge you're totally right. But I, for myself, feel like there is more good in people then bad. For Validators that would mean if someone is eager to destroy the network he would face a dozen of other people who want to protect it. Its an arms race where the good side has more people participating
Yes, there are likely fewer cheaters than honest people in the world, but it only takes a few, or one. If someone can spend $10K to spin up some new node that controls the challenge creation to target only their hotspots, which nets them $50K someone will do that. Scale 10K and 50K up as appropriate.
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krby
Yes, there are likely fewer cheaters than honest people in the world, but it only takes a few, or one. If someone can spend $10K to spin up some new node that controls the challenge creation to target only their hotspots, which nets them $50K someone will do that. Scale 10K and 50K up as appropriate.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:05 AM
If I sum up the good participants in a large network you would also have the high entry fee for attacking like you have right now for protecting.
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krby
@nickpoorman : IMO, That's a pretty presumptuous statement without knowing the tradeoffs the team considered or at least knowing the blockchain dev space really really well. It's not like they invented Proof-of-Stake, it's been used to good effect on other chains. What is the "one that rely on the laws of physics" hurdle idea you mentioned?
nickpoorman 02/18/2022 7:05 AM
I thought the original white paper was genius. It utilizes the laws of physics and the speed of light to figure out signal strength and positioning. I’d like to see more of that type of creative thinking here from people that I know are capable of it.
07:06
Honestly, I think this is the right direction and the optimal solution. I’m really not arguing against it.
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feuerkralle2011
If I sum up the good participants in a large network you would also have the high entry fee for attacking like you have right now for protecting.
possibly. So everyone (or many) have to run this new node type to make sure a cheater can't take over? That's a tough proposition. Especially if the node type requires ongoing fees like to VPS provider or has a some technical challenges (like being an at least willing system admin on Linux)
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nickpoorman
Honestly, I think this is the right direction and the optimal solution. I’m really not arguing against it.
Ya, I'm hugely in favor of hotspots not syncing and the benefits that go with that, but I don't like some specifics of this implementation because I'm concerned about the effect on validator performance in CG. Trying to bring up points around this has been tough, but it looks like GitHub comments about this are finally getting some attention. Full disclosure, I operate validators so I'm a whale and evil and shouldn't be trusted 😉 Now I have to go back to my day job. I'll check in more later. (edited)
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krby
possibly. So everyone (or many) have to run this new node type to make sure a cheater can't take over? That's a tough proposition. Especially if the node type requires ongoing fees like to VPS provider or has a some technical challenges (like being an at least willing system admin on Linux)
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:11 AM
It's a proposal that can be considered tough. But the software for indexing nodes shouldn't be as difficult to operate
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krby
Ya, I'm hugely in favor of hotspots not syncing and the benefits that go with that, but I don't like some specifics of this implementation because I'm concerned about the effect on validator performance in CG. Trying to bring up points around this has been tough, but it looks like GitHub comments about this are finally getting some attention. Full disclosure, I operate validators so I'm a whale and evil and shouldn't be trusted 😉 Now I have to go back to my day job. I'll check in more later. (edited)
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:12 AM
All hail the whales 🙂 Bye.
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feuerkralle2011
It's a proposal that can be considered tough. But the software for indexing nodes shouldn't be as difficult to operate
Helping out with the #validator-ops channel, it seems there ends up being a bunch of basic "linux sysadmin" stuff people don't know (why would they if they've never done it before) and tends to trip people up. This comes up with troubleshooting, upgrades, migrations between machines, security, monitoring performance, etc.
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krby
Helping out with the #validator-ops channel, it seems there ends up being a bunch of basic "linux sysadmin" stuff people don't know (why would they if they've never done it before) and tends to trip people up. This comes up with troubleshooting, upgrades, migrations between machines, security, monitoring performance, etc.
nickpoorman 02/18/2022 7:19 AM
To be fair, I don’t think running a validator service should have the same barrier to entry from a technical perspective as running a “hotspot”. Not as many validators are needed and the barrier to entry from a technical perspective can be higher.
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nickpoorman
To be fair, I don’t think running a validator service should have the same barrier to entry from a technical perspective as running a “hotspot”. Not as many validators are needed and the barrier to entry from a technical perspective can be higher.
Totally agree, my comment was in response to feuerkralle2011 saying (what I interpreted as) "a large group of the community running indexer nodes (or any new node type) would help drown out cheaters trying to take over by spinning up a bunch". That's true if the community is willing and capable. My point was many people are not capable, or maybe are (or are at least willing to learn) but not willing to invest the time. But I'm guessing, it's an opinion, not fact I can back up. (edited)
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krby
Helping out with the #validator-ops channel, it seems there ends up being a bunch of basic "linux sysadmin" stuff people don't know (why would they if they've never done it before) and tends to trip people up. This comes up with troubleshooting, upgrades, migrations between machines, security, monitoring performance, etc.
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:25 AM
Yeah you might be right. Working as a dev in a company sometimes makes me feel like being under idiots when talking to business people 😄
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:26 AM
Won’t helium need to significantly multiply the challenge rate?
07:26
Because of the amount of validators compared to hotspots is very little
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Because of the amount of validators compared to hotspots is very little
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:27 AM
From what I've read the miner asks for a challenge at the validator after x blocks. Might be wrong here but that would mean that it's not required to increase challenge creation (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:31 AM
Gotcha
07:32
So this can be exploited
07:32
Because a validator can say hey, I don’t want you to get challengers
07:32
But hey, I want you to get challenges
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Not quite, no
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nickpoorman
I thought the original white paper was genius. It utilizes the laws of physics and the speed of light to figure out signal strength and positioning. I’d like to see more of that type of creative thinking here from people that I know are capable of it.
As an author of the whitepaper I can say that the discussion here is really nothing to do with physics or hotspots
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feuerkralle2011
From what I've read the miner asks for a challenge at the validator after x blocks. Might be wrong here but that would mean that it's not required to increase challenge creation (edited)
Where did you read that? That's not how it would work. This part of the HIP is subtle, but retains the random/not-controllable hotspot targeting as the current system. Hotspots do not ASK to be challenged. The set of hexes and hotspots to be challenged isn't decided by one validator, it's by the whole CG. If you can control the CG (randomly have > 1/3 of the CG members) well you can control over the whole network. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:36 AM
So, they would increase challenge rate by a lot?…
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So am I reading this right? I paid triple the value of the hardware I received so it would earn from PoC (vs a light hotspot that is a fraction of the cost) just to have this HIP make it the same as the light hotspot?
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.Jata
So am I reading this right? I paid triple the value of the hardware I received so it would earn from PoC (vs a light hotspot that is a fraction of the cost) just to have this HIP make it the same as the light hotspot?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:36 AM
Wdym fraction
07:36
Light hotspots will have a very little price difference
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.Jata
So am I reading this right? I paid triple the value of the hardware I received so it would earn from PoC (vs a light hotspot that is a fraction of the cost) just to have this HIP make it the same as the light hotspot?
jas_williams 02/18/2022 7:36 AM
you would still earn by poc
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Yeah, you just won't issue the challenges
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krby
Where did you read that? That's not how it would work. This part of the HIP is subtle, but retains the random/not-controllable hotspot targeting as the current system. Hotspots do not ASK to be challenged. The set of hexes and hotspots to be challenged isn't decided by one validator, it's by the whole CG. If you can control the CG (randomly have > 1/3 of the CG members) well you can control over the whole network. (edited)
feuerkralle2011 02/18/2022 7:37 AM
Ah thank you for clarifying. So then @💯 Not A Bot 💯 question comes up for me as well. Maybe a hard-cap in the code will prevent over-challenging I assume? (As far as I remember this impression came from a different discussion and it stayed in my mind from there on) (edited)
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.Jata
So am I reading this right? I paid triple the value of the hardware I received so it would earn from PoC (vs a light hotspot that is a fraction of the cost) just to have this HIP make it the same as the light hotspot?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:37 AM
You know your full hotspot will be a light hotspot anyway right?
07:37
Doesn’t matter how much you bought it for
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.Jata
So am I reading this right? I paid triple the value of the hardware I received so it would earn from PoC (vs a light hotspot that is a fraction of the cost) just to have this HIP make it the same as the light hotspot?
“Light hotspot” really just means the software that the hotspot runs. It probably wasn’t worded or presented well in hindsight. You can run the “light hotspot” software on a wide range of hardware, including the hardware you already own (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
You know your full hotspot will be a light hotspot anyway right?
Sorry I meant to say Data only not light
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.Jata
Sorry I meant to say Data only not light
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:40 AM
I don’t think you understand what’s being moved onto validators
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I don’t think you understand what’s being moved onto validators
challenges and the rewards associated with it?
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.Jata
challenges and the rewards associated with it?
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.Jata
Sorry I meant to say Data only not light
Your "full hotspot" will become a "light hotspot" with this hip. It will still be challenged and witnesses and rewarded for that. It will NOT become just a "data only hotspot"
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:41 AM
Yes, but PoC stays with the full spots and light spots
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gotcha
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If full hotspots can be compensated to level the playing ground, then HIP55 could...
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capcom
“Light hotspot” really just means the software that the hotspot runs. It probably wasn’t worded or presented well in hindsight. You can run the “light hotspot” software on a wide range of hardware, including the hardware you already own (edited)
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/18/2022 7:46 AM
Are you wishing they had called it something other than "light"? It seems to confuse and trigger some people. Maybe "Hotspot NG" 🤷‍♂️ 😉
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 7:46 AM
It sounds like there are some fundamental misunderstandings about what light hotspots are. I have 4 hotspots, no validators and if I could press a button right now to turn all my RAKs into light mode, I would do it (edited)
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Are you wishing they had called it something other than "light"? It seems to confuse and trigger some people. Maybe "Hotspot NG" 🤷‍♂️ 😉
I think the wording creates confusion in the sense that it conflates hardware and software
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:47 AM
Didn’t dragino call their data only, light ? (edited)
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I was confusing it for a data only one. lol
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Didn’t dragino call their data only, light ? (edited)
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/18/2022 7:48 AM
That's confused some people as they look identical to their non-helium and data-only units. Smart recycling, bad communication.
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Validators struggle doing their current job, let's give them more! YES ON 55!
facepalm 1
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 7:51 AM
Hotspots are struggling harder
07:51
They fail 40% of PoC receipts
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That include all the spoofers sending garbage?
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Angry Pickle Bear
They fail 40% of PoC receipts
It's the Maker vs Helium not owners
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Pocket
Validators struggle doing their current job, let's give them more! YES ON 55!
and you should see how many mining hotspots are struggling to maintain a proper p2p connection and be in sync
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Pocket
Validators struggle doing their current job, let's give them more! YES ON 55!
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:52 AM
The validators are more than capable of doing this (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear
They fail 40% of PoC receipts
I would think it's more that that and especially more for place where internet infrastructure is not that great and it's routing through multiple hoops
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:53 AM
The problem is their limitations because of the I guess “code”
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How quick are light hotspots going to be out? Seems like a hnt grab by validators and penalizing those who bought full hotspots
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Owning a full hotspot is supposed to be plug/play after intial proper setup.
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Pocket
How quick are light hotspots going to be out? Seems like a hnt grab by validators and penalizing those who bought full hotspots
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:54 AM
.9% hnt grab coolcry
😆 1
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disc6789
Owning a full hotspot is supposed to be plug/play after intial proper setup.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:55 AM
No?
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Couldn't imagine being in the bobcat queue and a flood of cheap light hotspots lapping you
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:55 AM
No where is it stated that helium is plug and play lol
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Pocket
How quick are light hotspots going to be out? Seems like a hnt grab by validators and penalizing those who bought full hotspots
The software would be automatically updated by the vendor, so pretty soon after everything gets merged
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Pocket
Couldn't imagine being in the bobcat queue and a flood of cheap light hotspots lapping you
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:55 AM
The light hotspots won’t be much cheaper than the full
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
No?
I haven't touched mine for weeks now
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
The light hotspots won’t be much cheaper than the full
Thought I was seeing <$200 bogey
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Pocket
Thought I was seeing <$200 bogey
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:56 AM
No lol
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Pocket
Thought I was seeing <$200 bogey
Will happen eventually, but it’s going to take months. The same supply chain holding up current hotspots will hold up future light hotspots (edited)
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capcom
Will happen eventually, but it’s going to take months. The same supply chain holding up current hotspots will hold up future light hotspots (edited)
Fair
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capcom
Will happen eventually, but it’s going to take months. The same supply chain holding up current hotspots will hold up future light hotspots (edited)
That was me being dumb thinking of the data only ones
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I guess another option instead of moving the 0.9% from hotspots for challenge creation. Is to allow validators to charge per challenge to the hotspots? Since the validators are doing work that should be rewarded
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oops replied to the wrong person
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
No where is it stated that helium is plug and play lol
You should know what am talking about here.
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disc6789
You should know what am talking about here.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 7:57 AM
Plug n Play?
07:58
Well that depends what Initial proper setup is right?
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07:58
Someone can think just onboarding it and plugging it in is proper lol
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Someone can think just onboarding it and plugging it in is proper lol
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/18/2022 7:59 AM
Was timid, but got on the roof finally. Worth it. @sensecapmx @helium https://t.co/ecTmM6YDP1
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Plug n Play?
You do know
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+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:00 AM
Like most things, if you put in more effort you'll get a better result.
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+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:08 AM
Why is there a vote on this anyway? I thought it was already decided long ago to move to light hotspots, with new code already written and being tested, and new hardware designs already made and submitted.
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+120.83 dBm
Why is there a vote on this anyway? I thought it was already decided long ago to move to light hotspots, with new code already written and being tested, and new hardware designs already made and submitted.
Mostly it’s about the rewards moving. Anything economic should have a vote
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+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:12 AM
Hmm. Well I guess you wanted to keep the reward distribution the same you could reward the beaconer instead of the challenger.
08:13
IDK if that makes sense, but it sounds like it would be closer to the current way of things.
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+120.83 dBm
Hmm. Well I guess you wanted to keep the reward distribution the same you could reward the beaconer instead of the challenger.
But now, lone hotspots can get some rewards (a portion of the 0.9%) vs with this HIP, they will not. But, it's such small amount for the tradeoff for better performance and lower network usage, for the time when that lone hotspot is transferring lora data or has nearby peers.
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Pocket
Validators struggle doing their current job, let's give them more! YES ON 55!
Validators struggle a lot from the garbage that the hotspots are sending them, then the hotspots send dispute claims when the validators don’t receive all the info. That inflates the problem. Validators providing this makes the challenge sending and receipts go right to/from validator, much simpler flow.
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Will this help with all those failed to dial or dial failed error when responding with witnessed beacon ?
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Baba Looey
Will this help with all those failed to dial or dial failed error when responding with witnessed beacon ?
Yes. Eradicated
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capcom
Yes. Eradicated
👍 as I see 25-50% of witnessing fails because of those errors which then equates to loss of $$
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krby
But now, lone hotspots can get some rewards (a portion of the 0.9%) vs with this HIP, they will not. But, it's such small amount for the tradeoff for better performance and lower network usage, for the time when that lone hotspot is transferring lora data or has nearby peers.
To add, Will also make those lone hotspots much easier to have friends as data requirements for hotspots will be significantly less. Several hotspots on a cheap data plan vs 1 high GB plan per hotspot. (edited)
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error] <0.10159.41>@mine#6183r_onion_server:send_witness:{207,5} failed to send witness, max retry
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Baba Looey
👍 as I see 25-50% of witnessing fails because of those errors which then equates to loss of $$
Almost like this hip was a carefully designed major network upgrade that significantly benefits all hotspot operators 🤔
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Baba Looey
error] <0.10159.41>@mine#6183r_onion_server:send_witness:{207,5} failed to send witness, max retry
That’s a hotspot dispute that the validators also then have to deal with.
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Baba Looey
👍 as I see 25-50% of witnessing fails because of those errors which then equates to loss of $$
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:24 AM
No $$ are involved, actually.
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capcom
Almost like this hip was a carefully designed major network upgrade that significantly benefits all hotspot operators 🤔
Seems like a no brainer to me 😄 which also makes me wonder.....what's the catch.....🤣
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Parylizer
Seems like a no brainer to me 😄 which also makes me wonder.....what's the catch.....🤣
Those 0.0004 HNT for being a challenger go away
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Parylizer
Seems like a no brainer to me 😄 which also makes me wonder.....what's the catch.....🤣
Peeps missing this
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+120.83 dBm
No $$ are involved, actually.
sorry......loss of potential earning of hnt if selected.
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Eh that's just an unfortunate but also minor side affect. Where's the real catch 😉
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.0004 btc@$40k=$16...Who knows what Helium be worth tomorrow? Just my weird way of seeing things
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It’s certainly less earnings from that perspective. But as mentioned above, you’re likely losing a lot more due to p2p, sync and networking issues every day. Whether you or the challenger for your beacons and witnesses
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 8:36 AM
Listen I work all day, 12 hours 6 days a week, and I’m STRUGGLING to find a good explanation on this HIP 55 vote. From what I see essentially is that rewards hotspot owners who built the network and are continuing too, are now being “punished” behaving a mean of rewards being taken away and giving more to those who have millions staked? Am I on track?
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Time lost vs Minting HNT
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Deleted User
Listen I work all day, 12 hours 6 days a week, and I’m STRUGGLING to find a good explanation on this HIP 55 vote. From what I see essentially is that rewards hotspot owners who built the network and are continuing too, are now being “punished” behaving a mean of rewards being taken away and giving more to those who have millions staked? Am I on track?
👆 1
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Deleted User
Listen I work all day, 12 hours 6 days a week, and I’m STRUGGLING to find a good explanation on this HIP 55 vote. From what I see essentially is that rewards hotspot owners who built the network and are continuing too, are now being “punished” behaving a mean of rewards being taken away and giving more to those who have millions staked? Am I on track?
No I would say you are not on track. See above for a good summary, obviously I’m biased having written it
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Deleted User
Listen I work all day, 12 hours 6 days a week, and I’m STRUGGLING to find a good explanation on this HIP 55 vote. From what I see essentially is that rewards hotspot owners who built the network and are continuing too, are now being “punished” behaving a mean of rewards being taken away and giving more to those who have millions staked? Am I on track?
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:39 AM
More like the network has grown so large that the hotspots can no longer keep up with all the heavy lifting. This change removes (relocates) the majority of their computational burden. (edited)
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0.9% less rewards that now go to Validators that already earn 1/3 of the rewards***
facepalm 2
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Baba Looey
👍 as I see 25-50% of witnessing fails because of those errors which then equates to loss of $$
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 8:40 AM
Everyone has that, if that gets resolved all people having that problem will be solved, people that have a higher percentage of the 'failed to dialc would then take rewards from you, so this might end up lower earnings in the end for people that have a low percentagebof the failed to dial
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CZ
0.9% less rewards that now go to Validators that already earn 1/3 of the rewards***
Where do people get these stats from? Validators earn 6% of the rewards
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If that amount is so insignificant, have it re-distributed to all hotspot owners and people will not be upset
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 8:40 AM
Well, thank you tenfold for that haha! I’ve lost literally hundreds just to the RAK SD issue and constantly going offline due to how large the network is growing. This makes so much more sense, thank you guys!!!
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Baba Looey
👍 as I see 25-50% of witnessing fails because of those errors which then equates to loss of $$
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:40 AM
i wish, i lose upto 89% of my possible rewards. 17/19
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capcom
Where do people get these stats from? Validators earn 6% of the rewards
Where do you get 6%?
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CZ
Where do you get 6%?
From the code, site, docs, really any place that actually explains the rewards
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We see Helium as a huge global structure for the people and every single bit is equally huge to the people.
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so challenges will be done by validators does this mean that BLACKLISTED hs will be able to challenge too ?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:43 AM
they do already
08:43
that's hip40 though
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cryptoz
so challenges will be done by validators does this mean that BLACKLISTED hs will be able to challenge too ?
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:43 AM
No. No HS will ever challenge.
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at all
08:44
well yeah i like the idea
08:44
but me as a validator will do extra work 😄
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capcom
From the code, site, docs, really any place that actually explains the rewards
OK, that's one me for being wrong. Still, I don't understand why little by little the rewards are being reallocated.
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CZ
OK, that's one me for being wrong. Still, I don't understand why little by little the rewards are being reallocated.
Hotspots no longer construct challenges. Why should they be paid for them?
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@CZ the rewards of a challenge wont affect ur rewards
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cryptoz
but me as a validator will do extra work 😄
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:44 AM
will you though, since you dont have to sync the hotspots any more? I've not figured that out yet.
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 8:45 AM
Is there any discussion on hotspots that have been already ordered if this is passed? (Not delivered/shipped) Something like partial refunding? If they’re going to decrease in value due to the lower hardware requirements…. Hold on this may cause some scalpers to panic sell.
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its 0.00004
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CZ
OK, that's one me for being wrong. Still, I don't understand why little by little the rewards are being reallocated.
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:45 AM
The work (and its reward) is being relocated. It's being done because the hotspots can't keep up with the workload. (edited)
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We’re also talking about the smallest possible amounts of HNT here, something like 0.02/mo based on the above
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this does mean that we need to scale the validators though @capcom or do we have enough to do the job u think ?
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capcom
Hotspots no longer construct challenges. Why should they be paid for them?
You're moving away from a decentralized network and rewarding only a select few (validators) What's my motivation or leverage to expand the network when there is barely any wiggle room the way it is now. I can offer dollars to hosts at this point.
facepalm 1
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CZ
OK, that's one me for being wrong. Still, I don't understand why little by little the rewards are being reallocated.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:46 AM
hotspots gain 1% per year until the cap year... which this would change to hotspots gaining .991% per year until the cap.
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CZ
You're moving away from a decentralized network and rewarding only a select few (validators) What's my motivation or leverage to expand the network when there is barely any wiggle room the way it is now. I can offer dollars to hosts at this point.
None of this is accurate. Validators earn 6% and Hotspots earn 61% of the HNT
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CZ
You're moving away from a decentralized network and rewarding only a select few (validators) What's my motivation or leverage to expand the network when there is barely any wiggle room the way it is now. I can offer dollars to hosts at this point.
again hotspots challenge will gain u 1 hnt a year maybe or not even
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CZ
You're moving away from a decentralized network and rewarding only a select few (validators) What's my motivation or leverage to expand the network when there is barely any wiggle room the way it is now. I can offer dollars to hosts at this point.
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:47 AM
Uh, same as it always was.
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capcom
None of this is accurate. Validators earn 6% and Hotspots earn 61% of the HNT
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:47 AM
hot spots also gain more each year from the funders, while validators are locked at the 6/6.9%
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what does decentralize have to do with this ?
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HIP 56 - Donate Your 0.9% Construction Rewards to Fizzy. Better Solution? Who's in? Thinkies
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validators are not HELIUM inc only
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capcom
We’re also talking about the smallest possible amounts of HNT here, something like 0.02/mo based on the above
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 8:47 AM
What does the .02/mo stand for? Is that per month?
passed 2
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
hot spots also gain more each year from the funders, while validators are locked at the 6/6.9%
Yup, good point too
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cryptoz
again hotspots challenge will gain u 1 hnt a year maybe or not even
@current exchange rate
❔ 1
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 8:48 AM
Its more then that, just the last 24 hours i got ,0075 for challenges. That would make like .2 a month
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disc6789
@current exchange rate
lol so ur getting 61% already and worry about 0.9 ?
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disc6789
@current exchange rate
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:49 AM
It's HNT. There is no exchange involved.
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cryptoz
lol so ur getting 61% already and worry about 0.9 ?
You still don't get the point...we are looking into the future of decentralization and not present state
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the point of the discussion should be is it more healthier for validators to do this operation instaed of HS
08:50
not the 1%\
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+120.83 dBm
It's HNT. There is no exchange involved.
It's digital currency
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disc6789
It's digital currency
It is not.
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disc6789
You still don't get the point...we are looking into the future of decentralization and not present state
+120.83 dBm 02/18/2022 8:50 AM
The validators are already required for the network to function. HIP-55 does not change this.
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Its as much of a currency as my used copy of Uncharted for PS3. (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:51 AM
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what about the challenges that are relayed ? hs that dont work that dont challenge at all ?
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Fizzy
It is not.
whatever it is to you am ok with that
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are 3500 validators enough though ?
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cryptoz
lol so ur getting 61% already and worry about 0.9 ?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:53 AM
august of this year, it's 62% and every august goes up 1% until it caps at 79%
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im guessing most hotspot hosts are not fully appreciating how many poc challenges/beacons/witnesses fail due to p2p and networking issues today, or how much HNT is lost due to being out of sync
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:54 AM
I cant believe gateway operators are complaining about this.
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capcom
im guessing most hotspot hosts are not fully appreciating how many poc challenges/beacons/witnesses fail due to p2p and networking issues today, or how much HNT is lost due to being out of sync
totally agree
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
I cant believe gateway operators are complaining about this.
We see all the benefits HIP55 will bring but we are weary of changes that tip the balance
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
I cant believe gateway operators are complaining about this.
it's the same thing in very vote, people who don't like the change make a lot of noise, those that do vote and move on (edited)
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08:57
if you had read the noise about HIP39 it made it seem like a landslide no vote
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disc6789
We see all the benefits HIP55 will bring but we are weary of changes that tip the balance
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:57 AM
it tips no ballance.
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capcom
if you had read the noise about HIP39 it made it seem like a landslide no vote
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:57 AM
true
08:57
any one hotspot owner or not, can go invest in a node pool
08:57
some pools offer voting now, or plan to.
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most of the times MOST not all of the time the hips are to improve the network so people should do some readings
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 8:59 AM
Once everyone cleared up that this idea works on testnet, and is a viable solution, i'm really surprised it turned to fighting over a .9% possible reward
08:59
which due to network conditions noone is currently getting .9% of their rewards from challenges sent
08:59
unless the hotspot is busted
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the relayed hotspot already make you want to smash the HS 😄
🔨 1
09:01
and the offline HS already dont do anything
09:01
and out of sync
09:01
and blacklisted
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cryptoz
the relayed hotspot already make you want to smash the HS 😄
Why are you talking like this?
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so the validators is a good idea
09:01
cz the beacon end up as 0
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:02 AM
09:03
actual results from a hotspot doing ove 3x network average daily. 0.00 hnt earned this month from submitting challenges
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:03 AM
but hey lets cry about losing .9% of 0
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no its not crying they are looking at it from a point of why giving it to the validators
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:04 AM
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:04 AM
It’s more so the worry of being left in the dark for building a network. Not crying.
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but they dont understand the benefits it brings to the chain and increase in rewards
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:04 AM
that a different manufacturer doing the same 3x network average .00 hnt earned in a month
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:04 AM
But now that I understand, I’m ALL for it. I’m tired of my HS’s constantly crashing and out of sync lol
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❤️ 1
09:05
Possibility to improve reliability of off grid too?
💯 1
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Deleted User
Possibility to improve reliability of off grid too?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:05 AM
makes off grid simple
09:06
no more ports and relays
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:06 AM
No kidding?!?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:06 AM
off-grids will now provide reliable coverage
09:06
100% if it works once it gets to main-net.
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Deleted User
But now that I understand, I’m ALL for it. I’m tired of my HS’s constantly crashing and out of sync lol
You will also lose your earnings
facepalm 1
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09:08
And validators vill earn more
09:08
Will
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CZ
OK, that's one me for being wrong. Still, I don't understand why little by little the rewards are being reallocated.
Who ever does this work should get the rewards for doing this work. It could be a validator or a new node it doesn't matter. But whoever does the work should get the 0.9% rewards no matter how insignificant it is.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:08 AM
Ramp Validators Regarding HIP 25,https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/master/0025-validators.md,Copied and Modified from @geophokus on Discord. All mistakes by @usurper. Want to change numbers? Go to File --> Make a Copy ...
09:09
every year hotspots get 1% more until they reach a 79% of minted hnt cap
09:09
validators are getting a 1 time .9% bonus for taking on a load of work
09:10
in no way are hotspots "losing out" on this
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Anthonyra
Who ever does this work should get the rewards for doing this work. It could be a validator or a new node it doesn't matter. But whoever does the work should get the 0.9% rewards no matter how insignificant it is.
I got it.
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:10 AM
Will the amount of time I spend offline and being relayed, I’d say I can afford to lose out on 0.9%. ROI is still there. And it’s clear.
09:10
With*
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Yes but what to do whit miner that costs 700usd that came last monts and pays out 3usd/ day
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:13 AM
Plus scalper/resaller prices I’m estimating are going to plummet. I’ll just purchase more HS’s anyways. With not having to worry about ports, this opens so many doors.
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So are we voting no or yes?
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We are approaching the point where simply owning a hotspot doesn't mean you'll "earn". Moving data is the end goal and if you do the math we are very far from this happening in reality. So instead of being concerned on why 0.9% is being removed (because the hotspots won't be doing this work no more).. it might be better for us to look at how we can move 7,000 DC per day to offset it. It's important to note that this work "challenging" still needs to be done or no-one gets rewards from PoC without it. (edited)
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rs6abt
Yes but what to do whit miner that costs 700usd that came last monts and pays out 3usd/ day
But you have that problem regardless of this HIP?
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We’re still doing the ‘this hip makes your hotspot a light hotspot’? Since when does moving challenger stuff to validators magically make a hotspot a light hotspot?
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:15 AM
3usd/ day is exaggerating it. Unless you’re in a bad location. Time to look at better locations @rs6abt
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rs6abt
Yes but what to do whit miner that costs 700usd that came last monts and pays out 3usd/ day
so if 0.9 is removed u will loose nothing 😄
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how long will it take until implementation after vote has passed?
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groot
We’re still doing the ‘this hip makes your hotspot a light hotspot’? Since when does moving challenger stuff to validators magically make a hotspot a light hotspot?
I guess in theory you could nuke your blockchain.db and still function just fine once this happens.
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psil
how long will it take until implementation after vote has passed?
depends on the dev team
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:16 AM
@Anthonyra interesting
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Anthonyra
I guess in theory you could nuke your blockchain.db and still function just fine once this happens.
It’s one step towards light hotspots but the way it is presented as if we’re voting on light hotspots really pisses me off, it’s almost like real politics😂
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groot
It’s one step towards light hotspots but the way it is presented as if we’re voting on light hotspots really pisses me off, it’s almost like real politics😂
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:18 AM
it's become real politics, $$ is involved
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groot
It’s one step towards light hotspots but the way it is presented as if we’re voting on light hotspots really pisses me off, it’s almost like real politics😂
Its oppisite the peopels network
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Click to see attachment 🖼️
I earn from challenges. 3 challenges per day. I also earn 3 x network average
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groot
It’s one step towards light hotspots but the way it is presented as if we’re voting on light hotspots really pisses me off, it’s almost like real politics😂
Then again this requires gRPC support so the light hotspot software is needed unless they have a plan to bridge in the meantime?
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rs6abt
Its oppisite the peopels network
Cyborgs network?
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capcom
Cyborgs network?
Seven of nine🙃
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capcom
Cyborgs network?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:19 AM
inanimate network?
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:20 AM
It is pretty crazy how much weight only 400 votes have though…
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Deleted User
It is pretty crazy how much weight only 400 votes have though…
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:20 AM
isn't it weighted by the hnt behind those votes?
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:20 AM
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) Yes
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Anthonyra
Then again this requires gRPC support so the light hotspot software is needed unless they have a plan to bridge in the meantime?
So this is required for light hotspots and light hotspots are required for this?😅
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groot
So this is required for light hotspots and light hotspots are required for this?😅
Unless, they add gRPC support to the current firmware. I guess in a way?... I feel I'm missing something since I haven't been working on this directly though
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:22 AM
To have the daily regret of not buying it at 2.40$/per 🙃
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Deleted User
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) Yes
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:22 AM
my business partners own this wallet. Someone convince me to vote against this hip, and i'll have my partner go cast the vote.
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there is literally no reason to vote against it. go make it pass
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:24 AM
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) unfortunately that’s not up to me. I’d think he’d be making his own decisions with that make stake?
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So you have enough for a ton of validators and choose not to, not a lot of commitment
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psil
there is literally no reason to vote against it. go make it pass
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:25 AM
if it looked like it was going to lose, i'd place the call. atm he stays out of votes, and trusts in Cokes Capcom and the rest to build the network
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groot
So you have enough for a ton of validators and choose not to, not a lot of commitment
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:25 AM
he owns 3 validators as well, actually
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1.6 million and only 3 validators? Your friend needs a financial advisor lol
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:27 AM
People’s network controlled by very few people.
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rawrmaan
1.6 million and only 3 validators? Your friend needs a financial advisor lol
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:29 AM
he needs a crypto tax pro this year. lol
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rs6abt
You will also lose your earnings
I would say you would actually earn more since less of witnesses will be lost in p2p transmission
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not having to keep blockchain in sync and less storage failure will also increase earnings for most people
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:38 AM
Yup, gonna be earning plenty more.
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Do I understand this correctly? Right now there are hotspots out there with low earnings because of syncing issues, no port forwarding, and sd card issues. Moving the PoC challenges to the validators resolves these issues. In theory, won't that increase the earnings for the hotspots with those issues?
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TruffleFry
Do I understand this correctly? Right now there are hotspots out there with low earnings because of syncing issues, no port forwarding, and sd card issues. Moving the PoC challenges to the validators resolves these issues. In theory, won't that increase the earnings for the hotspots with those issues?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:38 AM
as well as make off-grid deployments more viable for those less technical
09:39
and someone mentioned due to the restrained isp networks in developing countries this will aid in their deployment as well
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What's the point of voting when the whales drive everything
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Almost twice as many votes anyway if you don’t count HNT
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capcom
Almost twice as many votes anyway if you don’t count HNT
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:45 AM
less of those in favor are probably even voting since it has the win by such a large margin already
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can we check the wallets that voted ? i am trying to go back to the first minute it came out to see who made a big hnt difference
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:47 AM
Just a thought, what if there was a “tax bracket” like model implemented into the voting structure? The heavier you are the more your vote is “taxed”. So it evens out the voters field a bit?
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09:48
Obviously no actual losses $$$
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cryptoz
can we check the wallets that voted ? i am trying to go back to the first minute it came out to see who made a big hnt difference
just look at which wallets did the token burns
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yeah doing so but scrolling way way back 😄
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:49 AM
Cause if someone brand new were to get in now, looking at the voting stats, it almost looks like a monopoly and I’d get as far away from HNT network as I could. Just doesn’t look good for new users.
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09:50
Don’t care who you are, you can’t tell me it’s a good a look.
09:51
Well, actually I’d like to hear other viewpoints haha
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Deleted User
Don’t care who you are, you can’t tell me it’s a good a look.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:53 AM
i think we all agree we want a better voting system, a GREAT one just hasn't been proposed yet, but there is hip41
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Deleted User
Well, actually I’d like to hear other viewpoints haha
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:55 AM
however we do atleast require a 2/3rds majority to pass, so despite misconceptions, those in opposition only need 34% of the vote
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Deleted User 02/18/2022 9:58 AM
@Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) ah yes yes, always forget that
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 10:00 AM
the no's don't even have to win, just garner 34% support for their opposition stance.
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capcom
But you have that problem regardless of this HIP?
Why do you called problem, chief?
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Deleted User
Cause if someone brand new were to get in now, looking at the voting stats, it almost looks like a monopoly and I’d get as far away from HNT network as I could. Just doesn’t look good for new users.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 11:10 AM
So basically you are saying, you’d choose to keep .9% HNT over a stable network and consistent rewards?
11:10
The amount the hotspots earn from challenges daily is so fractional we shouldn’t even talk about the rewards dropping lol
11:10
If anything with more consistent earnings you’ll earn more
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
If anything with more consistent earnings you’ll earn more
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 11:18 AM
Or less because surrounding miners start to work better then they did and take away some of the potential earnings would make otherwhise
11:18
Its a bit of a double edged blade imo
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 11:18 AM
But then we have a larger network
11:18
With more coverage
11:19
And because it will be more stable it’ll bring in more potential partners
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 11:19 AM
Depends on the region, i assume alot of the 'broken' part also happens in the oversaturated areas.
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 11:27 AM
FYI, spread the word. Live AMA and discussion today with developers and veteran community members about HIP-55. https://discord.gg/qAUeX3Ga?event=944313025249288213
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Angry Pickle Bear pinned a message to this channel. 02/18/2022 11:29 AM
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Angry Pickle Bear
FYI, spread the word. Live AMA and discussion today with developers and veteran community members about HIP-55. https://discord.gg/qAUeX3Ga?event=944313025249288213
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 11:33 AM
Will this be recorded? Thats past my bedtime so wont be able to join
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Will this be recorded? Thats past my bedtime so wont be able to join
Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 11:33 AM
@rawrmaan , I assume this will be recorded?
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the vote is fraud!! 65% of all votes are against hip 55.but these votes only make up 6% overall. validators have much bigger amounts of hnt than the normal hotspot owner. for sure this survey will end with a vote for hip 55. thats not okay and not what the most of the community wants!!! this isnt a really decentralized decision and for all those who have waited months for their devices it isnt a fair survey!!! (edited)
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Plenox
the vote is fraud!! 65% of all votes are against hip 55.but these votes only make up 6% overall. validators have much bigger amounts of hnt than the normal hotspot owner. for sure this survey will end with a vote for hip 55. thats not okay and not what the most of the community wants!!! this isnt a really decentralized decision and for all those who have waited months for their devices it isnt a fair survey!!! (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 11:35 AM
Your device will still do PoC and earn from that. Why is it a fraud?
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There are some great additions in the issue on GitHub that, when added, would make it a no brainer for me.
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Plenox
the vote is fraud!! 65% of all votes are against hip 55.but these votes only make up 6% overall. validators have much bigger amounts of hnt than the normal hotspot owner. for sure this survey will end with a vote for hip 55. thats not okay and not what the most of the community wants!!! this isnt a really decentralized decision and for all those who have waited months for their devices it isnt a fair survey!!! (edited)
How do you think that? Where are you looking? As of right now: For HIP 55 2,062,686.33 HNT 1,074 Votes Against HIP 55 155,534.07 HNT 638 Votes Ignoring the HNT, that is 1712 total people voted, 638 of them voted against. That is 37% of people voted against.
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Plenox
the vote is fraud!! 65% of all votes are against hip 55.but these votes only make up 6% overall. validators have much bigger amounts of hnt than the normal hotspot owner. for sure this survey will end with a vote for hip 55. thats not okay and not what the most of the community wants!!! this isnt a really decentralized decision and for all those who have waited months for their devices it isnt a fair survey!!! (edited)
65%?
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Ohhh. I see. I just searched for posts from "Plenox" and that user is just posting a similar message over and over again. A previous comment here (and also in #general) said something about "half of these are against and only weight 6%" which also is not true.
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krby
How do you think that? Where are you looking? As of right now: For HIP 55 2,062,686.33 HNT 1,074 Votes Against HIP 55 155,534.07 HNT 638 Votes Ignoring the HNT, that is 1712 total people voted, 638 of them voted against. That is 37% of people voted against.
sorry u have right. 37% of all votes are against and only will weighted with 6%.because the votes are weighted on how much hnt you have. validators have much higher ammounts than one of the hotspot owners. all validators for sure vote for this update, so it isnt a fair survey for me. this survey can only end with a win for hip 55. it cant be that 1000 votes makes 93% and 650 votes are only 6% that is a manipulated survey! for me it has reward technically only disadvantages without a great advantage for the network.
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Plenox
sorry u have right. 37% of all votes are against and only will weighted with 6%.because the votes are weighted on how much hnt you have. validators have much higher ammounts than one of the hotspot owners. all validators for sure vote for this update, so it isnt a fair survey for me. this survey can only end with a win for hip 55. it cant be that 1000 votes makes 93% and 650 votes are only 6% that is a manipulated survey! for me it has reward technically only disadvantages without a great advantage for the network.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 11:59 AM
I think a lot of people who are voting for it dont have validators. (edited)
11:59
Including me
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I think a lot of people who are voting for it dont have validators. (edited)
and some of us that do have validators still aren't sure of the technical details so haven't voted yes. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:00 PM
I dont mind losing .9% of my HNT rewards, I'd definitely rather have a stable network and more consistent rewards which could lead to even an increase in my earnings than a decrease
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I think a lot of people who are voting for it dont have validators. (edited)
for what reason u vote yes?
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Plenox
for what reason u vote yes?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:01 PM
read above (edited)
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@Plenox : So you don't see how you'll get more rewards overall if the network is more stable and your hotspots have a higher chance of being rewarded for being challenged, witnessing, and being witnessed ? (edited)
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if u dont be challenger soon ur rewards will be lower than today?!?
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Plenox
if u dont be challenger soon ur rewards will be lower than today?!?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:02 PM
Challenging make up a fractional amount of your earnings
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Plenox
if u dont be challenger soon ur rewards will be lower than today?!?
You will lose out on the 0.9% of HNT per epoch, but the side effect is that more challenges and witnesses will succeed. Where now the 40% (I think that's the number) fail.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:03 PM
Yep, thats whats being thrown around, 40% of the challenges on the network are failing due to non configured or incorrectly configured hotspots
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@Plenox In order for hotspots to create challenges, they have to sync the blockchain and be on the p2p network. Hip-55 changes that so no more hotspot problems with relayed or port forwarding or being out of sync. Your hotspots will always be available to be challenged, witness, and submit receipts (to be rewarded) for that. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:04 PM
Thats why I think this should pass, we want a stable network to bring in more partners that can rely on the network without it being down once a month
12:04
Since Im in for the long run, I want to be here when data transfer will make up the majority of earnings
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@Plenox : So the tradeoff is to move the "creating challenges" work away from hotspots (and take the 0.9% HNT per epoch along with that work) but in exchange the syncing, p2p, relayed problems that cause so many challenge and witness failures go away. Many (some?) here think that leads to higher overall rewards for hotspots and better more valuable network overall. (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear
@rawrmaan , I assume this will be recorded?
Yes it will be
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:06 PM
hey raw whats ur thoughts on 54 and 55
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12:07
Or potato (edited)
12:07
You can choose potato
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
hey raw whats ur thoughts on 54 and 55
Join the AMA to find out! Or if you can't make it, watch the recording afterwards
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rawrmaan
Join the AMA to find out! Or if you can't make it, watch the recording afterwards
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 12:08 PM
will do
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@Plenox : Finally, if you don't like the voting system, PLEASE propose something else, or go talk in #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 Many voting systems have been discussed, they all have upsides and downsides. Is there a better one? Maybe? Probably?
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Plenox
sorry u have right. 37% of all votes are against and only will weighted with 6%.because the votes are weighted on how much hnt you have. validators have much higher ammounts than one of the hotspot owners. all validators for sure vote for this update, so it isnt a fair survey for me. this survey can only end with a win for hip 55. it cant be that 1000 votes makes 93% and 650 votes are only 6% that is a manipulated survey! for me it has reward technically only disadvantages without a great advantage for the network.
Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 12:10 PM
Validators only represent 35% of the total HNT
12:11
About 60-66% of HNT is given to hotspot miners
12:11
since the beginning of Helium
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krby
@Plenox : So you don't see how you'll get more rewards overall if the network is more stable and your hotspots have a higher chance of being rewarded for being challenged, witnessing, and being witnessed ? (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 12:13 PM
To be fair i think this will result in lower rewards. Healthier network is more people wanting a piece of the pie
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NL_Miniterror_NL
To be fair i think this will result in lower rewards. Healthier network is more people wanting a piece of the pie
heh, ya that's another level of meta. But you're right. Less failures -> more rewards per hotspot right now -> more hotspots deployed -> less actual rewards per individual hotspot
12:15
We need to scale this down to just my set of hotspots!
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I think people are failing to acknowledge that the transition to light hotspots will enable a truly passive income generating experience for hotspot owners. Instead of having to keep a watchful eye on your hotspots to make sure they're online, not relayed, synced, and earning rewards, you can just set it and forget it. That alone is worth 0.9% of total rewards imo.
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krby
@Plenox : So you don't see how you'll get more rewards overall if the network is more stable and your hotspots have a higher chance of being rewarded for being challenged, witnessing, and being witnessed ? (edited)
I don’t think you are going to get more rewards (unless you are refering to the reward frequency and not HNT) - its a fixed reward pool so more beacons means less HNT per beacon. It should make the reward frequency more stable though. I’m for this HIP 100% but don’t think it equals more HNT rewards
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More uptime certainly will lead to more rewards.
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deasydoesit
More uptime certainly will lead to more rewards.
Totally agree. Just not that because 40% of challenges fail that there will be an increase in rewards if they don’t
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 12:48 PM
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:50 PM
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:50 PM
All hotspots will be "light".
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
All existing Hotspots today will become "light" via a software upgrade. future Hardware will also be running the light hotspot software, but its guts does not need to be as powerful as the hotspots today
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
All hotspots will be "light".
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 12:50 PM
I have read this but somehow it does not really answer my questions
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BlauerBrokkoli
I have read this but somehow it does not really answer my questions
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:51 PM
I was getting there... 😉
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission.
this is incorrect. all hip-19 approved hotspots earn reward for PoC and paid for data transmission.
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
- Where will they be placed?
exactly where current hotspots are placed.
- Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots?
yes, software upgrade.
- Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable?
same rules apply. they can be installed where ever you want. not portable. how else do you participate in proof of coverage?
- If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO?
we don't talk ROI here. #rules
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:52 PM
- Where will they be placed? Anywhere you would place a hotspot. - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? No replacement needed. All hotspots will be light hotspots. - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? They are the same as current hotspots. - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Prices for Light hotspots is unknown.
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BlauerBrokkoli
Today I saw a post about the Light Hotspots, but still do not quite understand what will change. As far as I understand, after the HIP55 election, the era of Light Hotspots will dawn. For me this means that the strong hotspots will get less rewards for PoC and the light hotspots will be paid for data transmission. But how will this look exactly or what is the difference for Light hotspots? - Where will they be placed? - Will every hotspot be replaced with a light hotspot or will there be many more light hotspots? - Will Light Hotspots be installed outdoors or indoors, or are they portable? - If a Light Hotspot costs $200-500, what is the RIO? Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
Will there still be regular hotspots in the future and if so, what tasks will they perform?
once light hotspots are launched, all hotspots will be "light" in that they do not sync the blockchain
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 12:53 PM
image credit: Capcom (also in the Pins 📌 ) (edited)
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12:55
Light hotspots will do all PoC just like now, except for sending Challenges. They will still get rewards for Beacons, Witnessing, and Data transfers.
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 12:58 PM
I ask because there is one thing I still don't fully understand. Logically, there will be fewer rewards for the expansion of the network. Instead, there will be rewards for transporting data. I just wonder how high the remuneration will be. Let's say it would be too low, of course it could be that people don't put up hotspots anymore or if theirs break, they don't replace them with new ones? Or will the hotspots be so cheap that it will be worth it in any case? Is there already a calculation, whether e.g. per Gigabye data transmission something goes to the hotspot, which forwards the data ? I am particularly interested in this because I am currently looking for some sensors that I could make good use of, but the choice is logically still very limited at this stage and I would like to know with what capacity in the future data can be transmitted.
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deasydoesit
I think people are failing to acknowledge that the transition to light hotspots will enable a truly passive income generating experience for hotspot owners. Instead of having to keep a watchful eye on your hotspots to make sure they're online, not relayed, synced, and earning rewards, you can just set it and forget it. That alone is worth 0.9% of total rewards imo.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
image credit: Capcom (also in the Pins 📌 ) (edited)
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:00 PM
Thank you, I have already read all that in the podcast and I also understood that, but I am still missing a bit of a picture of exactly how this will work with the data transfer, so a kind of "big picture" vllt a kind of graphic that illustrates it a little better.
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zero
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:03 PM
Well, I have been running my hotspots for 9 months and never had any problems, I just changed the antennas sometimes. But of course it depends a little on the location, I have all at 80 m height, there you have somehow not so many problems
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BlauerBrokkoli
Well, I have been running my hotspots for 9 months and never had any problems, I just changed the antennas sometimes. But of course it depends a little on the location, I have all at 80 m height, there you have somehow not so many problems
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:03 PM
80m?? niiiice
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:05 PM
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Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:05 PM
So, we betted on light hotspots very early (too early?). Let me give some insights why light hotspots must happen: - no more blockchain syncing so less CPU power required so also less energy required, our light hotspots use +/- 2-3W @ 12V, so real offgrid setups are possible. - no more blockchain syncing so no more disk/SD-card wear, light hotspots basically don’t require any persistent storage - the hardware is somewhat cheaper to manufacture, prices will be lower especially once the IC shortages finally clear - the data consumption is lowered a lot allowing for 4G/LTE based hotspots - no public IP is required, the issues with relaying are gone.
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Tim | LongAP
So, we betted on light hotspots very early (too early?). Let me give some insights why light hotspots must happen: - no more blockchain syncing so less CPU power required so also less energy required, our light hotspots use +/- 2-3W @ 12V, so real offgrid setups are possible. - no more blockchain syncing so no more disk/SD-card wear, light hotspots basically don’t require any persistent storage - the hardware is somewhat cheaper to manufacture, prices will be lower especially once the IC shortages finally clear - the data consumption is lowered a lot allowing for 4G/LTE based hotspots - no public IP is required, the issues with relaying are gone.
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:07 PM
As an example, let's say starting tomorrow all hotspots are Light Hotspots, how will the rewards be divided?
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BlauerBrokkoli
As an example, let's say starting tomorrow all hotspots are Light Hotspots, how will the rewards be divided?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:08 PM
The 0.9% given to those that generate challenges more to the Validators. Everything else is the same as now.
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BlauerBrokkoli
As an example, let's say starting tomorrow all hotspots are Light Hotspots, how will the rewards be divided?
Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:08 PM
The rewards that go to hotspots today for challenging go to validators, that’s all and around 1% (edited)
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Tim | LongAP
The rewards that go to hotspots today for challenging go to validators, that’s all and around 1% (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:09 PM
Jinx. 😉
clappypepe 1
13:10
To everyone saying "But my rewards!! They're stealing it all!"... It works out to about $11 a year. More than worth it. (edited)
13:11
You lose far more than that due to the p2p issues that this solves.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
image credit: Capcom (also in the Pins 📌 ) (edited)
People complain about blockchain interruptions, while the network continues to grow exponentially. This puts more and more pressure on Hotspots to keep up. This FIX, (i.e., conversion from Hotspot to light spot), has been in the planning and discussion stages for months before this HIP was presented. It is absolutely necessary for a functioning stable network. Less than 1% of HNT earnings drop is insignificant when you consider the alternative of a blockchain that is constantly halting. If we do nothing, and LoRaWAN hotspots grows to 1 million, 5 million, then what? Multiple full on blockchain halts for weeks on end???? Sometimes, there are expenses that you just can’t afford NOT to spend. This is one of those times. I fully support HIP54 & 55.
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Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:12 PM
Aaaand validator based challenging will be much more reliable (no more witness delivery issue) so for hotspots in less populated areas you can actually earn more.
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Tim | LongAP
The rewards that go to hotspots today for challenging go to validators, that’s all and around 1% (edited)
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:12 PM
That is, everything remains as it is. The existing hotspots get just as much as before, only 1% less, only that everything becomes a bit less complicated, because you can use smaller hotspots and no longer have port forwarding problems and the hotspots become cheaper, right? I thought that the function of the hotspots will change completely, so the hotspots mainly only transfer data and you get for example for 10 GB data transfer 1 HNT or so. Or will that only come in 10 years, at least that's how it looks on the roadmap?
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Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:12 PM
Damn @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
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BlauerBrokkoli
As an example, let's say starting tomorrow all hotspots are Light Hotspots, how will the rewards be divided?
Same as they do today, minus 0.9%
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AndrewsMD
People complain about blockchain interruptions, while the network continues to grow exponentially. This puts more and more pressure on Hotspots to keep up. This FIX, (i.e., conversion from Hotspot to light spot), has been in the planning and discussion stages for months before this HIP was presented. It is absolutely necessary for a functioning stable network. Less than 1% of HNT earnings drop is insignificant when you consider the alternative of a blockchain that is constantly halting. If we do nothing, and LoRaWAN hotspots grows to 1 million, 5 million, then what? Multiple full on blockchain halts for weeks on end???? Sometimes, there are expenses that you just can’t afford NOT to spend. This is one of those times. I fully support HIP54 & 55.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:13 PM
Can we not continue conflating 54 and 55 please? 😄 They are not really related at all 🙂
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Tim | LongAP
Damn @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:13 PM
Hmm? 🙂
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BlauerBrokkoli
That is, everything remains as it is. The existing hotspots get just as much as before, only 1% less, only that everything becomes a bit less complicated, because you can use smaller hotspots and no longer have port forwarding problems and the hotspots become cheaper, right? I thought that the function of the hotspots will change completely, so the hotspots mainly only transfer data and you get for example for 10 GB data transfer 1 HNT or so. Or will that only come in 10 years, at least that's how it looks on the roadmap?
Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:14 PM
Earning for Data-only is only for non-HIP-19 approved hotspots and yes maybe 10 years or so
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hmm? 🙂
Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:14 PM
You were quicker again 🤭
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BlauerBrokkoli
That is, everything remains as it is. The existing hotspots get just as much as before, only 1% less, only that everything becomes a bit less complicated, because you can use smaller hotspots and no longer have port forwarding problems and the hotspots become cheaper, right? I thought that the function of the hotspots will change completely, so the hotspots mainly only transfer data and you get for example for 10 GB data transfer 1 HNT or so. Or will that only come in 10 years, at least that's how it looks on the roadmap?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:14 PM
No, light hotspots aren't the same as data-only hotpots. 🙂
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Tim | LongAP
You were quicker again 🤭
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:14 PM
oh.. lol
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AndrewsMD
Same as they do today, minus 0.9%
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:15 PM
Well, then I understood it correctly, I mean that is totally fair 0.9% less is nothing, for so much more comfort. But I myself would like to transfer data, have so far found only a few channels in which people do it practically, I think currently it is still a little complicated. Will it remain with small data packets, so something like GPS, electricity or temperature data?
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throwed money.. this helium is honestly a serious scam... day by day more and more, I didn't think it would be like this.
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stanic5ar
throwed money.. this helium is honestly a serious scam... day by day more and more, I didn't think it would be like this.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:16 PM
"Scam" is pretty harsh accusation to not back up...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"Scam" is pretty harsh accusation to not back up...
This peoples story ? right.. Its all but not people story
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, light hotspots aren't the same as data-only hotpots. 🙂
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:17 PM
Data Only will probably be available when the network is fully expanded and meets the corresponding quality standards. That will probably still be far in the future. At least that's how it looks on the map right now, in my opinion. Are there factors by which the network quality is measured, or what the network must fulfill so that it is considered ready and good enough?
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BlauerBrokkoli
Well, then I understood it correctly, I mean that is totally fair 0.9% less is nothing, for so much more comfort. But I myself would like to transfer data, have so far found only a few channels in which people do it practically, I think currently it is still a little complicated. Will it remain with small data packets, so something like GPS, electricity or temperature data?
Data Transfer is indeed the end goal. As the use cases for LoRaWAN coverage increase, so will your data transfers.
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BlauerBrokkoli
Well, then I understood it correctly, I mean that is totally fair 0.9% less is nothing, for so much more comfort. But I myself would like to transfer data, have so far found only a few channels in which people do it practically, I think currently it is still a little complicated. Will it remain with small data packets, so something like GPS, electricity or temperature data?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:17 PM
Perhaps helpful
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stanic5ar
throwed money.. this helium is honestly a serious scam... day by day more and more, I didn't think it would be like this.
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:18 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion that's exactly the point, isn't it? How to expand a network in such a short time if it does not develop so quickly ?
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stanic5ar
throwed money.. this helium is honestly a serious scam... day by day more and more, I didn't think it would be like this.
Tim | LongAP 02/18/2022 1:18 PM
People have way too high expectations. A lot of people run a TheThingsNetwork LoRa hotspot, do you know what compensation they get? 0, not even data-credits.
13:19
Not even a T-shirt
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Perhaps helpful
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:20 PM
Thank you, exactly I know the chart and that is what I am referring to. There you can see that the share of the rewards for the network expansion goes down over time and instead the share for the data transmission is distributed. However, I was not sure where exactly we are in the chart and I was not quite clear before whether the second phase is taken over by completely different hotspots. But you have now explained to me that the regular hotspots will be converted to light hotspots and later to data only hotspots via a software update.
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Tim | LongAP
Not even a T-shirt
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:21 PM
Our classic logo tee, perfect for all occasions! 100% combed and ring-spun cotton (Heather colors contain polyester) Heather colors are 52% combed and ring-spun cotton, 48% polyester Black Heather are 90% combed and ring-spun cotton, 10% polyester Fabric weight: 4.2 oz (142 g/m2) Pre-shrunk fabric Shoulder-to-shoulder
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BlauerBrokkoli
Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion that's exactly the point, isn't it? How to expand a network in such a short time if it does not develop so quickly ?
Exact.. But the story is sold raspberry-s to people, for 500-600-700$ they buy, and that is the whole catch.. And now convert hotspots to ligh thotspots, and we earn 0.5$ per month.. Great 👏
13:21
i personaly pay 3500euros for hotspot and equipments..
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BlauerBrokkoli
Thank you, exactly I know the chart and that is what I am referring to. There you can see that the share of the rewards for the network expansion goes down over time and instead the share for the data transmission is distributed. However, I was not sure where exactly we are in the chart and I was not quite clear before whether the second phase is taken over by completely different hotspots. But you have now explained to me that the regular hotspots will be converted to light hotspots and later to data only hotspots via a software update.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:21 PM
I think we're somewhere in year2-3
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:22 PM
I would buy my girlfriend a bikini with two helium symbols
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stanic5ar
throwed money.. this helium is honestly a serious scam... day by day more and more, I didn't think it would be like this.
DM me. I can organize a purchase of your Hotspot investment if you really want out. I am still deploying hotspots. After this HIP passes, I'll be deploying LightSpots + 5G.
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stanic5ar
Exact.. But the story is sold raspberry-s to people, for 500-600-700$ they buy, and that is the whole catch.. And now convert hotspots to ligh thotspots, and we earn 0.5$ per month.. Great 👏
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:24 PM
If you're earning that little hnt a month, sounds like a setup issue. #hotspot-help
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you're earning that little hnt a month, sounds like a setup issue. #hotspot-help
u have reading issue.. 😄
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stanic5ar
Exact.. But the story is sold raspberry-s to people, for 500-600-700$ they buy, and that is the whole catch.. And now convert hotspots to ligh thotspots, and we earn 0.5$ per month.. Great 👏
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:25 PM
But I understand, for now, we get the same rewards as before, minus 1%. At the moment I make about 0.8 - 1.1 HNT / day with each hotspot, which would still be enough for now. But I myself would like to see more practical applications right now, I don't want to just run the hotspots, I want to use them in a practical and useful way. But there is far too little talk about this, in my opinion.
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BlauerBrokkoli
But I understand, for now, we get the same rewards as before, minus 1%. At the moment I make about 0.8 - 1.1 HNT / day with each hotspot, which would still be enough for now. But I myself would like to see more practical applications right now, I don't want to just run the hotspots, I want to use them in a practical and useful way. But there is far too little talk about this, in my opinion.
08-11? u are idol..
13:26
im 0.10 with 1.00 ts ..
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blaurer: what are you expecting?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
image credit: Capcom (also in the Pins 📌 ) (edited)
half the strength 02/18/2022 1:26 PM
these is good barrier to entry. if too easy, too many hotspots avg earnings go down.
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lora is awesome but it will take years before telco's and other companies replace their current 3g stack
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well see, if btc go to zero, maybe we sell hnt for 1000 😄
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Carl-bot BOT 02/18/2022 1:27 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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stanic5ar
im 0.10 with 1.00 ts ..
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:27 PM
And my transit scale is 0,12. So it depend on the height. Will the Antennas be smaller in the future? For Data only? (edited)
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BlauerBrokkoli
And my transit scale is 0,12. So it depend on the height. Will the Antennas be smaller in the future? For Data only? (edited)
im 90meters height.. top of solitaire.. and 0.10.. becouse i have 300witnesses, and all of them its 0.05ts.. rewards so small, plus on that, network works every 3 hrs, then stop, and again .. circle period
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stanic5ar
u have reading issue.. 😄
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:30 PM
and we earn 0.5$ per month..
I read just fine.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
and we earn 0.5$ per month..
I read just fine.
If hip55 convert our "hotspots" to light hotspots in that case we earn 0.5$ per month
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13:31
that what im want to say
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BlauerBrokkoli
But I understand, for now, we get the same rewards as before, minus 1%. At the moment I make about 0.8 - 1.1 HNT / day with each hotspot, which would still be enough for now. But I myself would like to see more practical applications right now, I don't want to just run the hotspots, I want to use them in a practical and useful way. But there is far too little talk about this, in my opinion.
I hear you loud and clear. It truly relates to which came first. The chicken or the egg. The reason that the LoRaWAN flywheel spun so successfully, is because of the ROI for building the network before the use cases are complete. After the network is built across the world, use cases will come from unseen places. Think DIMO, think other uses that haven't even been thought of yet, etc. We just need to focus on building the network. LoRaWAN, 5G, WI-FI, LIFI, whatever else works well with Helium. As we do that, as the use case skyrockets, your HNT tokens will rise to the moon, or Mars, or even Pluto.
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stanic5ar
im 90meters height.. top of solitaire.. and 0.10.. becouse i have 300witnesses, and all of them its 0.05ts.. rewards so small, plus on that, network works every 3 hrs, then stop, and again .. circle period
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:31 PM
I am using currently a 5 and 5.8 dBi, the 5 dBi is a the moment better performing with 400 Witnesses, what are you using?
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BlauerBrokkoli
I am using currently a 5 and 5.8 dBi, the 5 dBi is a the moment better performing with 400 Witnesses, what are you using?
mcgill 9
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half the strength
these is good barrier to entry. if too easy, too many hotspots avg earnings go down.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:32 PM
The point is a large network, not a walled garden for the few. Where's the cries of "people's network" now? (edited)
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if you want a quick get rich thing.. o/
13:32
just dont
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stanic5ar
If hip55 convert our "hotspots" to light hotspots in that case we earn 0.5$ per month
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:33 PM
That math is not right.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The point is a large network, not a walled garden for the few. Where's the cries of "people's network" now? (edited)
i know, and understaind.. But when be activated, hotspots cost 150$ right ?
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AndrewsMD
I hear you loud and clear. It truly relates to which came first. The chicken or the egg. The reason that the LoRaWAN flywheel spun so successfully, is because of the ROI for building the network before the use cases are complete. After the network is built across the world, use cases will come from unseen places. Think DIMO, think other uses that haven't even been thought of yet, etc. We just need to focus on building the network. LoRaWAN, 5G, WI-FI, LIFI, whatever else works well with Helium. As we do that, as the use case skyrockets, your HNT tokens will rise to the moon, or Mars, or even Pluto.
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:33 PM
I'm aware of that, and I'm also totally excited to see what applications there will be in the future. I think the network will develop incredibly and I'm glad that we are all part of it. When our kids start using it and it's well established, you can tell them that you were part of it.
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and people who paid 500-1000 threw away money?
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stanic5ar
i know, and understaind.. But when be activated, hotspots cost 150$ right ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:34 PM
No. People that say new light hotspots will be $150 are dreaming. lol 😉
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stanic5ar
i know, and understaind.. But when be activated, hotspots cost 150$ right ?
dude , u seems like the male version of karen and u want to talke to Helium manger becouse u cant order ur lambo after 3 weeks mining
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stanic5ar
i know, and understaind.. But when be activated, hotspots cost 150$ right ?
All that can be said is that the price of lightspots, should be less than current hotspots, because they will be less costly to produce. $150/spot is an estimate.
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ZakZouk
dude , u seems like the male version of karen and u want to talke to Helium manger becouse u cant order ur lambo after 3 weeks mining
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:35 PM
No need to be insulting. #rules
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:35 PM
I think it doesn't matter if a hotspot costs $100 or $500. At least at the moment. Because if the HNT price goes up to 100 $ or 200 $, then the 100 euros you earn are suddenly worth 10 times that, then the purchase was only peanuts.
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there are good reasons why until now you could not just build something yourself to join *(sybil)
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AndrewsMD
All that can be said is that the price of lightspots, should be less than current hotspots, because they will be less costly to produce. $150/spot is an estimate.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:36 PM
If they go under $300 within the first year of availability, I'd be shocked.
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AndrewsMD
All that can be said is that the price of lightspots, should be less than current hotspots, because they will be less costly to produce. $150/spot is an estimate.
Okay i knew that, but what will happen with existing hotspots ? like nebra,rak,bobcats,sense,etc... will they be converted to light hotspots, or what happens?
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Max - Just Max 02/18/2022 1:36 PM
We’re doing another AMA?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No need to be insulting. #rules
sorry but i was enjoying the discussion about hip 55 and learning more form u guys and it went anther side , about earning and and rewards
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 1:36 PM
thesoftware converts
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stanic5ar
Okay i knew that, but what will happen with existing hotspots ? like nebra,rak,bobcats,sense,etc... will they be converted to light hotspots, or what happens?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:37 PM
https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots/ Yes, all hotspots will be "light"
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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Max - Just Max
We’re doing another AMA?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:37 PM
2pm PST 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots/ Yes, all hotspots will be "light"
Max - Just Max 02/18/2022 1:37 PM
“I paid for a full hotspot, not a light hotspot. Why am I being downgraded?”
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:37 PM
(22 minutes away)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots/ Yes, all hotspots will be "light"
... not good
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Max - Just Max
“I paid for a full hotspot, not a light hotspot. Why am I being downgraded?”
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:38 PM
Not really a downgrade. 🤷‍♂️ 🙂
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stanic5ar
... not good
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:38 PM
Why not?
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stanic5ar
... not good
do you want your hotspot to continue painfully syncing with sd card issues and relay problems?
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stanic5ar
... not good
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:38 PM
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stanic5ar
and people who paid 500-1000 threw away money?
I feel your pain if you purchased 100+ hotspots and are still waiting for them to be delivered. In that case, . . . yes, there is some loss there, or a reduction in ROI as I see it. But even still, how many opportunities are there to get a positive ROI on an investment within 6-9 months? Still good money in my opinion.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not really a downgrade. 🤷‍♂️ 🙂
Max - Just Max 02/18/2022 1:39 PM
The quotes was something I saw on Reddit
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cokes
do you want your hotspot to continue painfully syncing with sd card issues and relay problems?
You know SanDisk is going to hate you for light hotspots, their sales were going to well😂
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Max - Just Max
The quotes was something I saw on Reddit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:40 PM
Yeah, figured. 😁
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cokes
do you want your hotspot to continue painfully syncing with sd card issues and relay problems?
yes im okay with that
facepalm 1
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stanic5ar
yes im okay with that
really? you don't want to mine HNT?
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stanic5ar
yes im okay with that
we are used to it, and why change everything now..
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groot
You know SanDisk is going to hate you for light hotspots, their sales were going to well😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:41 PM
But... 80% of the support questions we answer are about relay. We'll lose our roles. Think of the Mentors! lol
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cokes
really? you don't want to mine HNT?
issue, we know will be solved for 3-4 hrs.. And circle going up..
facepalm 1
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groot
You know SanDisk is going to hate you for light hotspots, their sales were going to well😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:41 PM
man, I just bought some SDs and a reader too! 🥲
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But... 80% of the support questions we answer are about relay. We'll lose our roles. Think of the Mentors! lol
As you like to say to people who complain: your tasks will only be down marginally, so stop complaining
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cokes
do you want your hotspot to continue painfully syncing with sd card issues and relay problems?
BlauerBrokkoli 02/18/2022 1:41 PM
I have never understood how you can have relay problems. Open router menu, release port, thats it ..
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its the value of hnt in the future , dont look at currrent price / hnt per day . take a look in riddt for example one year ago when people were complaning of earning 5 hnt aday , and see the value of 5 hnt now and in the future (edited)
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stanic5ar
issue, we know will be solved for 3-4 hrs.. And circle going up..
good luck to you.
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groot
As you like to say to people who complain: your tasks will only be down marginally, so stop complaining
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:42 PM
Nature abhors a void. Some other issue will fill the vacuum. 😅
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BlauerBrokkoli
I have never understood how you can have relay problems. Open router menu, release port, thats it ..
You’ve never had a failed beacon from a relayed challenger?
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cokes
good luck to you.
can u tell me as admin, will hotspots work on the same principle of rf signal, witness's, beacons? awards?
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BlauerBrokkoli
I have never understood how you can have relay problems. Open router menu, release port, thats it ..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:43 PM
Hang out in #hotspot-help for a few hours... 😉
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BlauerBrokkoli
I have never understood how you can have relay problems. Open router menu, release port, thats it ..
exactly , am mining 2 moths , did port forward on day 1 and never been in relay
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Who has link to summary of pros and cons?
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stanic5ar
can u tell me as admin, will hotspots work on the same principle of rf signal, witness's, beacons? awards?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:44 PM
Did you read the doc I gave you?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:44 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Thanks
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Did you read the doc I gave you?
yes but why hotspot get cheaper ? its be 20 milions of hotspots , ts will be 0.00 xD
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stanic5ar
yes but why hotspot get cheaper ? its be 20 milions of hotspots , ts will be 0.00 xD
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:45 PM
Install in areas that need them... There are far more open area than filled. (edited)
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stanic5ar
yes but why hotspot get cheaper ? its be 20 milions of hotspots , ts will be 0.00 xD
Deploy your lightspots in better locations, . . . get better rewards.
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yes for normal people, but they will buy in they will throw in places where there is already a sea of ​​hotspots, and create chaos
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Install in areas that need them... There are far more open area than filled. (edited)
would hip 55 help against location spoofing ?
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ZakZouk
would hip 55 help against location spoofing ?
i dont think so..
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stanic5ar
yes for normal people, but they will buy in they will throw in places where there is already a sea of ​​hotspots, and create chaos
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:47 PM
And they will reap the rewards in scale with their usefulness to the network.
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ZakZouk
would hip 55 help against location spoofing ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:47 PM
No
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No
sad 😦 we got tone of them in Belgium
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stanic5ar
yes for normal people, but they will buy in they will throw in places where there is already a sea of ​​hotspots, and create chaos
Truth, . . . and their reward will be commensurate to their location. You have the "above normal" understanding, so you will be more prepared to grow the network in an advantageous way.
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ZakZouk
sad 😦 we got tone of them in Belgium
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:48 PM
Other efforts are running to fix those. 🙂
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ZakZouk
sad 😦 we got tone of them in Belgium
it will be more..
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:49 PM
Denylist, HIPs 40, 42, 44, etc...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Other efforts are running to fix those. 🙂
yes deny listing was great idea
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ZakZouk
yes deny listing was great idea
deny listing its just like height meters u put on app.. in any case .. may God help .. I see that this is not going in the direction it should go ..
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stanic5ar
deny listing its just like height meters u put on app.. in any case .. may God help .. I see that this is not going in the direction it should go ..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:51 PM
Maybe you're thinking of some other denylist? lol
13:51
Anyway, we've drifted way off topic... 🙂
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cheesus
I don’t think you are going to get more rewards (unless you are refering to the reward frequency and not HNT) - its a fixed reward pool so more beacons means less HNT per beacon. It should make the reward frequency more stable though. I’m for this HIP 100% but don’t think it equals more HNT rewards
I think what will happen is that rewards will become more evenly and accuratly distributed
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i see lot deny hotspots , work okay..
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stanic5ar
deny listing its just like height meters u put on app.. in any case .. may God help .. I see that this is not going in the direction it should go ..
it aculay work , i saw the last days many suspiciouse hotspots around me in denylist and its acualy works , even wen i send baecon it gives indecation who see me and how far they are and there activties
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stanic5ar
i see lot deny hotspots , work okay..
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 1:52 PM
It works only if the Challenger has the denylist. HIP40 fixes that loophole.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It works only if the Challenger has the denylist. HIP40 fixes that loophole.
in that case its okay.. If we play, play fair.. Be correct and and it would be good for that correctness to be rewarded ..
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stanic5ar
in that case its okay.. If we play, play fair.. Be correct and and it would be good for that correctness to be rewarded ..
yes but most cheaters are on big boys , mostly a wallet with 20-40 hotspots
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ZakZouk
yes but most cheaters are on big boys , mostly a wallet with 20-40 hotspots
I know but, we only can watch and be happy for our 0.5-0.10hnt per day..
13:56
for that reason I don't think this is going right where it should go ..
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stanic5ar
I know but, we only can watch and be happy for our 0.5-0.10hnt per day..
dude u can do better , its ur location , every Pieceof ur hardware hieght and testing anttenas , i went from 0.05 to 0.5 after testing 3 anttenas and changing 2 locations . took me 2 mothes
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ZakZouk
dude u can do better , its ur location , every Pieceof ur hardware hieght and testing anttenas , i went from 0.05 to 0.5 after testing 3 anttenas and changing 2 locations . took me 2 mothes
i try my bro 5 dif, antennas.. Im stay on mcgill9 .. And that is that.. But u can to have 500dbi, its not a catch in hardware.. Folks editing firemwares and doing better than u ..
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if you call going form normale miner to light donwgrade , i downgrad my anttena from 8 to 4dbi and worked beter
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Light HS will lower the cost of the gear and more user will enter the market. That means more are sharing the same amount of HNT. less HNT for us.
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yea
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stanic5ar
I know but, we only can watch and be happy for our 0.5-0.10hnt per day..
At some point, the helium's coverage will be undeniable, and the use cases will skyrocket with more and more companies buying HNT to convert to DC in order to use the technology. This makes the HNT value go up, up up. People will then look back and say two things, "I should have not sold my HNT, unless it was to grow the network (remember the bitcoin pizza guy - lol)" and "I was fussing about 0.1 HNT/day???" When the market is fearful over a Russian invasion, just dig more trenches, build the network even more, and when the sun comes out, enjoy the sun tan and a frosty beverage.
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making the HS more "affordable" will cause more people to share the same amount of HNT.
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DRKminer
making the HS more "affordable" will cause more people to share the same amount of HNT.
All it takes is a HIP to address this. The community will continue to modify its reward system for the benefit of the entire ecosystem. (edited)
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AndrewsMD
At some point, the helium's coverage will be undeniable, and the use cases will skyrocket with more and more companies buying HNT to convert to DC in order to use the technology. This makes the HNT value go up, up up. People will then look back and say two things, "I should have not sold my HNT, unless it was to grow the network (remember the bitcoin pizza guy - lol)" and "I was fussing about 0.1 HNT/day???" When the market is fearful over a Russian invasion, just dig more trenches, build the network even more, and when the sun comes out, enjoy the sun tan and a frosty beverage.
It will be or not will be.. Roulette 50-50.. But people need to back their investitions
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Voting link?
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Join the event stage for a live ama on hip55
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/18/2022 2:04 PM
Ama is live
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dont have sense to vote.. it will be activated.. Vote is there just for fun..
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AndrewsMD
All it takes is a HIP to address this. The community will continue to modify its reward system for the benefit of the entire ecosystem. (edited)
With light HS the reward scale must be modified. Reward the "full" HS for the costly investment.
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stanic5ar
It will be or not will be.. Roulette 50-50.. But people need to back their investitions
Fun fact. Exactly 12 months ago, the value of HNT was ~$4/HNT. A little over 18 months ago, it was less than 50 cents. This is way better than Roulette 🙂 . It's technology, and DC burn 🙂 (edited)
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AndrewsMD
Fun fact. Exactly 12 months ago, the value of HNT was ~$4/HNT. A little over 18 months ago, it was less than 50 cents. This is way better than Roulette 🙂 . It's technology, and DC burn 🙂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 2:12 PM
Now work out the same time with avg HNT earned factored in. 😉
partyparrot 1
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AndrewsMD
Fun fact. Exactly 12 months ago, the value of HNT was ~$4/HNT. A little over 18 months ago, it was less than 50 cents. This is way better than Roulette 🙂 . It's technology, and DC burn 🙂 (edited)
How dare you
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DRKminer
With light HS the reward scale must be modified. Reward the "full" HS for the costly investment.
I can't deny your pain or frustration, especially if you deploy 100+ Hotspots purchased at manufacturer's retail price. However, just think about how much time it is taking to get your existing hotspot orders. Do you really think that reduced cost lightspots will be so readily available that they will be able to produce them and ship them in time to compete with your projected ROI in a meaningful way? If you bought your units on ebay for $3,500 each, . . . not sure what to tell you. (edited)
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Light hotspots have been in the pipeline for ages. Anyone who bought a hotspot recently must have known they were coming and that they would become cheaper in time. I don't have much sympathy for people demanding a greater share of rewards because efficiency savings will drive expansion of the network.
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Helium network will crash in 8-12 months if people dont make a minimum 0.2 per day...... you will see a masive plug off
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If they could just get control of all the spoofing and hacking rewards would be a lot better. Think about how much HNT is being handed to people cheating the system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 2:26 PM
partyparrot 1
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El Huron
Helium network will crash in 8-12 months if people dont make a minimum 0.2 per day...... you will see a masive plug off
Unlikely, but if that happens, I and other soldiers will be there to gobble up the HNT emissions. Less pie to carve up I guess. Alternatively, you can move your hotspot(s) to a better location.
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Ok, so I ordered a bobcat in September and now someone will order a light and we will start mining under the same conditions at the same time, and I have invested three times more. Do you think that I am a victim of fraud?
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AndrewsMD
Unlikely, but if that happens, I and other soldiers will be there to gobble up the HNT emissions. Less pie to carve up I guess. Alternatively, you can move your hotspot(s) to a better location.
Right there with you. Let'em drop. I'll just deploy more hotspots.
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El Huron
Helium network will crash in 8-12 months if people dont make a minimum 0.2 per day...... you will see a masive plug off
Why 0.2? Does it matter what the value of HNT is?
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paul?
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Top
Ok, so I ordered a bobcat in September and now someone will order a light and we will start mining under the same conditions at the same time, and I have invested three times more. Do you think that I am a victim of fraud?
No. Light hotspots have been in the pipeline for ages. Everyone had access to that information.
14:30
Everyone knew this was coming
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@AndrewsMD i dont complain i make with 2 miners 0.7 a day🤣 i just read on europe discord chat what people say
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Would we then loose the visibility of IP of hotspot (listen_addrs) which in some instances is useful (along with all other symptoms) to find gamers? (edited)
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Top
Ok, so I ordered a bobcat in September and now someone will order a light and we will start mining under the same conditions at the same time, and I have invested three times more. Do you think that I am a victim of fraud?
Why do you think light hotspots would appear faster than the hotspot you ordered? They’re coming from the same vendors with the same supply chain…
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Top
Ok, so I ordered a bobcat in September and now someone will order a light and we will start mining under the same conditions at the same time, and I have invested three times more. Do you think that I am a victim of fraud?
I ordered more than one Bobcat, . . . way before September, . . . I am not victimized. I'm growing the network and planning for 5G.
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@capcom for 80% of people it matter becouse most of them invested allot in helium
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I shouldn’t have asked. Nothing to do with this HIP
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AndrewsMD
I ordered more than one Bobcat, . . . way before September, . . . I am not victimized. I'm growing the network and planning for 5G.
I'm glad for you, but you missed the point of the story that could have been "I ordered 1000 bobcats in September ..."
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sorry guys, i just joined. from what i understand is that the earnings compared to the devices is same, the lite hotspots will be equal with the "real" ones which have been on the market? got i this right?
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Top
I'm glad for you, but you missed the point of the story that could have been "I ordered 1000 bobcats in September ..."
ROI is ROI, whether it is 1, more than 1, or 1,000. I don't see EMRIT on here crying about lightspots. EMRIT is prolly saying, . . . nice. We get to grow the network with less cost.
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MTWISP
sorry guys, i just joined. from what i understand is that the earnings compared to the devices is same, the lite hotspots will be equal with the "real" ones which have been on the market? got i this right?
All devices will have an equal chance of earning, but people will pay less (in theory) for light-only hotspots because they have lower hardware requirements
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AlexC
All devices will have an equal chance of earning, but people will pay less (in theory) for light-only hotspots because they have lower hardware requirements
What are the differences in hardware requirements? (edited)
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AlexC
All devices will have an equal chance of earning, but people will pay less (in theory) for light-only hotspots because they have lower hardware requirements
ok, thanks for confirmation, i thought i missed somewhat. doesnt sound pretty fair to me, but ya. it is how it is. meanwhile we discuss this here hotspots are going offline due issues with the API connection, no idea if someone already is on this
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Top
I'm glad for you, but you missed the point of the story that could have been "I ordered 1000 bobcats in September ..."
I am not dismissing your point, . . . its kinda like, "Hey, . . . I bought that device last month and now its on sale for 50% off". I get it. But I also get the bigger picture. Ape in, grow the network and HODL. Forgive me for having a smooth brain and all 🙂
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TruffleFry
What are the differences in hardware requirements? (edited)
I don't know, the makers will have to figure that out, but compute requirements will be minimal and storage requirements will be limited to what is required for software (edited)
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Isn't a large part of the HS cost, the onboarding costs to Helium?
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Kuleramme
Isn't a large part of the HS cost, the onboarding costs to Helium?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 3:25 PM
Manufacturers and vendors pay for onboarding
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15:26
Its one of the requirenments
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That is they problem, not ours.. We pay high price for hotspot..
15:27
and we need to take back our investition, and after that.. they can do whatever want..
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Thank you for the call. Great job to moderators, presenters and those with questions
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what is target date range and price range estimates for light hotspots
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My point was simply that a certain part of the HS cost is fixed by the onboarding cost that are obviously part of your HS purchase price (edited)
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i just got on the end of the call. will it be posted somewhere
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Kuleramme
My point was simply that a certain part of the HS cost is fixed by the onboarding cost that are obviously part of your HS purchase price (edited)
it is but maybe that will go down too and i think its only 40 bucks?
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deeks
i just got on the end of the call. will it be posted somewhere
yes, when the recording is edited/processed, @rawrmaan will post a link here (edited)
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deeks
i just got on the end of the call. will it be posted somewhere
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 3:30 PM
Arman Dezfuli-Arjomandi and guests discuss the fast-growing Helium network, providing worldwide coverage for IoT devices with LoRaWAN technology.
15:30
Pretty sure there is a youtube channel also
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 3:39 PM
I still dont get how challenges will work. Validators do them, but how will hotspots know.. I heard something that the hotspot will have a lost of validators, will this be pushed from CG so the hotspot knows wich one to talk too, or are there some fixed ones and if they are not in CG they will tell wich ones actually are in CG?
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I still dont get how challenges will work. Validators do them, but how will hotspots know.. I heard something that the hotspot will have a lost of validators, will this be pushed from CG so the hotspot knows wich one to talk too, or are there some fixed ones and if they are not in CG they will tell wich ones actually are in CG?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 3:45 PM
Validators & Light Hotspot Communication All Validators, whether they are in consensus or not, sync blocks normally to keep up with the blockchain. As a part of normal processing, they will pull the public key hashes from the block metadata and, with the block hash, generate the same entropy as the Consensus Group members to identify the target H3 region. The Validators will then pull a list of all Hotspots within that region and send each Hotspot connected to them a notification message informing them of a challenge within their region. The notification provides the onion key hash of the Challenge and, more importantly, the necessary routing data (public key and IP) to enable the Light Hotspot to connect to the Challenger Validator. All Hotspots, upon receipt of a challenge notification, will send a request over gRPC to the Challenger Validator to check if they are the target. The request will be signed by the Challengee and also include the onion key hash it received from their Validator. The Challenger will verify the signature of the requesting Hotspot and, if it is indeed the target, a Challenge onion payload will be returned. Upon receipt of the Challenge payload, the Challengee will then transmit the Challenge packet as described above and as currently exists in the Helium network.
(edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/18/2022 3:47 PM
A lot of technical stuff but im not reading the answer to my question, or im missing it while translating it
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capcom
the requests are outbound from the hotspot, so no
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 3:47 PM
This doesn't seem to match you saying that it was all outbound. Seems there are at least 2 phases of the communication that require inbound messages from the validators.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This doesn't seem to match you saying that it was all outbound. Seems there are at least 2 phases of the communication that require inbound messages from the validators.
its a reply to something outbound, much like what your web browser does
15:51
once a socket/connection is open its not an issue
15:53
no way we'd put ourselves through trolls complaining about 0.02 HNT/mo if it didn't dramatically improve the situation
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capcom
once a socket/connection is open its not an issue
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 3:54 PM
ah gotcha 🙂
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Is there any roundup form podcast?
16:07
Something more to read. As couldn’t join live
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BanaN
Is there any roundup form podcast?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/18/2022 4:10 PM
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🟠 T3chie | Bitoku Labs 02/18/2022 4:12 PM
No more having to access host's router at all!
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Is that all? Only one downside is 1% of income.
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This explanation on https://heliumvote.com/ for HIP55 is not the correct one and should linked to light hotspot instead of HIP55. Sync issues, all relayed states, port forwarding or firewall issues, and SD card failures due to excessive load will be eliminated. Hotspot bandwidth consumption will be a fraction of what it is today. This may also reduce the cost of Hotspot hardware, as processing and storage needs will be greatly decreased. HIP55 is a way to light hotspot. I do not think it is good to say incorrect things ...
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🟠 T3chie | Bitoku Labs 02/18/2022 4:12 PM
Much easier to deploy on non-controlled networks
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Sounds amazing
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
i like the meme form of this more.
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HIP55 will solve: - all relayed states, port forwarding and most firewall issues. HIP55 will not solve but light hotspot will: - sync issues and SD card failures due to excessive load will be eliminated. - Hotspot bandwidth consumption will be a fraction of what it is today. - This may also reduce the cost of Hotspot hardware, as processing and storage needs will be greatly decreased.
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that is so bad dude..
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Hotspots are the ones providing the coverage and the service, yet the money decides. It's outrageous that a few validators can decide to take more tasks and rewards from hundreds of thousands of hotspots. This won't fix the network nor it fights spoofing, which is one of the network's biggest problems. Also, today challenges are up to a 10% (0.01 HNT a day) of the rewards of the average hotspot (~0.10 HNT a day) - the 0,9% repeated to death is only the portion of the total HNT that goes to challenges, not what you make in rewards, don't let them fool you!!
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thats right
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The 0.9% is approximately 0.0375 HNT per month per Hotspot, just to put in perspective
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capcom
The 0.9% is approximately 0.0375 HNT per month per Hotspot, just to put in perspective
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 4:52 PM
on a perfectly functioning network, where all miners/etc functioned properly, real world it seems like 1/10th of that. (edited)
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NomadicEngineer 02/18/2022 4:53 PM
Is this moving to a relay data only network
16:53
But according to my napkin math it will be gigs and gigs of data
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JQS
Hotspots are the ones providing the coverage and the service, yet the money decides. It's outrageous that a few validators can decide to take more tasks and rewards from hundreds of thousands of hotspots. This won't fix the network nor it fights spoofing, which is one of the network's biggest problems. Also, today challenges are up to a 10% (0.01 HNT a day) of the rewards of the average hotspot (~0.10 HNT a day) - the 0,9% repeated to death is only the portion of the total HNT that goes to challenges, not what you make in rewards, don't let them fool you!!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 4:57 PM
Challenges are not Beacons...
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I didn't say they are beacons... just check your hotspots and see how much you get from challenges, definitely more than a 0.9% or the ridiculous monthly amounts people are mentioning here
17:02
next is making our hotspots data only, you are warned
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JQS
I didn't say they are beacons... just check your hotspots and see how much you get from challenges, definitely more than a 0.9% or the ridiculous monthly amounts people are mentioning here
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:02 PM
I already did. The math is correct. 0.9% (edited)
17:03
Any extra is from the DC pool of rewards. That stays with hotspots.
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0.9% is not the share of your individual rewards, so you either don't know what you're talking about or are just lying
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Sinbad - HeliumTracker (Reply/@) 02/18/2022 5:04 PM
Just to understand, if this vote fails to pass, does it mean that light hotspots won't be able to happen?
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JQS
0.9% is not the share of your individual rewards, so you either don't know what you're talking about or are just lying
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:05 PM
No, it's the share of the rewards pool for the epoch. 🤨
17:05
It works out to about $11 a year. More than worth it. You lose far more than that due to the p2p issues that this solves.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I already did. The math is correct. 0.9% (edited)
then this reply is bullshit
facepalm 1
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Sinbad - HeliumTracker (Reply/@)
Just to understand, if this vote fails to pass, does it mean that light hotspots won't be able to happen?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:05 PM
Yes
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JQS
I didn't say they are beacons... just check your hotspots and see how much you get from challenges, definitely more than a 0.9% or the ridiculous monthly amounts people are mentioning here
you’re right. it’s actually less than 0.9% for these hotspots
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:07 PM
For context, that graph is over a 3 month period.
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we should have made a site quickly where you could input your hotspot name to see how much you’ve made lifetime from challenge creation
17:10
im sure no one would have believed it anyway
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capcom
we should have made a site quickly where you could input your hotspot name to see how much you’ve made lifetime from challenge creation
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:12 PM
I mean, there's hotspotty 😉 (edited)
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In the old days it was 35% for creating challenges
17:13
Imagine that outcry
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capcom
Imagine that outcry
It would have been quiet, there were only 10 hotspots at the time? (kidding)
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17:21
For all the people talking about this being unfair to have this be an HNT-weighted vote: Using the one-person one-vote method. the vote by person is still 699 For / 1,169 Against. That's right there on the helium vote website, but hasn't come up yet when talking about fair or unfair. Update: 699 Against / 1,169 For. (edited)
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krby
For all the people talking about this being unfair to have this be an HNT-weighted vote: Using the one-person one-vote method. the vote by person is still 699 For / 1,169 Against. That's right there on the helium vote website, but hasn't come up yet when talking about fair or unfair. Update: 699 Against / 1,169 For. (edited)
i think you got that backwards
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cokes
i think you got that backwards
fixed. thanks! (edited)
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krby
For all the people talking about this being unfair to have this be an HNT-weighted vote: Using the one-person one-vote method. the vote by person is still 699 For / 1,169 Against. That's right there on the helium vote website, but hasn't come up yet when talking about fair or unfair. Update: 699 Against / 1,169 For. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:22 PM
By the vote count, it wouldn't be passing right now. That's only 63% yes 😅
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Pirate_ProfTK 02/18/2022 5:23 PM
I can't believe people are fuzzing over 0.9%, when this could basically reduce the down time a hotspot may have due to resync times(which probably end up cuasing more loss of HNT due to inactivity during the time to sync than the 0.9%). (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
By the vote count, it wouldn't be passing right now. That's only 63% yes 😅
Agree, but it isn't a landslide. It's not a "90% of the people say no but 90% of the tokens say yes". Maybe it will be. Maybe this is the thing that passes that gets to a different voting mechanism because of the outrage. Or...maybe people only like to yell and not actually work to fix it. (edited)
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Pirate_ProfTK
I can't believe people are fuzzing over 0.9%, when this could basically reduce the down time a hotspot may have due to resync times(which probably end up cuasing more loss of HNT due to inactivity during the time to sync than the 0.9%). (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:24 PM
Umm... have you met people? 😉 lol
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Pirate_ProfTK
I can't believe people are fuzzing over 0.9%, when this could basically reduce the down time a hotspot may have due to resync times(which probably end up cuasing more loss of HNT due to inactivity during the time to sync than the 0.9%). (edited)
Noooop, people angry becouse regular hotspots, payed 500-600-1000-2000$ throw now in same bag with light hotspots 150$ worth..
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Umm... have you met people? 😉 lol
Pirate_ProfTK 02/18/2022 5:25 PM
Unfortunately, I got some DMs. I had to explain how they will end up benifiting more in the long run.
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Pirate_ProfTK
Unfortunately, I got some DMs. I had to explain how they will end up benifiting more in the long run.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:25 PM
Same 🙂
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stanic5ar
Noooop, people angry becouse regular hotspots, payed 500-600-1000-2000$ throw now in same bag with light hotspots 150$ worth..
Pirate_ProfTK 02/18/2022 5:26 PM
Those light hotspots are not available yet and you have made more in returns from the more expensive hotspots than the people who will buy light hot spots in the future.
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17:29
I think as early adapters that's a prices we put in. We definitely got rewarded for it. The field is even still and light hotspots, will allow more people to participate. I think people's network is working towards the proper people's aspect.
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krby
For all the people talking about this being unfair to have this be an HNT-weighted vote: Using the one-person one-vote method. the vote by person is still 699 For / 1,169 Against. That's right there on the helium vote website, but hasn't come up yet when talking about fair or unfair. Update: 699 Against / 1,169 For. (edited)
people holding 10 HNT don't even bother voting and wasting the HNT fee after seeing the live results, so the number of current votes does not represent what would happen In a 1 hotspot = 1 vote system
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JQS
people holding 10 HNT don't even bother voting and wasting the HNT fee after seeing the live results, so the number of current votes does not represent what would happen In a 1 hotspot = 1 vote system
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:34 PM
I will agree that showing the results of voting while the vote is in progress should never happen, but that is unavoidable since the voting is on chain, which is open to anyone.
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JQS
people holding 10 HNT don't even bother voting and wasting the HNT fee after seeing the live results, so the number of current votes does not represent what would happen In a 1 hotspot = 1 vote system
Yup, existing vote totally affect voting. Someone should write a HIP for a different voting mechanism, or argue for #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 if they like that one.
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Seb
HIP55 will solve: - all relayed states, port forwarding and most firewall issues. HIP55 will not solve but light hotspot will: - sync issues and SD card failures due to excessive load will be eliminated. - Hotspot bandwidth consumption will be a fraction of what it is today. - This may also reduce the cost of Hotspot hardware, as processing and storage needs will be greatly decreased.
CFHeadphase 02/18/2022 5:37 PM
Port forwarding is only used for challenging?
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JQS
people holding 10 HNT don't even bother voting and wasting the HNT fee after seeing the live results, so the number of current votes does not represent what would happen In a 1 hotspot = 1 vote system
CFHeadphase 02/18/2022 5:37 PM
The fee is like 0.000001hnt lol
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CFHeadphase
Port forwarding is only used for challenging?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:40 PM
Well, kind of. It's needed to receive a challenge. Also as a Challenger, you need to be able to receive the witness receipts.
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do people get this chart? hotspots currently get rewards from the first 3 buckets only (26%), as data transfer rewards are still negligible. Challenges are a 3,46% (not a 0.9%) of this 26%. Great hotspots and cheaters get a big chunk of the 20.08% for witnesses, while average hotspots depend a lot on sending beacons and challenging others
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OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 5:42 PM
I guess some people are still waiting for the hotspots delivered in weeks or months. Suddenly new light hotspots come into light. So people will be in dilemma; should wait for the expensive miner or for the cheaper lighter one, as rewards decrease drastically already? (edited)
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JQS
do people get this chart? hotspots currently get rewards from the first 3 buckets only (26%), as data transfer rewards are still negligible. Challenges are a 3,46% (not a 0.9%) of this 26%. Great hotspots and cheaters get a big chunk of the 20.08% for witnesses, while average hotspots depend a lot on sending beacons and challenging others
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 5:46 PM
Your math is not right. The unused network DC pool still goes to the hotpots.
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It will be months and months before any cheap light hotspots come to market
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OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 5:48 PM
I think this should be made clear to people, otherwise it will definitely make some of them unhappy.
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No one is unhappy around here
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CFHeadphase
The fee is like 0.000001hnt lol
that's the transfer, you also pay a fee per each transaction (~0.014 HNT), which explains the low volume of votes (under 2k) in a network with almost 600k hotspots
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OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 5:51 PM
the qa of today’s ama sounds it is ready to go, which makes me happy 🥳 (edited)
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I dream of the day that hotspots are no longer on the p2p network
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JQS
that's the transfer, you also pay a fee per each transaction (~0.014 HNT), which explains the low volume of votes (under 2k) in a network with almost 600k hotspots
30.00USD *0.014 HNT is 0.42USD. If people actually cared about the losing the 0.9% of the reward pool, does this really stop them from voting?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your math is not right. The unused network DC pool still goes to the hotpots.
better than your no-math, how much do you get from unused network DC? 🤏
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capcom
I dream of the day that hotspots are no longer on the p2p network
Hehe, I have a host that I had unplug the hotspot. Her internet connection is small enough up and downstream combined with some resyncing issues on the RAK that it was affecting wifi calling on a mobile phone, Zoom with friends, and Netflix streaming. I assumed she'd be ok, but it's really crappy ISP service (and the highest she can get for now). It was earning OK when it was up and running. Can't wait to be able to put one back at that spot.
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krby
30.00USD *0.014 HNT is 0.42USD. If people actually cared about the losing the 0.9% of the reward pool, does this really stop them from voting?
we can do this all day: people don't vote because they have no chance as they weigh as much as their HNT, and they don't even submit it for the vote count to avoid the fee and because people are not honest on the 0.9%
Troll 1
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krby
Hehe, I have a host that I had unplug the hotspot. Her internet connection is small enough up and downstream combined with some resyncing issues on the RAK that it was affecting wifi calling on a mobile phone, Zoom with friends, and Netflix streaming. I assumed she'd be ok, but it's really crappy ISP service (and the highest she can get for now). It was earning OK when it was up and running. Can't wait to be able to put one back at that spot.
you should not be rewarded for providing a shitty network connection
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JQS
we can do this all day: people don't vote because they have no chance as they weigh as much as their HNT, and they don't even submit it for the vote count to avoid the fee and because people are not honest on the 0.9%
Ya, I don't how to disprove this. We're both guessing and assuming about what people will or won't do. I have have trouble believing that spending $0.42 is a burden on someone who is actually upset (vs just arguing on discord) about this and wants to make a point like "the votes were 90% AGAINST but the HNT was 90% for" (or some similar amount). How can we judge except by what people actually do vs what they say?
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JQS
you should not be rewarded for providing a shitty network connection
IMO it's not-shitty enough to pass data packets. Which is the actual point of the network. I fully understood the p2p network and block syncing may suck at this location, I hoped it wouldn't but it didn't. That's on me, I tried and it failed. (edited)
18:03
But, if the hotspot doesn't need to sync blocks and can still provide coverage, I've got a new location with coverage.
18:04
The "shity" connection is 10Mbps/1Mbps. It's reliably "up" as far as I can tell, but it is oversubscribed residential ISP grade.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:10 PM
Won’t this HIP make it easier to spoof? You don’t need to port forward anymore so you can just put 10 hotspots in one place without the hassle of paying for a vpn isp services that let you port forward the same for for multiple IP’s and just put attenuators on em (edited)
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krby
Ya, I don't how to disprove this. We're both guessing and assuming about what people will or won't do. I have have trouble believing that spending $0.42 is a burden on someone who is actually upset (vs just arguing on discord) about this and wants to make a point like "the votes were 90% AGAINST but the HNT was 90% for" (or some similar amount). How can we judge except by what people actually do vs what they say?
I actually wasted the fee as I hold my HNT, but I understand someone contributing 10 HNT would decide to save 0.42 USD. Voters for HIP55 hold on average 1800 HNT, those against, 224 HNT. Greedy validators trying to get it all.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:12 PM
Have you maybe thought about the fact that maybe validators also want a stable network?
18:12
I take this back (edited)
18:12
The amount of earnings for challenges is so fractional it’ll be like almost nothing to them
18:14
The validators already earn enough HNT from the APY on the stake
18:14
Wouldn’t you think that they want a stable network that grows so in the future their hnt is worth more?
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we don't need this to have a stable network, validators have been the bottleneck in all most recent network crashes, and will continue to be as the network grows
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 02/18/2022 6:15 PM
I remember when only challenging gave like 4 HNT a month lol
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I feel like voting power should be based on wallet hotspot count, and not HNT, as there are those that are starting in remote locations that don't get a fair vote, and those that just buy in with money but are not really contributing to the network by providing coverage.
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JQS
we don't need this to have a stable network, validators have been the bottleneck in all most recent network crashes, and will continue to be as the network grows
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:16 PM
This is definitely a step to a more stable network, 40% of challenges currently fail from hotspots that aren’t configured or are incorrectly configured
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von
I feel like voting power should be based on wallet hotspot count, and not HNT, as there are those that are starting in remote locations that don't get a fair vote, and those that just buy in with money but are not really contributing to the network by providing coverage.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:16 PM
But them hosting companies like emrit have the advantage
18:16
There is really no good voting system that can be implemented
18:17
There is a whale for everything
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 02/18/2022 6:17 PM
Ppl really crying about this?
18:17
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von
I feel like voting power should be based on wallet hotspot count, and not HNT, as there are those that are starting in remote locations that don't get a fair vote, and those that just buy in with money but are not really contributing to the network by providing coverage.
hotspot count is a pretty good proxy for having a bunch of money and buying into Helium early (when hotspots were easier to get)
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then punish those hotspots and fight abuse, most new HIP are useless and not solve any real problems (e.g. redenomination)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:18 PM
This HIP is also a step for Light Hotspots
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
There is really no good voting system that can be implemented
OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 6:18 PM
Maybe more balanced weighted, not just purely weighted on hnt. Don’t ask me how 😅
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
There is really no good voting system that can be implemented
It's not good or bad, it's all about tradeoffs. I don't love the voting-by-HNT system either, but I haven't worked to think about a better one.
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there is alot more "investment" in actually having a working hotspot deployed, where as say jumping on an exchange, buying $100k of HNT and transferring it to vote. (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 02/18/2022 6:19 PM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
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krby
It's not good or bad, it's all about tradeoffs. I don't love the voting-by-HNT system either, but I haven't worked to think about a better one.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:19 PM
Yes I agree, everything has its pros and cons
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%)
Ppl really crying about this?
would you agree to lose that amount with every vote?
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JQS
would you agree to lose that amount with every vote?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:20 PM
Well, thinking about how I earn 8 hnt per month from one of my spots, and we might have one or two votes per month, yes lol (edited)
18:21
Especially since this HIP will increase reward consistency
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then you will end up having a data only hotspot making 1000000 DC a month
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:21 PM
How so
18:22
We are losing challenges, not PoC
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that could be next, why not? the only important thing is providing the data transfer service, right?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:23 PM
We are already on our way to that
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another option might be wallet witnessed count voting power... That's true proof of network coverage investment there.. but that might make the whales sad.
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 02/18/2022 6:24 PM
You know that that's on the roadmap right?
18:24
I don't even know why this is a HIP
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18:24
Yes. Km okay loosing my shitty challenger rewards
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von
another option might be wallet witnessed count voting power... That's true proof of network coverage investment there.. but that might make the whales sad.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:24 PM
I think the problem with this, is that we won’t have PoC forever lol
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who cares about POC if you transfer data for devices in your city almost for free 👌
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 02/18/2022 6:25 PM
Less challenges failing = more beacons = more witnessing
18:25
If you have a shitty deployment it's still going to remain a shitty deployment
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JQS
who cares about POC if you transfer data for devices in your city almost for free 👌
You’re not really adding much value here
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:25 PM
Cappy!
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 02/18/2022 6:26 PM
The only reason why you'd be making a significant amount of your earnings from Challenging is if you're a lone wolf. Or you've got a dog shit setup
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people not caring is what doesn't add value
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Well first you made up random %s, and now you’re in hyperbole land
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%)
The only reason why you'd be making a significant amount of your earnings from Challenging is if you're a lone wolf. Or you've got a dog shit setup
why would you set a hotspot in a new area if you get no rewards?
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JQS
why would you set a hotspot in a new area if you get no rewards?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:28 PM
Because it brings more in
18:28
Set up first, wait for the rest to come, or just set up in a good area lol (edited)
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capcom
Well first you made up random %s, and now you’re in hyperbole land
make your own calculations
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Are you really setting up in a new area to earn 0.0375 HNT per month right now?
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von
another option might be wallet witnessed count voting power... That's true proof of network coverage investment there.. but that might make the whales sad.
OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 6:29 PM
then the gamer has more votes.
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OptimusPrime
then the gamer has more votes.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/18/2022 6:29 PM
Blacklist moment
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JQS
why would you set a hotspot in a new area if you get no rewards?
i've done this to bet on the future. I think it's a good spot where data transfer will be strong enough eventually, and a few other hotspots in the medium term. It's totally a bet though, not super well researched, just a hunch. (edited)
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capcom
Are you really setting up in a new area to earn 0.0375 HNT per month right now?
that's not correct, and getting as boring as the 0.9% argument
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18:30
enjoy this HIP, goodnight
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I'm guessing JQS doesn't know who capcom is?
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aren't we all the same in "the people's network"? 🤔
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I think one of the key issues that was discussed in this HIP was the non scalability of the current implementation of the challenge beacon. The way I read it is that after this hip is implemented that it should be much more stable and the potential for a lost challenge / poc / witness reward should be lower because of all the issues faced with various networking setups, port forwarding issues, spotty internet connections, and lower spec hardware.. (edited)
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Yes. Hard to quantify exactly what this means for earnings, but we know 40-50% challenges fail due to networking or other issues today
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JQS
aren't we all the same in "the people's network"? 🤔
OptimusPrime 02/18/2022 6:36 PM
i am; know there is no perfect solution and just find the best among the worst 😬 not saying this HIP is bad, I like it actually. (edited)
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I think it would be good for validators to run challenges but not to take the extra .9% as that .9% is more like 3.4% of the hotspots current rewards potential. I would say pull it from that fat sack of security tokens to give it to validators or make them do it for free.
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but they will need higher memory and cpu resources potentially.. that costs $
18:40
it will also have a bandwidth impact on them for sure
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We have more validotars than needed. Weed out the ones who dont want to upgrade. We are approaching a pivot point where smart people will not be deploying any more hotspots and we will be stucknwith every city having 1000 to many hotspots while earning potentials is next to nothing and is over 3 years. You want to push the network, stop taking away earnings from hotspots.
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Q. Is there a HIP to encourage/remote remote / rural setups in remote areas and drive hotspot setups away from the cities?
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Yes reward scaling but the issue is that people dont just place hotspots on land they dont own. They can place them wherever and are not buying land. Yes some find hosts but even then if you tell a host you dont know run this and ill only be able to give you $10/month , and itll cost you an extra $80/year to figure out your taxes then wont do it.
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capcom
Are you really setting up in a new area to earn 0.0375 HNT per month right now?
trueeee
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capcom
Yes. Hard to quantify exactly what this means for earnings, but we know 40-50% challenges fail due to networking or other issues today
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 7:08 PM
long term it is stability. earnings/mining/investing all gambles 😉
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I mean it seems obviously a good thing to me, but I know everyone wants to know how it affects their own earnings
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half the strength 02/18/2022 7:44 PM
according to hotspotty 2 of my miners will lose way more than .9%. 1 miner is 5.89% and the other is 9.47% (edited)
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half the strength
according to hotspotty 2 of my miners will lose way more than .9%. 1 miner is 5.89% and the other is 9.47% (edited)
Pirate_ProfTK 02/18/2022 7:45 PM
You might need to optimize the location or antenna placement. If you see more than 0.9% contribution from challenges that means you are missing out on witnessing and beaconing
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half the strength
according to hotspotty 2 of my miners will lose way more than .9%. 1 miner is 5.89% and the other is 9.47% (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/18/2022 7:47 PM
That number is the % of your total rewards, not the % of rewards from the pool per epoch for that action. Also, there are additional rewards in there from the unused DC rewards pool in there. (edited)
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19:48
If say you were a lone wolf, that number could be 100% of your total rewards. 🙂 (edited)
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Can’t wait for this hip to be implemented
20:45
Half my lora signals fail to report to the network
20:45
Due to p2p issues
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half the strength 02/18/2022 9:07 PM
1% is a bunch to the validators, you know the guys on top
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half the strength
1% is a bunch to the validators, you know the guys on top
It’s not actually that much , it’s an extra 6.5 a month for a single validator , which that is a commitment of 10k HNT
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half the strength
1% is a bunch to the validators, you know the guys on top
I’d give the validators that 1% for a network that runs more efficiently 🤷🏻‍♂️but I guess people would rather not implement this and have it go down every few weeks
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
% hotspots earn RED grows, % Validators earn fixed 6%/6.9 after hip55 FIXED.
GoldMiner [CA] 02/18/2022 9:43 PM
You seem pretty confident that there will be enough data to keep everyone happy. I’m not so bullish on that. I foresee a LOT of people unplugging hotspots once POC goes near zero.
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GoldMiner [CA]
You seem pretty confident that there will be enough data to keep everyone happy. I’m not so bullish on that. I foresee a LOT of people unplugging hotspots once POC goes near zero.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:45 PM
yeah im looking at a 350+ billion dollar iot industry expected to double in the next 5 10 years or less (edited)
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21:46
21:46
*more than double in 10 years. sorry
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
yeah im looking at a 350+ billion dollar iot industry expected to double in the next 5 10 years or less (edited)
GoldMiner [CA] 02/18/2022 9:50 PM
Doesn’t mean the data is going through MY hotspot though. And IoT covers a lot more than Helium.
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GoldMiner [CA]
Doesn’t mean the data is going through MY hotspot though. And IoT covers a lot more than Helium.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/18/2022 9:51 PM
true, all my deployments are in a county and cities with a smart city road map, that includes water, air, traffic and other iot sensors
21:52
so i am deployed at/near main intersections and business hubs, high in the air, with clear line of sight to our intercoastal and beach areas for transfering traffic sensor, store foot traffic, air sensor and water sensor data,, plus whatever else ends up on the network (edited)
23:58
I want to know if Hip 55 become real by moving challenging to Validators, does it means in my area without any validator my hotspots will die ?
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HNT.solutions 02/19/2022 12:30 AM
2nd time in 2 days trying to vote & it doesn't work! 🤔 (edited)
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GoldMiner [CA]
Doesn’t mean the data is going through MY hotspot though. And IoT covers a lot more than Helium.
Tbh, if there is no data going through your hotspot long term, we don't really need your hotspot. I realise some people won't like that but it is true.
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Wangzi
I want to know if Hip 55 become real by moving challenging to Validators, does it means in my area without any validator my hotspots will die ?
No die. The validators will challenge you and hotspots in your area
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AlexC
Tbh, if there is no data going through your hotspot long term, we don't really need your hotspot. I realise some people won't like that but it is true.
All those offgrid ones in the middle of nowhere are not needed now.
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waveform
No die. The validators will challenge you and hotspots in your area
so it means I can have more challenges then I have now or less or nothing will change?
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Wangzi
so it means I can have more challenges then I have now or less or nothing will change?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 1:46 AM
Less will fail, it'll feel like more
mrburns 1
01:46
Quite a lot of poc silently fails right now
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if this gets approved, how long will it take till it is implemented?
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capcom
you’re right. it’s actually less than 0.9% for these hotspots
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 1:57 AM
Nice framing to pick on that is actually lower, there are plenty with a higher percentage (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Nice framing to pick on that is actually lower, there are plenty with a higher percentage (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 2:09 AM
That's 0.04 more ...
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
That's 0.04 more ...
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:12 AM
Its about the percentage, he posts one to 'show' its actually less then 0.9%, this shows 2.86% for the specific hotspot. And i can start the argument how valid that data is. Looking at a other hotspot that im quite sure has challenged is showing 0 data for it in hotspotty. So all a big farce imo to show
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Its about the percentage, he posts one to 'show' its actually less then 0.9%, this shows 2.86% for the specific hotspot. And i can start the argument how valid that data is. Looking at a other hotspot that im quite sure has challenged is showing 0 data for it in hotspotty. So all a big farce imo to show
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:14 AM
That number is the % of your total rewards, not the % of rewards from the pool per epoch for that action. Also, there are additional rewards in there from the unused DC rewards pool in there.
👎 1
02:14
If say you were a lone wolf, that number could be 100% of your total rewards. 🙂 (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Its about the percentage, he posts one to 'show' its actually less then 0.9%, this shows 2.86% for the specific hotspot. And i can start the argument how valid that data is. Looking at a other hotspot that im quite sure has challenged is showing 0 data for it in hotspotty. So all a big farce imo to show
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 2:15 AM
There will be hotspots that earn (almost) 100% on challenging (isolated hotspots). However, the blockchain really distributes 0,9% of the total HNT minted to challengers: https://docs.helium.com/blockchain/mining/ (edited)
While there's no exact formula for calculating how much HNT you'll earn
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If say you were a lone wolf, that number could be 100% of your total rewards. 🙂 (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:15 AM
So you exactly state why capcom posting that picture doesnt make any sense, funny to give a thumbs down you clown
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NL_Miniterror_NL
So you exactly state why capcom posting that picture doesnt make any sense, funny to give a thumbs down you clown
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:16 AM
I didn't say capcom's post was any more correct than yours.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
So you exactly state why capcom posting that picture doesnt make any sense, funny to give a thumbs down you clown
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:17 AM
Please be respectful of other members here
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Tim | LongAP
There will be hotspots that earn (almost) 100% on challenging (isolated hotspots). However, the blockchain really distributes 0,9% of the total HNT minted to challengers: https://docs.helium.com/blockchain/mining/ (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:18 AM
I believe global is 0.9% but that wont mean everybody will be hit like that. There should be taken into acount how to look after the people who get hit harder and might even go to 0 earnings as they are lone wolfs. Why would they keep them online in such a situation?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Please be respectful of other members here
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:19 AM
Respect goes 2 ways, downvoting ones post could be seen as disrespectfull too, or giving it a clown emoji
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I believe global is 0.9% but that wont mean everybody will be hit like that. There should be taken into acount how to look after the people who get hit harder and might even go to 0 earnings as they are lone wolfs. Why would they keep them online in such a situation?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:19 AM
The network cares about the network, not the individual.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Respect goes 2 ways, downvoting ones post could be seen as disrespectfull too, or giving it a clown emoji
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:19 AM
Sure does, you're right, please be respectful of members
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Respect goes 2 ways, downvoting ones post could be seen as disrespectfull too, or giving it a clown emoji
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:19 AM
Disagreeing has nothing to do with respect.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Disagreeing has nothing to do with respect.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:20 AM
Dude, please stop talking to me
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Sure does, you're right, please be respectful of members
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:20 AM
Then warn others too when they do such things
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:20 AM
I do
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:20 AM
Being measured in 2 ways
02:20
You arent warning him for doing those things
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Dude, please stop talking to me
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:21 AM
Not going to stop pointing out incorrect info that misleads others.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I believe global is 0.9% but that wont mean everybody will be hit like that. There should be taken into acount how to look after the people who get hit harder and might even go to 0 earnings as they are lone wolfs. Why would they keep them online in such a situation?
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 2:21 AM
Oh yes, hotspots that can’t be validated by PoC can loose more than 0,9%. Helium (with PoC) was never designed to support lone wolfs. Some people did it anyway, maybe to boost coverage like with TTN, big respect but sadly no guarantee for compensation.
👆 3
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NL_Miniterror_NL
You arent warning him for doing those things
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:22 AM
I disagreed with your incorrect statement. Nothing wrong with that.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:22 AM
Let's move in EY?
02:22
Talk hip55 :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not going to stop pointing out incorrect info that misleads others.
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:23 AM
Then the devs shouldnt post incorrect data either and throw some wood on the fire. My post is to counter a dev that on a specific basis shows the percentage, but that cant be taken as a proper measurepoint as every individual has a different outcome there.
02:23
But hey, that seems to be the general consensus here anyway
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Then the devs shouldnt post incorrect data either and throw some wood on the fire. My post is to counter a dev that on a specific basis shows the percentage, but that cant be taken as a proper measurepoint as every individual has a different outcome there.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:25 AM
The ceo is his own person, and frankly I'm not really up for correcting him too often. ;) (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Then the devs shouldnt post incorrect data either and throw some wood on the fire. My post is to counter a dev that on a specific basis shows the percentage, but that cant be taken as a proper measurepoint as every individual has a different outcome there.
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 2:25 AM
@capcom was 100% correct, due to blockchain issues/challenges the total reward share for challengers is not 0,9% but less. Still doesn’t mean that a individual hotspot cannot earn more on challenging. (edited)
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Tim | LongAP
@capcom was 100% correct, due to blockchain issues/challenges the total reward share for challengers is not 0,9% but less. Still doesn’t mean that a individual hotspot cannot earn more on challenging. (edited)
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:28 AM
I really wonder how that will fit out and if the measuring tools are actually measuring correct. Looking at hotspotty one of my miners shows the posted picture, looking at a different miner it shows 0 while im 100% sure it has done challenges and earned hnt from that. Total earnings of that hotspot is lower so i expect the percentage for that individual spot to be even higher
02:29
And as you are dutch, it placed in Rijswijk at 6th floor of a flat, definetly not a lone wolf
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 2:29 AM
So what’s the hotspot name that challenged and did not earn?
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:30 AM
It did earn but hotspotty showing 0% earnings there
02:30
Hence i question how accurate it is
02:31
And showing that isnt a proper way for a dev to make his statwment
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 2:33 AM
I’m not sure how accurate hotspotty is, but I think @capcom used the ETL, but I can’t verify it now because it’s down
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:33 AM
Im thinking at current network state the percentage is higher then the 0.9%, hence people are talking about it. If a 100% healthy network then it should be that number
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NL_Miniterror_NL
I really wonder how that will fit out and if the measuring tools are actually measuring correct. Looking at hotspotty one of my miners shows the posted picture, looking at a different miner it shows 0 while im 100% sure it has done challenges and earned hnt from that. Total earnings of that hotspot is lower so i expect the percentage for that individual spot to be even higher
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:34 AM
The hotspotty data may be a bit off right now. They've been doing a lot of server additions and upgrades (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:35 AM
The api reward endpoint can show this
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Im thinking at current network state the percentage is higher then the 0.9%, hence people are talking about it. If a 100% healthy network then it should be that number
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/19/2022 2:36 AM
The 0.9% is baked into the poc system. 🤷‍♂️ (edited)
02:36
The roles part
02:36
You can filter by type
02:36
And date
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:37 AM
Like i said, i get it should be that 0.9% but in current network state i dont think its actually that percentage
🤔 1
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Like i said, i get it should be that 0.9% but in current network state i dont think its actually that percentage
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:37 AM
It it were not 0.9 , it would be lower?
02:37
Issues would make it lower at least
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:39 AM
I think its higher at the moment, i think quite some poc is failing due to p2p hence the percentage of challenges is higher
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:40 AM
Why would poc failing change emissions targets per epoch ? Maybe I'm missing something (edited)
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:40 AM
I have seen challenges go out, the spot beacons and only gets one witness, but i get the full reward for challeging for that
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:41 AM
Yeah? That's a sucesfull challenge
02:41
Imagine this, say 1000 PoC challenger events were sent
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:41 AM
And the hotspotty missing data for 1 out of 2 spots i looked at wokt make the stats there a valid point either imo
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 2:41 AM
They'd get 0.9
02:42
Say the next epoch
02:42
100 were sent
02:42
They'd still get 0.9
02:42
The % of your earnings will differ, based on your activity right
👆 1
02:42
For example I have hotspots in London earning next to nothing
02:43
Earnings for that hotspot for challenger is a bigger % because the PoC rewards are so low
02:43
But it's still only 0.9% of rewards per epoch globally
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 2:54 AM
Im gonna let it go, think im getting lost in my translations
02:55
Or im not wording myself properly to get it out in a understandable manner
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/19/2022 3:01 AM
Thats what i think too😅
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:03 AM
The network will grow regardless if this hip passes or not. The difference is that one will reduce the overall rewards far more then the other.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:04 AM
Because more hotspots earn? Yes. But not because we give up Challenges to Validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But it's still only 0.9% of rewards per epoch globally
I have a better example regarding 0.9%: You have a grandfather aged 70, a child aged 5 and a man aged 30. The average age is 35, but only one can have sex 🤣
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Where has this drastic reduction thing come from?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:08 AM
No, i was referring to the fact that the network grows, nothing will stop that
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coming here to learn why "helium is over" this week
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:08 AM
In general we will see more reliableand evenly distributed earnings because we have a lot more valid PoC request compared to now: (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:09 AM
I mean the main goal is to have near to world wide coverage of Helium
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03:10
Think in like a ISP trying to cover 5g
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:11 AM
Don't forget that the scarcity of helium also raises a certain value of the token. Which should offset the reduction in rewards. But this is getting to off-topic
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 3:14 AM
Ah sorry, i misread your question. Yes thats the amount we should be putting out each day. RN due to network problems it's less than that *Also this will change after the next halving (edited)
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The wrong story is that someone wants to hire me if I buy an excavator and I buy an excavator and come to work and see someone else working with a shovel and we will both be paid the same at the end of the day
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If you are going to count wealth while voting you should also count the investment hotspot owner put in this.
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ismail28
If you are going to count wealth while voting you should also count the investment hotspot owner put in this.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 4:08 AM
This HIP is about moving challenges to Validators. If you want to discuss voting or governance, please refer to #hip-51-helium-dao or #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
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How will the alpha miner run with this new update? Will we have to recompile packet forwarder?
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chad greenway 02/19/2022 4:40 AM
so ive only just recently joined the hellium mining network. whats the pros vs cons of this vote for hip 54-55? in lamens terms
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chad greenway
so ive only just recently joined the hellium mining network. whats the pros vs cons of this vote for hip 54-55? in lamens terms
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/19/2022 4:44 AM
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Kev1234567890 02/19/2022 4:47 AM
What i have not seen discussed in all this was the "temporary" reduction to 14 witnesses and reduced beaconing that was said to be completed "temporarily" to help the network until a couple future HIPS can be implemented to reduce the block chain storage on devices. If I am to get behind this HIP as it should alleviate many issues, please by all means, include in the HIP that the temporary changes made in January will be lifted and get us back to a greater number of witnessing and beaconing again. Without mention of those temporary reductions all I see is a reduction followed by yet another reduction to the majority of people in the people's network! (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Do we have to get light hotspots for those yes issues or this applies to our current hotspots as well?
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Applies to current hotspots
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Smiley-HeliumKosova 02/19/2022 4:59 AM
@Kev1234567890 I agree with what you are saying, if they lift what has been done last months then yeah I'm okey with it but I'm not okey owning 90 + miners were I have alot of cost, placement, internet, static ip for each spot , we have expensis to cover, they way things are going in a few months, looks like I need to finance helium, and not helium me , rewards are down drastically over 70 %
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This hip might give 39 a run for its money
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Nice idea. But then all the Validators will be kinda spof for managing load, also grpc is not panacea too, and it may give some surprises upon big load. We shall see.
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being
Nice idea. But then all the Validators will be kinda spof for managing load, also grpc is not panacea too, and it may give some surprises upon big load. We shall see.
If you describe an entire class of devices as a single point of failure, then sure they are a spof. They are a spof now, since if they decide not to make any blocks, network halts. This HIP does not change that.
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sccrskills
Do we have to get light hotspots for those yes issues or this applies to our current hotspots as well?
Your hotspot will turn into a light hotspot
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waveform
Your hotspot will turn into a light hotspot
Maybe we should start saying evolve to make it clear that light hotspots are better than full hotspots. (edited)
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groot
Maybe we should start saying evolve to make it clear that light hotspots are better than full hotspots. (edited)
Agreed, light hotspots with no relaying and port forwarding will be amazing
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groot
Maybe we should start saying evolve to make it clear that light hotspots are better than full hotspots. (edited)
But they are not "better", which is why I would avoid using the term. There will be a less complicated device, and and update to turn existing complicated devices into less complicated ones. So they all perform the same.
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waveform
But they are not "better", which is why I would avoid using the term. There will be a less complicated device, and and update to turn existing complicated devices into less complicated ones. So they all perform the same.
In terms of functionality they are exactly the same, I know. But 'light' usually means something is taken away, and unfortunately people think it's rewards...
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
In general we will see more reliableand evenly distributed earnings because we have a lot more valid PoC request compared to now: (edited)
There cant be "more" really as at least 0.9% of total is no longer available, I'd say that rewards will be more reliably and evenly distrubuted so less randomness in earnings (less downtime) and more hotspots trending towards the average earnings - more predictable.
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Conversation about this change has been happening for almost year. This should have been risk managed by hotspot owners a long time ago. (edited)
05:45
Welcome to the world of taking risk.
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Kev1234567890
What i have not seen discussed in all this was the "temporary" reduction to 14 witnesses and reduced beaconing that was said to be completed "temporarily" to help the network until a couple future HIPS can be implemented to reduce the block chain storage on devices. If I am to get behind this HIP as it should alleviate many issues, please by all means, include in the HIP that the temporary changes made in January will be lifted and get us back to a greater number of witnessing and beaconing again. Without mention of those temporary reductions all I see is a reduction followed by yet another reduction to the majority of people in the people's network! (edited)
Do you know which HIPs needed to be implemented?
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TruffleFry
Do you know which HIPs needed to be implemented?
Kev1234567890 02/19/2022 6:04 AM
Not sure i fully understand your question but from the network managers they temporarily reduced witnessing and beaconing to reduce the strain on the network due to the chain being larger than the hotspots could handle. I would imagine by this HIP and resting the chain with the validators to where they create the challenges and hotspots going light with no need to sync to the chain this hip should be what solves the steps they temporarily took to ease network issues. Just my take, anyone that sees it differently please jump in and explain! (edited)
06:26
Someone needs to adjust the percentages, it's misleading, 1282 yes votes of total 2045 is not 93%.
06:26
It's more like 62%
06:27
No votes (768) is more like 37%
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:28 AM
the vote is based on hnt holdings of the wallet
06:28
not per vote
06:28
see 2mill hnt vs 158k
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Kev1234567890
Not sure i fully understand your question but from the network managers they temporarily reduced witnessing and beaconing to reduce the strain on the network due to the chain being larger than the hotspots could handle. I would imagine by this HIP and resting the chain with the validators to where they create the challenges and hotspots going light with no need to sync to the chain this hip should be what solves the steps they temporarily took to ease network issues. Just my take, anyone that sees it differently please jump in and explain! (edited)
“to help the network until a couple future HIPS can be implemented to reduce the block chain storage on devices.” I was curious as to what those future HIPs were.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the vote is based on hnt holdings of the wallet
That makes more sense, but can you elaborate? Which wallet, whose wallet, the voting wallet? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:31 AM
when you vote, it uses the hnt thats in the wallet
06:31
as the voting metric
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TruffleFry
“to help the network until a couple future HIPS can be implemented to reduce the block chain storage on devices.” I was curious as to what those future HIPs were.
Kev1234567890 02/19/2022 6:32 AM
Thought 55 is one that should help with it. I try to keep up and read the HIPs and watch the AMA videos. From what I gather 55 should help with those issues they identified and instituted those temporary fixes in Jan
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
when you vote, it uses the hnt thats in the wallet
So if I understand correctly, the percentage it is reflecting is directly correlated with the wealth of the voter's wallet, is that correct?
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macbannai
So if I understand correctly, the percentage it is reflecting is directly correlated with the wealth of the voter's wallet, is that correct?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:34 AM
yes
06:34
its not perfect
06:34
lots of ideas how to do it better
06:34
but its better than the previous, thumbs up/down emoji in discord
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06:34
lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
yes
That's even worse then originally thought, but I'm sure it applies to all HIP votes not just 55.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:35 AM
well
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to bad if you are staking your hnt
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:35 AM
the heliumvote thing
06:35
can use any metric the author/vote creator sees fit to use
06:36
but so far its only been wallet HNT holdings/stakes balanced
06:36
for example a vote could be raised and use hotspots on account as a metric
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Yeah we need some attention there because it's very misleading. Feels like Washington DC wagging the dog.
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Kev1234567890
Thought 55 is one that should help with it. I try to keep up and read the HIPs and watch the AMA videos. From what I gather 55 should help with those issues they identified and instituted those temporary fixes in Jan
Gotcha. I didn’t know if they listed the HIPs that needed to be implemented before they rolled back the temporary witness and beaconing changes. If not, then those “temporary” changes could stay in place for good.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
but so far its only been wallet HNT holdings/stakes balanced
So thinking through this further, if the vote actually had more 'no' votes than 'yes' but the HNT wallets of the 'yes' voters was more than 2/3 bigger than the wallets of the 'no' voters, HIP 55 would still pass?
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macbannai
So thinking through this further, if the vote actually had more 'no' votes than 'yes' but the HNT wallets of the 'yes' voters was more than 2/3 bigger than the wallets of the 'no' voters, HIP 55 would still pass?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:46 AM
Yep
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06:47
So to pass the hip needs 66% of the vote
06:47
So the no's don't need 51% or anything
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So to pass the hip needs 66% of the vote
66% of the weighted vote.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:47 AM
Yes weighted vote
cokes pinned a message to this channel. 02/19/2022 6:49 AM
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Yep
Oh man. A decentralized network by the people, governed centrally by HNT whales. Disappointing.
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yesterday's AMA is now available
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 6:50 AM
What is not clear to me yet following the discussion yesterday: Do the validators that hotspots connect to, need to be staked?
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HeliumVote needs the ability to tailor elections to those it affects most - especially to those that stand to lose something. HNT splitting - HNT weighting was correct for that one. HIP 55 - this one needs to be Hotspot weighted.
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Tim | LongAP
What is not clear to me yet following the discussion yesterday: Do the validators that hotspots connect to, need to be staked?
good question, ask in the HIP comments? one of the core devs can answer
06:51
it needs to heartbeat
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bkhall
HeliumVote needs the ability to tailor elections to those it affects most - especially to those that stand to lose something. HNT splitting - HNT weighting was correct for that one. HIP 55 - this one needs to be Hotspot weighted.
Not a healthy format to get an accurate vote, it's like the bigger HNT wallets have exponentially more votes than smaller fleet miners.
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macbannai
Oh man. A decentralized network by the people, governed centrally by HNT whales. Disappointing.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:54 AM
those whales are people too, that have everything riding on the network doing well tho
06:54
to hold that much hnt, and vote against whats best for the network would be silly
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
those whales are people too, that have everything riding on the network doing well tho
I agree, but we shouldn't be terming it as a generic "people's" network because it doesn't seem to be governed that way.
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macbannai
I agree, but we shouldn't be terming it as a generic "people's" network because it doesn't seem to be governed that way.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:55 AM
whats doing the voting then, robots?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
whats doing the voting then, robots?
Wallets are, lol
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Most of what you call whales are just early adopters of the network I suppose. Why shouldn’t those people who’ve been playing the long game not be allowed to vote?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
to hold that much hnt, and vote against whats best for the network would be silly
We all want the network to succeed - not really the debate. But the votes need to legitimately represent the players - that's really the main issue here.
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bkhall
We all want the network to succeed - not really the debate. But the votes need to legitimately represent the players - that's really the main issue here.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:56 AM
any ideas how we do that?
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cokes
good question, ask in the HIP comments? one of the core devs can answer
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 6:57 AM
Thanks done
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You said it earlier - Hotspot weighting (for this one) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:57 AM
so emrit rule?
06:57
those who have the most hotspots, early investors
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
any ideas how we do that?
Measure based on yes/no votes only, no other manipulating factors.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:57 AM
still control it that way
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macbannai
Measure based on yes/no votes only, no other manipulating factors.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:57 AM
how do you limit it to 1 person one vote?
06:58
cant i just go in and vote 100 times?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
still control it that way
Yes, but HIP 55 asks Hotspot owners to trade performance for rewards. They are the stakeholders here.
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bkhall
Yes, but HIP 55 asks Hotspot owners to trade performance for rewards. They are the stakeholders here.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:58 AM
0.9% of an epoch's rewards
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The HNT weighting is not perfect, but why should someone with 1M HNT skin in the game not have more say than someone with 2HNT trying to make a quick buck?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
cant i just go in and vote 100 times?
I thought I read that it only takes the last vote that was burned, so I assumed that we can only vote once based on that.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:58 AM
in return for days less downtime and improvement to earnings? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
0.9% of an epoch's rewards
Deleted User 02/19/2022 6:58 AM
its so tiny money .. guys
06:59
its nothing be real ...
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 6:59 AM
remember, current system
06:59
40%+ of poc fails
06:59
silently
06:59
after, with light hotspots, it wont
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 6:59 AM
exactl there is always a upside why we do stuff
06:59
its not just shifting arround money like some might think
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groot
The HNT weighting is not perfect, but why should someone with 1M HNT skin in the game not have more say than someone with 2HNT trying to make a quick buck?
No problem other than it's no longer the catchy phrases "the people".
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It's not actually about the amounts. It's about the stakeholders having the ability to decide. (edited)
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macbannai
I thought I read that it only takes the last vote that was burned, so I assumed that we can only vote once based on that.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
ill just spin up 100 wallets then and vote 100 times
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
then its about the hole dao system and not about hip 55 tbh
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macbannai
I thought I read that it only takes the last vote that was burned, so I assumed that we can only vote once based on that.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
remember, there is no cost to spinning up wallets
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
40%+ of poc fails
I'm curious on this figure, could this be something we don't actually see in our activities tab per hotspot?
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bkhall
It's not actually about the amounts. It's about the stakeholders having the ability to decide. (edited)
Validators are stakeholders too
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macbannai
No problem other than it's no longer the catchy phrases "the people".
Because if I have (hypothetically) a lot of HNT I am no longer one of the people?
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macbannai
I'm curious on this figure, could this be something we don't actually see in our activities tab per hotspot?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
you got it
07:00
its silent
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
ill just spin up 100 wallets then and vote 100 times
True, that would be a problem
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
failed to dial challenger, or challenger cant dial them
07:00
you dont even see it
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07:00
well, you can see some of it, in the miners logs
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:00 AM
sometimes you can see with 0/0
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:01 AM
but hotspots right now are mostly black boxes
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:01 AM
it all would go away ..
07:01
all this nonsense
07:01
even you setup as a hs owner will be easyier you dont need vpn maybe, or whatnot. you can reduse the cost
07:02
etc
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you got it
If we could actually quantify that, it could calm some people down, but it sounds a little like "let's pass it and then we'll see", you know what I mean?
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macbannai
If we could actually quantify that, it could calm some people down, but it sounds a little like "let's pass it and then we'll see", you know what I mean?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:02 AM
yep!
07:02
i think one important thing you can do is check your downtime
07:02
see how many 0 witness beacons you've had too
07:02
count potential missed earnings
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:02 AM
a lot 😉
07:02
dont do it you get angry
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:02 AM
and think you wouldn't have that with lgw
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:02 AM
^^
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groot
Because if I have (hypothetically) a lot of HNT I am no longer one of the people?
No not at all, but weighting the vote and telling everyone your vote counts is manipulative.
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macbannai
True, that would be a problem
Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:02 AM
This is something that long-time community members have thought a lot about, and there's not a perfect solution. There's no means of decentralized identity or personhood verification, even if you wanted to do 1 person, 1 vote.
07:03
I encourage you to contribute to the governance discussion elsewhere
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:03 AM
i support to 100% the hips 54 55 there is no way arround it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
and think you wouldn't have that with lgw
Everyone doesn’t have that so if it would be completely random earnings would not change, only more events and less per event.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:03 AM
we all agree it isnt perfect (the vote)
07:03
but its a darn sight better than what we had
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:03 AM
But every person wants the voting done a different way.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:03 AM
and it can change, doesnt have to stay this way
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:04 AM
Neil and I wouldn't agree on our perfect voting systems, probably. (edited)
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groot
Everyone doesn’t have that so if it would be completely random earnings would not change, only more events and less per event.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:04 AM
you have no p2p issues at all?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:04 AM
well its the complet system how helium is setup atm i think this thread is the wrong place to discuss fundamentals?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:04 AM
you sure?
07:04
lol
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If the voting wasn’t weighted the network would surely fail
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Angry Pickle Bear
I encourage you to contribute to the governance discussion elsewhere
Yes thank you, can you point me to where there is an active discussion on governance so I can join it?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:04 AM
cast a better dao / vote system
07:05
maybe you get ppl behind you
07:05
free place helium it is
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macbannai
Yes thank you, can you point me to where there is an active discussion on governance so I can join it?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:05 AM
#hip-31-governance-by-token-lock #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 there are 2 already up
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:05 AM
sweet thx
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:05 AM
theres also definitions of governance in the sub dao stuff
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07:05
#hip-51-helium-dao for example
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
theres also definitions of governance in the sub dao stuff
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:05 AM
what even is the sub dao
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I might not have explained it very well; if everyone has the same % p2p failures, and they all stop having those failures, everyone has an increase in events, but since the total stays the same the reward per event is just less (but more consistent).
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
what even is the sub dao
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:06 AM
blockchain company where "laws" are code
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
#hip-31-governance-by-token-lock #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 there are 2 already up
Are these already passed HIPs? Is there discussion to modify it or since it's passed it's a black hole chat?
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:06 AM
Re: Groot: Yeah, but I value my time so the less I have to look at hotspots, the better (edited)
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macbannai
Are these already passed HIPs? Is there discussion to modify it or since it's passed it's a black hole chat?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:06 AM
not passed, everyones struggling to agree on the right way
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07:07
the lastest iteration is the sub dao stuff
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
not passed, everyones struggling to agree on the right way
Cool thanks I'll join there and try to contribute
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:07 AM
do that thats the perfect place for it
07:07
we need ppl that care tbh
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:07 AM
yep
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When will we see results real time once 54/55 Are a done deal?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:08 AM
complaints dont help really
07:08
suggestions and hips do
07:08
some dont like 55, but im yet to see an alternative
07:08
some dont like hip40 , but again, no alternatives
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Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:08 AM
This is a community run process, so just complaining to other community members isn't really creating change
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Angry Pickle Bear
This is a community run process, so just complaining to other community members isn't really creating change
Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:09 AM
this , but we are here to remmeber them some think its a company they fight vs.. its not - its us.. real ppl like them ^^ (edited)
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Are there no alternatives because we are lacking more involvement that can bring ideas?
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Angry Pickle Bear
This is a community run process, so just complaining to other community members isn't really creating change
Well, you could just sneak it into the binaries🙊
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macbannai
Are there no alternatives because we are lacking more involvement that can bring ideas?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:09 AM
its an open process, its just no ones submitting other ideas really
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Angry Pickle Bear
This is a community run process, so just complaining to other community members isn't really creating change
Just to be clear, I wasn't complaining, I was trying to understand more and it kept getting deeper.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:09 AM
yes/no votes are never good, I'd prefer alternatives
07:10
you dont agree, so whats better?
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macbannai
Just to be clear, I wasn't complaining, I was trying to understand more and it kept getting deeper.
Angry Pickle Bear 02/19/2022 7:10 AM
Understood, I just said that because a lot of people show up and think if they complain to the "right person," they'll get what the want
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:10 AM
yes, i think we just have to get the word out, nothing is written in stone, you are unhappy, get your ass down write it down and share it
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07:10
you are not here to buy a produkt, you are here as a part of the community do what you wanna do
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Deleted User
yes, i think we just have to get the word out, nothing is written in stone, you are unhappy, get your ass down write it down and share it
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:10 AM
yep! get involved
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Angry Pickle Bear
Understood, I just said that because a lot of people show up and think if they complain to the "right person," they'll get what the want
I hear you
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:12 AM
for some its shooking to understand that there is no right person
07:12
ghihi
07:12
you can hear the nail dropping through discord ^^
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
you dont agree, so whats better?
"better" measured by whom? I've been vocal about HNT weighting on this HIP. All I get is "yeah, but ..." Alternatives will have side effects that need to be explored - meanwhile this vote is proceeding...
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bkhall
"better" measured by whom? I've been vocal about HNT weighting on this HIP. All I get is "yeah, but ..." Alternatives will have side effects that need to be explored - meanwhile this vote is proceeding...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:13 AM
better as in would get more votes
07:13
if you truly agree there is an alternative, write it up (edited)
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bkhall
"better" measured by whom? I've been vocal about HNT weighting on this HIP. All I get is "yeah, but ..." Alternatives will have side effects that need to be explored - meanwhile this vote is proceeding...
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:13 AM
and AFAIK a hip isnt passed until it has code
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:14 AM
the thing with this hips is , if you look up the person writing it, its not like they are like my coming here, 2 joints, a little bit keyboad and then they copy past it in a hip.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:14 AM
eg some people are talking revote on hip39 in favour of doing it on the sub dao level
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:14 AM
you have to put work in thats just how it is
07:14
everwhere.. not only here ^^
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So to be clear, I want this HIP to pass, BUT I also want legitimacy in the voting process. So, any change that I would author, would be against that, not this HIP.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:15 AM
i prefered the token burn
07:15
put your HNT where your mouth is
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
eg some people are talking revote on hip39 in favour of doing it on the sub dao level
Any idea on when a call will be taking place on these subDaos, because that can be confusing just reading through the discord on random days?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:16 AM
the question is that you have to ask first . who is WE
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:16 AM
if you really believe in something you'll vote, theres no downside to heliumvote and just voting without reading
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:16 AM
is we , hotspot owners? is we, valdiators? is we token holders?
07:16
who is we
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
put your HNT where your mouth is
A percentage would be good, so that it is proportional to HNT balance.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:16 AM
from there you see, ok who you do it fair, i got 100 hs, but sell every hnt i mine
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07:16
anotherguy has 0 , buys hnt like crazy
07:16
the 3 runs 100 validators worth 2,5m hnt
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bkhall
A percentage would be good, so that it is proportional to HNT balance.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:16 AM
yeah have a read of some of the governance hips, there was a curve based on when you voted
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:17 AM
its reallllly hard
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macbannai
Any idea on when a call will be taking place on these subDaos, because that can be confusing just reading through the discord on random days?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 7:17 AM
nothings been set yet
07:17
I love the ama/stages thing, i think all hips should have it
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07:17
get the authors up to field questions
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:18 AM
yes yes that was pretty good, and maybe upfront as an author you get ppl from the languages, so the make a brake down video after words (edited)
07:18
bam bam bam you got all languages informed no miss informing in the discord and internentz
07:18
and off we go next hip next ama
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i prefered the token burn
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 7:21 AM
i like token burn, doesn't all end up in the net emissions anyways?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:23 AM
i bet its so little heheh
07:24
for exmaple what you paid for you vote
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Deleted User
i bet its so little heheh
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 7:24 AM
like .01X or .001X including cost to burn which is like 35c i believe
07:25
but net emissions was one of the best ideas to hit this chain, insures long-term suitability, and reward mechanics
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 7:28 AM
35td dc and something so little i cant even find 🤣 (edited)
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I have tried to search I promise! Just to clarify, if HIP 55 passes, port forwarding will be a thing of the past yeah?
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Sam
I have tried to search I promise! Just to clarify, if HIP 55 passes, port forwarding will be a thing of the past yeah?
Correct
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AlexC
Correct
Thank you! So our beloved hotspots finally become plug and play
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Sam
Thank you! So our beloved hotspots finally become plug and play
Yep. No syncing either.
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true, I forgot that part in my excitement.
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I can't wait for this. all my beacons today were from relayed challengers
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It will be glorious
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capcom
It will be glorious
Just make sure you'll capture some data on the final size of the p2p network for the record books 😉
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macbannai
That makes more sense, but can you elaborate? Which wallet, whose wallet, the voting wallet? (edited)
Did you not read the text on HeliumVote.com before you voted?
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krby
Did you not read the text on HeliumVote.com before you voted?
🤔
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sneaky778
if this gets approved, how long will it take till it is implemented?
?
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sneaky778
?
It’s running on the testnet now, so hopefully more on the order of weeks than months (edited)
08:31
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
08:32
23 hotspots going strong
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capcom
It’s running on the testnet now, so hopefully more on the order of weeks than months (edited)
Nice
08:33
Cant wait Till Theres No More beacons without witnesses or lost witness receipts
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Dealing with the p2p network this large is a nightmare
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Tim | LongAP
What is not clear to me yet following the discussion yesterday: Do the validators that hotspots connect to, need to be staked?
They do in the proposed design, yes. They are providing attestations alongside the blockchain data they're proxying to the Light Hotspot.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
It doesn't matter if a random hotspots tries to challenge, what matters is only the correct hotspot can sign the transaction with its private key that matches the public key of the hotspot. The signed transaction is what is rewarded (if I'm understanding how PoC rewards work) (edited)
09:06
As I understand it nothing prevents random hotspots from connecting over grpc. The protection is instead on the rewards. So in order for a challenged hotspot to be rewarded, it eventually has to sign a transaction with it's private key. That public key that is known to the challenging validator has to match that same private key.
09:07
So, AFIAK, anyone can connect in over grpc and do connection level DDOS. But that's sort of the case now with the p2p network and validators.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
I believe (not 100% sure) the witnesses need to submit a their witness with information that should have only come from the actual challenged hotspot
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I assume the validator is only going to give out this challenge that it generated once rght? So if you receive it, the original recipient is not going to receive it so the whole challenge fails?
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
I'd prefer this too, or at least move the challenge creation and validation stuff to non-CG but staked validators. But I decided to vote yes because I think this is a step forward and on the GitHub issue, I see some evidence of the core team willing to consider other designs. It's a conscious\ decision to not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Not sure I'm right, but that's where I landed.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
I assume it would be trivial for the challenging validator to authenticate the correct challengee over grpc. Just verify a message signed with the challengee's private key.
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hashc0de
They do in the proposed design, yes. They are providing attestations alongside the blockchain data they're proxying to the Light Hotspot.
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:13 AM
So I commented on GitHub as well, but I agree with the general vibe here, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have potentially CG-members serving hotspots.
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So 1) Hotspot connects to challenger validator via grpc 2) Hotspot signs something small with it's private key 3) challenger validator attempts signature verification using the correct private key.
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That’s how it works today
09:15
Every single hotspot transaction has to be signed already
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Err, my mental model of these chips is that like most ICs heat is the real villian, but I haven't read specs so I don't actually know.
09:16
I guess the hotspots could be signing more under HIP-55, because each time the hex is selected they go check, but my gut feel is that's not really much more in a way that matters for the life of the ECC, but...noe I need to go figure that out by finding specs....damnit! (edited)
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krby
I guess the hotspots could be signing more under HIP-55, because each time the hex is selected they go check, but my gut feel is that's not really much more in a way that matters for the life of the ECC, but...noe I need to go figure that out by finding specs....damnit! (edited)
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Not really sure what you’re talking about as I haven’t read up, but it sounds wrong
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If you want to get into the technical details of gRPC, it may be useful to get to a common level of understanding around unary RPC and streaming / subscriptions: https://grpc.io/docs/what-is-grpc/core-concepts/ (edited)
An introduction to key gRPC concepts, with an overview of gRPC architecture and RPC life cycle.
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Ya, of course my mental model was wrong (and I knew this but didn't recall it) they're not purely R/W storage devices, but more complex processors. So I don't know enough to know how to rate "how many operations can this little co processer do over its lifetime"
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It's not every minute. It is only when that hotspot's hex is selected. (edited)
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it doesn't. read the link above.
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no. It is notified by an existing gRPC connection from the validator it is already connected to.
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No. They don’t have to re-sign every time…
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They aren't. Polling implies initiating a new connection.
09:21
And potentially a new authentication
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Not at all. 1) HS1 connects to Val1. This stays up. 2) time passes 3) CG Val 2 decides that "Hex 456" is being challenged 4) Val1 tells HS1 "hey you're in Hex456, go see if you're challenged" 5) HS1 does a new grpc connection to CG Val2, signs it message to it to ask if it is being challenged. (edited)
👆 2
09:23
I am saying that I assume the design is not to have hotspots auth all the time, but ONLY when checking key bits of info, like "am I being challenged?"
09:23
So it's at the application layer that the code controls, individual requests can be signed or not depending on what the core team (or whoever implements this) decides.
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This would be the worst model ever
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krby
Not at all. 1) HS1 connects to Val1. This stays up. 2) time passes 3) CG Val 2 decides that "Hex 456" is being challenged 4) Val1 tells HS1 "hey you're in Hex456, go see if you're challenged" 5) HS1 does a new grpc connection to CG Val2, signs it message to it to ask if it is being challenged. (edited)
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:25 AM
And for the record, I don't think steps 4 and 5 are great. I think it would be better if HS1 gets the messages from Val1 so connections are stable and hotspots don't need to go connecting to random CG Validators. And communication between validators should happen as much as possible through gossip, not directed connections (edited)
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In other services that use this sort of auth model, I've written code to specifically avoid that DOS, it seems to be a well known attack to defend against among people who write this sort of code.
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What is the benefit of duplicating sessions? This is a bizarre conversation so far
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Tim | LongAP
And for the record, I don't think steps 4 and 5 are great. I think it would be better if HS1 gets the messages from Val1 so connections are stable and hotspots don't need to go connecting to random CG Validators. And communication between validators should happen as much as possible through gossip, not directed connections (edited)
Agree with this.
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Why do you need an authenticated session to do that?
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You can DOS without making valid connections. Just connect and send junk data slowly. In fact this is a common DOS technique now. (edited)
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So back to my first question…
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This HIP does not make DOS risk to validators better or worse, IMO. It's not intended to do either. (edited)
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krby
This HIP does not make DOS risk to validators better or worse, IMO. It's not intended to do either. (edited)
Right. You can DOS validators today on any of their known ports
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Those are already known. You can try and halt block production now.
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That’s not your point though. Your point is malicious behavior, which I don’t think changes
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:28 AM
This is not your average service operated by a single company, there's no such think as scaling services in a blockchain. But I do agree that light-hotspots should be served by specific light-hotspot-serving non-CG-able validators. (edited)
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If you want to DOS validators then you don’t care about grpc vs libp2p, the hosts are all already known, as is their IP and port availability
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There was/is a validator security HIP channel. This conversation belongs there. I'm not convinced the simple-to-pull-off attack of just "connect and send junk" is changed by this.
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I think that’s a fine v2 upgrade of the idea. But remain unconvinced that there’s any new vector for denial of services here, unless there is a hole in grpc or the specific service running it
09:31
There may well be some holes btw, I’m just not sure it’s the same conversation
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I guess we just see this differently. To me: 1) Move challenge production off hotspots to relieve them of the need to sync and get have inbound connections 2) Do something to help with validator resilience to DOS. I see those as both worthy things, and also separate tasks. Because IMO two is the same risk now as it is after 1 is done.
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I’m curious how other validator chains handle #2
09:32
We’re not the only PoS chain with validators and lots of clients
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If you're worried about 1 making more load and making DOS more likely, there are far more common reasons of validator "load", people under spec'ing them, huge blocks, a VPS provider suddenly over subscribing their hosts and CPU steal going up.
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capcom
I think that’s a fine v2 upgrade of the idea. But remain unconvinced that there’s any new vector for denial of services here, unless there is a hole in grpc or the specific service running it
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:32 AM
I just don't see why you want to connect directly to CG-validators.
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capcom
We’re not the only PoS chain with validators and lots of clients
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:33 AM
No but you are one of the few that requires directed connections, most of them only use gossip and there's a good reason for that (edited)
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Tim | LongAP
No but you are one of the few that requires directed connections, most of them only use gossip and there's a good reason for that (edited)
I’m not sure if that’s true. Solana for example uses UDP directly to the validator group
09:33
Or QUIC now
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capcom
We’re not the only PoS chain with validators and lots of clients
I don't know enough on this, but other people do and I think brought them up in that (now archived?) validator security channel. Something about many bastion hosts in front of actual validators, where bastions are cheap/easy to spin up. So you end up with many of them to better absorb just raw connection DOS-type things.
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They already do, and from a LOT of hotspots. This HIP doesn't change that.
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capcom
I’m not sure if that’s true. Solana for example uses UDP directly to the validator group
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:35 AM
Yes, both are UDP, so not really a stateful connection and there's a very good reason for that. (edited)
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Sure, just not the same thing as what you were saying
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Correct, but that's not a reason to vote no on this HIP, IMO. That's a much tougher problem to solve well, and this HIP doesn't make the risk worse than it is now.
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I’m sure some people would argue quic is stateful, but not really the point. I like the idea of a separate service, it also solves some of the questions around rewards
09:37
HIP104 upgrade
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Ya, I know I don't have proof. It's my opinion. I don't think yours is totally off base either, but it feels like you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. The p2p network with hotspots is a huge problem now, I wish it could have been solved months ago, but there wasn't enough bandwidth for the core team. So to me that's a much bigger problem to solve ASAP.
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I think it’s hard to overstate exactly how much team bandwidth maintaining the current network consumes
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This started with the question whether you could bombard the validators with requests (pretending to be another hotspot) in order to find which hotspot was targeted so you could fix your rssi accordingly. I assume we've reached the conclusion that's a hard no? (edited)
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capcom
I’m sure some people would argue quic is stateful, but not really the point. I like the idea of a separate service, it also solves some of the questions around rewards
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:38 AM
My main concern is that it will be too easy to deplete the maximum number of connections of CG members allowing for very easy DDoS-ing. (edited)
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krby
I don't know enough on this, but other people do and I think brought them up in that (now archived?) validator security channel. Something about many bastion hosts in front of actual validators, where bastions are cheap/easy to spin up. So you end up with many of them to better absorb just raw connection DOS-type things.
Ahh! #hip-34-validator-node-security . It's archived, but several people were debating solutions to this problem there.
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Tim | LongAP
My main concern is that it will be too easy to deplete the maximum number of connections of CG members allowing for very easy DDoS-ing. (edited)
Possible, although the validators are already connected to a 600k node p2p network
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krby
Ahh! #hip-34-validator-node-security . It's archived, but several people were debating solutions to this problem there.
i think it was archived because no actual implementation was proposed as an addendum to the hip. lots of good discussion but no pen to paper.
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That’s a very factual statement for a very subjective point of view
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Tim | LongAP
My main concern is that it will be too easy to deplete the maximum number of connections of CG members allowing for very easy DDoS-ing. (edited)
Yup, but this is true now with just "connect and send junk" DDOS attacks, no p2p protocol level knowledge needed.
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To you indeed
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hashc0de
i think it was archived because no actual implementation was proposed as an addendum to the hip. lots of good discussion but no pen to paper.
Yup, agree. It was more of a "let's talk" and never became an actual HIP. I hope it comes back, it's a good thing to talk about and seems like one of the big things an non-core member could work out and implement code for using experience from other chains.
🤞 1
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The complexity of introducing another actor is high, many months of work at best, like validators. Staging this seems correct, if there even needs to be a second stage. The team and the network are both crushed by maintaining the present state. Let’s fix that first then talk
09:42
That would be glorious
09:42
Maybe you can write the HIP to move rewards from validators to grpc’ers too 😅
09:43
Feel free to email to me
09:43
We’re always hiring
09:44
😬
09:44
amir@
09:44
Put something in the subject that I’m likely to remember
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I'm probably not helping, but it seems the core diff of opinion is whether HIP-55 actually makes DOS attacks easier. Me (and I think a few others) are assuming that the dead simple attack exists now without needing hotspots, just bots that can do a socket connect. That there may be more direct connections to a validator from HIP-55 doesn't change that much. DDOS would be a huge wave of connections regadless.
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500 emails a day from recruiters right now
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Tim | LongAP
I just don't see why you want to connect directly to CG-validators.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 9:45 AM
under the current system, it greatly increases the success of miners getting rewarded for successful witness when they're peer'd to CG-validators. not sure if going from libp2p to gRPC is going to be the same or not
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He is not likely drunk now, he's hiring engineers in a REALLY tight market (well tight for actual talent that fits well)
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krby
He is not likely drunk now, he's hiring engineers in a REALLY tight market (well tight for actual talent that fits well)
Is it too early to be drunk?
🍻 2
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Depends on the tz
09:46
always past 5 somewhere
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capcom
Is it too early to be drunk?
No, you just sound like me when I run across on an enthusiastic person that might be a fit that isn't coming from a recruiter.
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We need to hire for basically every role, so don’t worry about that
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capcom
500 emails a day from recruiters right now
Hi there Amir! I love your background and work experience! You would be the perfect fit as a <INSERT ROLE HERE> at one of the top financial firms in the nation! This role starts out 100% remote with the intentions to go back into office in....
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So, maybe we open up a "validator security" channel not not related to a HIP? The goal would be (I hope) to get to a HIP'able design. Dunno, maybe the existing validator channel is enough?
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Fizzy
Hi there Amir! I love your background and work experience! You would be the perfect fit as a <INSERT ROLE HERE> at one of the top financial firms in the nation! This role starts out 100% remote with the intentions to go back into office in....
Even better when it’s “Hi there <NAME>”
coolcry 1
09:49
Sorry for the off topic. As you were
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Hi krby I wanted to check in for a final time to see if you would like to discuss some recruiting help with your <ROLE> I know of at least a couple of candidates that would likely be a good fit for the job.
I got several of those where <ROLE> was clearly inside a mail-merge for-loop thing.
09:50
Also...this wasn't the "final" time this email address reached out about all of the <ROLE>s
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All good fun. Alright, temp check now? Or we got more 'they took our rewards!' peeps?
09:55
oh right, this one is on vote already
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capcom
Possible, although the validators are already connected to a 600k node p2p network
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:55 AM
Yeah, but with challenging validators suddenly you need to receive a lot of specific connections within certain timeframe.
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There are 3500 validators, so I’m optimistic
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capcom
There are 3500 validators, so I’m optimistic
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 9:57 AM
Yeah but only 49(?) in CG and hotspots themselves over slow connections need to connect to them within a specific timeframe.
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Tim | LongAP
Yeah but only 49(?) in CG and hotspots themselves over slow connections need to connect to them within a specific timeframe.
43, and at current rate about a thousand poc receipts a minute.
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We should be able to simulate on the testnet
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I’m fairly new. As a hotspot operator (several of them), with roughly the 0.9% rewards moving to Validators as per hip-55, how much would it roughly affect my hotspot(s) earnings? I can see the benefits of hip-55 for the network, specially as it has had some major outages. I want to vote in favor of hip-55, but I feel little by little we keep chipping away rewards away from hotspot operators. Some clarification on the matter would be nice. Just trying to educate myself more about the subject.
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Complete receipts, so potentially x 300witnesses or something?
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:00 AM
Anyway here’s an idea: make sure the challenging GRPC requests can be validated independently (ie without being a validator) so a scaleable distributed service can pre-verify and anti-DDOS requests.
💯 1
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capcom
Is it too early to be drunk?
Pirate_ProfTK 02/19/2022 10:01 AM
It's never too early to be drunk 🍺
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Please do
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:02 AM
I think this could be done without any chain changes with very little interface changes
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Sort of
10:02
The onboarding servers are one such example
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:03 AM
Basically hotspots are still talking to CG-validators but there’s a GRPC filter operated by the validator
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But “no chain changes” is always optimistic
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I too am worried about a hex full of hotspots swarming to a CG member, I'd prefer non-staked validators do the challenge creation and related work, but I still voted yes on this. I got some hope via comments on the github issue that the core team is at least thinking about these concerns and willing to change the design later. I may be wrong, but I feel this such a big move forward for hotspots (mine and the rest of the network) that I decided to trust that. (edited)
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capcom
But “no chain changes” is always optimistic
Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:04 AM
If I put a GRPC load balancer/filter in front of the validator software you wouldn’t even notice
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Does the CG election currently taking into account where a Validator is running? My question is about cloud outage like we had last year on aws NA
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I really do need that drink
💯 1
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mino
Does the CG election currently taking into account where a Validator is running? My question is about cloud outage like we had last year on aws NA
Not at all, but that could be proposed in a HIP. It's not super trivial though. GeoIP is a thing, but you need all the "inputs" into the election algorithm on chain. (edited)
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:06 AM
My aim would be not to share anything
10:06
@capcom is the PoC GRPC interface somewhere?
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krby
I too am worried about a hex full of hotspots swarming to a CG member, I'd prefer non-staked validators do the challenge creation and related work, but I still voted yes on this. I got some hope via comments on the github issue that the core team is at least thinking about these concerns and willing to change the design later. I may be wrong, but I feel this such a big move forward for hotspots (mine and the rest of the network) that I decided to trust that. (edited)
How many will that actually be, the ETL is down so I don't have a good estimate on how many connections we are actually talking about but that would be a nice metric in this discussion.
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that doesn't reflect the chance that all currently elected validators are running on the same platform
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Tim | LongAP
@capcom is the PoC GRPC interface somewhere?
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Tim | LongAP
@capcom is the PoC GRPC interface somewhere?
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groot
How many will that actually be, the ETL is down so I don't have a good estimate on how many connections we are actually talking about but that would be a nice metric in this discussion.
Someone (PaulM?) threw out a guestimate of I think 3000 at worst? not sure. (edited)
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krby
Someone (PaulM?) threw out a guestimate of I think 3000 at worst? not sure. (edited)
Doesn't sound like that's going to affect a validator, just guessing though.
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Tim | LongAP
@capcom is the PoC GRPC interface somewhere?
light gateways (challengees) validator pool consensus member 1 Challengee GW transmits challenge packet Recipient GWs send unary GRPC request to challenging CG member to check if they are the target Sibyl sends a notification all connected gateways located within the target region Light GWs estab...
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jetlagalex
I’m fairly new. As a hotspot operator (several of them), with roughly the 0.9% rewards moving to Validators as per hip-55, how much would it roughly affect my hotspot(s) earnings? I can see the benefits of hip-55 for the network, specially as it has had some major outages. I want to vote in favor of hip-55, but I feel little by little we keep chipping away rewards away from hotspot operators. Some clarification on the matter would be nice. Just trying to educate myself more about the subject.
Pirate_ProfTK 02/19/2022 10:10 AM
Imagine your hotspot going out of synch and taking 5 hours to synch up. It probably happened to you tbh, cause it happens to everyone. You lost 5 hours of witnessing. That is is far more than the challenge rewards, if you have your hotspot at a decent location. This hip prevents that.
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Tim | LongAP 02/19/2022 10:10 AM
Ok, just a quick check, I think it’s possible to run a load-balancer/proxy/filter with the current GRPC protocol in front of a validator. (edited)
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Pirate_ProfTK
Imagine your hotspot going out of synch and taking 5 hours to synch up. It probably happened to you tbh, cause it happens to everyone. You lost 5 hours of witnessing. That is is far more than the challenge rewards, if you have your hotspot at a decent location. This hip prevents that.
was there any other solution discussed to mitigate the issues? (that doesn't reflect my opinion on hip55) (edited)
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mino
was there any other solution discussed to mitigate the issues? (that doesn't reflect my opinion on hip55) (edited)
Pirate_ProfTK 02/19/2022 10:18 AM
Do you see a better way other than this? Like people before mentioned there are certain things that needs to be addressed in the future. However, we can't let the perfection be the enemy of progress
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I wasn't saying this isn't the best option. I was asking if this the only viable option we have considering someone else knows more about this.
10:22
but yeah probably already asked a thousand times. is there some Q&A info about this section already besides the ama?
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mino
but yeah probably already asked a thousand times. is there some Q&A info about this section already besides the ama?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 10:24 AM
Well, #hip-discussion is basically everything
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 10:37 AM
I know this probably won't happen but
10:37
Heres something I just thought of in general
10:37
I think one thing that they can do, is instead of giving validators the rewards for challenges, they should let hotspot owners volunteer to also run their hotspots on the tesnet, and get rewards that originally came from the challenges for helping test things on it (or maybe mappers) (edited)
10:38
How large is the testnet?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
How large is the testnet?
I dug this link up from the Validator testnet days: https://explorer.helium.wtf/ I don't know if everything on it works. Ignore mine, use BFGNeil's below (edited)
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krby
I dug this link up from the Validator testnet days: https://explorer.helium.wtf/ I don't know if everything on it works. Ignore mine, use BFGNeil's below (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:08 AM
There's a new one for light hotspot testing
11:08
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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krby
I dug this link up from the Validator testnet days: https://explorer.helium.wtf/ I don't know if everything on it works. Ignore mine, use BFGNeil's below (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 11:11 AM
Thanks
11:11
Both of you
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Pirate_ProfTK
Do you see a better way other than this? Like people before mentioned there are certain things that needs to be addressed in the future. However, we can't let the perfection be the enemy of progress
Well said.
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Are these actual hs deployed? And can users opt and donate a certain time their hs for testing purposes?
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Tarek
Are these actual hs deployed? And can users opt and donate a certain time their hs for testing purposes?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 11:45 AM
They are virtual at the moment (edited)
11:45
Instructions on how to run a testnet hotspot are coming, but you don't earn anything from doing it
11:45
Just worthless tnt token
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I have another hs coming soon, i’d opt in for testing until i have a location for it
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
any ideas how we do that?
HNT.solutions 02/19/2022 12:02 PM
Count votes by the HS's number of "bi-directional witnesses", as this is a good indicator of a healthy, well placed HS that's adding greatest value to the network. Those HS owners need to be heard, loud & clear. 🤔
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One question - this HiP55 will only benefit the validators right?
12:45
Concerning rewards*
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wiss-
One question - this HiP55 will only benefit the validators right?
Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:45 PM
firstly it will benefit the network
12:45
dang you edit ^^🙂 (edited)
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:46 PM
but tbh even then its a no, the word on the street is that unshown failed not paied pog that has mostly the reason of p2p and co is at least as high as we will get by using LH
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I mean, I understand the reason for the update with making the network more stable. But how come the voting is so one-sided?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:47 PM
so normaly its a win 4 all even rewards wise
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wiss-
I mean, I understand the reason for the update with making the network more stable. But how come the voting is so one-sided?
Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:47 PM
cause ppl that have a lot of token normaly understand the full picutre and obv it has to be a vote yes
12:48
there is no doubt tbh ^^
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Alright then. Cause everyone is talking about a change in rewards tilting towards "those who has more will get even more"
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:48 PM
nah its nothing about that if all works out hs owners will have less fail becons, less 0 / 0 (edited)
12:48
let me refrace.. not less NONE
12:48
and by that more money
12:49
it might sound harsh but its just the uninformed saying the rich get richer. its nothing like that at i think / i am sure others will agree (edited)
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Hm okay. Surely there are ppl smarter than me figuring this out. My main issue with the network so far has been that there is no way companies will use it if the hardware is in the ownership of incompetent consumers.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:50 PM
see that was even the full reason to begin with, with creating validators, with creatin light hotspots
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I myself is trying to build a stable coverage in my hometown and there are hotspots going offline/online all the time...
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:50 PM
at the begining we had no validators, hs had to meet for a consensus .. that was a "funny" time (edited)
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Deleted User
at the begining we had no validators, hs had to meet for a consensus .. that was a "funny" time (edited)
Yeah I can only imagine 😅
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:51 PM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io is way more known then me tho. he is the best for all deep questions
12:51
he is the og ^^
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 12:51 PM
lol
12:52
yeah
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Haha damn bringing the og to this
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 12:52 PM
we had halts most days when hotspots did consensus
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wiss-
Hm okay. Surely there are ppl smarter than me figuring this out. My main issue with the network so far has been that there is no way companies will use it if the hardware is in the ownership of incompetent consumers.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/19/2022 12:53 PM
in real terms, data usage has mostly be uneffected recently, its been a dream to use
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
we had halts most days when hotspots did consensus
Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:53 PM
you mean little mobile phones trying to figure out if the world is correct or not
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Well, I'm doing my best to keep a stable network in my hometown with 130k habitants and 5th largest city in Sweden... If this update will make it easier for stability I'm all for it 👍🏼
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:53 PM
ehehehehehehe
12:53
consensus sounds like they had one hahaha
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wiss-
Well, I'm doing my best to keep a stable network in my hometown with 130k habitants and 5th largest city in Sweden... If this update will make it easier for stability I'm all for it 👍🏼
Deleted User 02/19/2022 12:54 PM
to all we know as said, it should come out as a win win for all, and way wayyyyyyyyy more stable network
12:55
( but i am alrdy impressed how it is today as we grow from 100k to 500k in nothing, and yes we had fights with the network, 2 big ones but overall, show me network growing THIS crazy ) (edited)
12:56
lets keep pushing ^^
12:58
why you think that?
12:59
the challenge for a becon is not a big thing, the plan is not to put it to validators cause of the work (edited)
13:00
its that we can reduse this p2p , port fowording, problems, as a validator should be a big server etc etc
13:01
a lot of challenges just never happends you dont see them not happning ether
13:01
a lot of challanges just go blub in the dark hole
13:01
thats the status quo
13:02
a challange is not more then a ping, 3500 servers can do that easy for millions of hs ( its more how they do it how effizent it is etc ) (edited)
13:03
well i am not dev, but imo yes they can
13:04
they just have to the will made so they can
13:04
😂
13:05
the challange is just a broadcast its realy a small thing
13:05
its nothing special at all ^^
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moving the 0.9% reward to the validators group is a terrible move when looking at getting miners covering low density areas. I'm baffled this HIP will be accepted. (edited)
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:06 PM
you understand that you cant even now if you loose 0.9 or gain ? cause you dont see the failed challenges that make you loose money every day?
13:07
thats why all vote yes 🙂
13:07
its not shifting money to everbody
13:07
its shifting WORK to someone that should do it better then the hs (edited)
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and the reward
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:07 PM
well
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it says it right there in the HIP
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:07 PM
as said yours should go up aswell
13:07
i know the hip 🙂
13:08
you understand it fixes stuff that makes you loose money alrdy?
13:08
thats my question ^^
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Ih8mypp
and the reward
Its taking like 0.008 per hotspot per day🤐
13:08
Cmon
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:08 PM
doesnt matter maybe its a lot to him
13:08
the point is this: you understand it fixes stuff that makes you loose money alrdy?
13:09
is it on the mars?
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The problem is that in low density areas creating challenges is an important part of getting some earnings if you barely get to see any beacons
13:09
You guys do have a point
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:09 PM
true, well
13:10
the end plan is to have no low dense areas what can you do
13:10
stop all just some ppl are in mars with 1 miner .. cant be the problem solver aswell
13:11
at end its a network , lora wan
13:11
so speaking with other HS over lorawan / and inernet is the point about hole helium (edited)
13:11
sorry if it sounds ugly 😦
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Both parties make strong arguments
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:12 PM
i would even argue, with Light hotspots your area gets high dense faster cause the HS are cheaper
13:13
its complicated 🙂 demokratie suxxx, i was always for a friendly diktatorship - me
13:14
🤣
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yes, but cities get high dense easily, but you want to have intensive to cover areas between cities
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:14 PM
true but see the thing is that the challanges where never made to support singel miners in making money (edited)
13:15
you go from the other side , devs look from there side and see it doesnt work
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Tarek
Its taking like 0.008 per hotspot per day🤐
in average the earnings of HS will be ~3% lower
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:16 PM
from a dev prospective they just fix stuff that doesnt work, full hs cant do the trick, they can do all but not consesus , lets make validator, they can not make challanges cause of p2p and co , lets shift it there (edited)
13:16
its not about money you just have to trust ppl that know a little or you stay with your opinion
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:17 PM
who was stopping you to buy 25td hnt? 🙂
13:18
this guys invest a lot you do like they just rob us
13:18
well mine nether ^^
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
You do know the more Validators that come online, the less they receive .... Just like hotspots.... right?
13:20
Not to mention that their HNT is locked up for x amount of months, and YOU with a HOTSPOT, can liquidate everything at anytime, including the physical assets.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:20 PM
is there not also penaltys? not sure if it was here or different chain (edited)
13:21
so you actually can loose if you make a mistake with your server etc ?
13:21
or not atm ?
13:21
tldr not that easy, cowboy ^^
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Deleted User
is there not also penaltys? not sure if it was here or different chain (edited)
I do not think there is a penalty, it is 100% locked up, no way to remove until the timer runs out. I am not a validator, so do not quote me.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:23 PM
I see , might be a different chain where you get penalty for downtime as a validator
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If the server is misconfigured; or not up-to date, then it earns nothing. So in that aspect of it there is a cost to maintaining.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 1:24 PM
anways still a lot ppl think its about money sadly
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Deleted User
I see , might be a different chain where you get penalty for downtime as a validator
On this Helium blockchain, Validator stake is locked up for ~5 months after you unstake (and stop earning validator rewards). There is no slashing (taking away parts of your stake as a penalty) right now (maybe in the future?). There are "penalties" applied to validators, but these penalties just reduce the validator's chances of being elected to CG, which is how validators earn rewards. So, no slashing of 10,000 HNT stake, but penalties make it less likely to be elected for a while. But, the penalty system for validators is really difficult to interpret. It's not as simple as: "ok, I got a penalty point for missing BBA I need to upgrade my disk." In fact, it appears some penalties just happen randomly and the dev team as said that this is expected. (edited)
👍 1
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So with this proposed hip does that mean that the hotspots won't be issuing challenges, poc, or both?
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diglot
So with this proposed hip does that mean that the hotspots won't be issuing challenges, poc, or both?
Hotspots will not be issuing challenges. They will be challenged (rewards for beaconing and witnessed by others) and the will be able to witness other challenged hotspots (rewards for witnessing)
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:16 PM
thanks krby !
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@KRBY then the POC and witnessing rewards will remain the same for the hotspots and they will only lose out on the challenger rewards but the hotspots also won't need to worry about being relayed or syncing the entire blockchain, correct?
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diglot
@KRBY then the POC and witnessing rewards will remain the same for the hotspots and they will only lose out on the challenger rewards but the hotspots also won't need to worry about being relayed or syncing the entire blockchain, correct?
Correct
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its like 94% yes or so
14:20
so it doesnt really matter anymore
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That seems like a great trade-off then. There isn't much rewards that result from issuing challenges. Most of the rewards come from poc and witnessing anyway
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validators hold the mass of HNT, validators will get more due to this HIP, the voting is just for public appearance, its a farce
14:27
Those things aren't going to happen
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
And that day will be a great HNT day for the remaining units online.
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The way the voting works is just bad for the idea of this project. You need the mass to make this successful, but the power is in the hands of the few, making it perfect for self enrichment
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The pinned video is incorrect when he states that the same HNT is produced every day.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
If anyone has solutions, make them be heard. Otherwise the only contribution being had here is texts of angry fingers that will scroll off into the ether.
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A solution lies in having a vote per miner as they actually contribute to the provided service
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Ih8mypp
A solution lies in having a vote per miner as they actually contribute to the provided service
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:32 PM
nope its not the solutions
14:32
that would be realy bad imo
14:32
that would be even more dezentral as it is now 🙂
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Ih8mypp
A solution lies in having a vote per miner as they actually contribute to the provided service
Right, and I agree. But then people come back and say "Ohhh but what about Emit or the hosting companies, what about a manufacture taking control"
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:33 PM
Thats why i dont agree 🙂
14:33
exactly cause of that
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^ see, can't win
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If they have the miners deployed then they make a useful contribution to the coverage of the network and that's more worthy than some rich kid holding a lot of HNT
💯 1
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fizzy just a none related question that i have been thinking about
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Ih8mypp
If they have the miners deployed then they make a useful contribution to the coverage of the network and that's more worthy than some rich kid holding a lot of HNT
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:34 PM
but its not like that , a lot of miners are conzentrated in some places ( the owner power ) you just dont know (edited)
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The power of the voice in this project lies with money, and not with network contribution
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what if we purpose a new hip to increase the HNT SUPPLY 😄 i mean so what if the token economy goes down a little in the short run 😄
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:35 PM
i know nobody less then 5 miners the most got 20+. so i get min. 5 votes yes? well i vote yes on the hips ^^ (edited)
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And thus one can expect changes to be voted on with the idea of gaining more money
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:35 PM
sounds good lets go
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Deleted User
i know nobody less then 5 miners the most got 20+. so i get min. 5 votes yes? well i vote yes on the hips ^^ (edited)
That's fine, I don't say people would vote no if it were based per miner and not HNT, just saying its a much more reasonable way of voting
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is it really possible to do it like add more HNT to the chain
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:36 PM
dont think it will bro you wished but the miners are way to dezentral there are wallets with thousends
14:36
thousssssssands
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worst can happen is HNT price drops a little but interest increases
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Deleted User
dont think it will bro you wished but the miners are way to dezentral there are wallets with thousends
yes, and they make a good contribution to network coverage, the actual idea behind this project
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:37 PM
ah if someone comes and pays them they vote what they get payed for
14:37
smilie
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cryptoz
what if we purpose a new hip to increase the HNT SUPPLY 😄 i mean so what if the token economy goes down a little in the short run 😄
If you can explain your side of the economic value and outcome and write that into a HIP. idk what Helium would say. Like they said before we can't touch HST holders, so something like "Delay the halving" (which was a short outburst movement last year) might not even get a vote.. akkoShrug
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not by helium but i am 70% sure the people would love it
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:38 PM
helium is the ppl there is no "helium"
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although if helium doesnt like it the current voting system will crush the hip 😄
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Deleted User
helium is the ppl there is no "helium"
if only what u said was true
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:39 PM
well from a legal prospective it is 100% true
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It's virtually impossible to take away the power of those who hold it, if they are to vote on the proposal
14:39
It's just a fundamental flaw in how the voting has been designed
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we can do like dislike vote like before 😄 done deal why involve HNT and whales
14:40
i mean the differences in the votes is ridiculous
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cryptoz
not by helium but i am 70% sure the people would love it
Well I was sure 1% of the 70% of people last year that were like "Delay the halving" would have put in the effort to write a HIP to make it official, but no one ever did, and no evidence that Helium or friends swatted down the idea. sooo make a hip but don't get hurt if someone says no, cant do because that would fundamentally change the way this network was designed to play out or something.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:40 PM
the thing is i am in helium 15 months and i got told about light hotspots the first 1 or second week. the same with the voting system it was put in place back then. dont get me wrong but some of you sound like they bought 1 hs last night and now are all angry and stuff (edited)
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Also afaik the HIPS leave no room for against arguments to be listed with them when the HIPS are discussed for voting
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:41 PM
if you are in this space its WIDLY known light hs have to come
14:41
since ages
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Ih8mypp
Also afaik the HIPS leave no room for against arguments to be listed with them when the HIPS are discussed for voting
Uhhh, do you know how many of the previous HIP channels have not yet been voted on? (edited)
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well i own 80 hs and enough validators and early adaptor but still some stuff that i dont like. although i got more than 50 people into this project i am feeling that big big boys like myself and others are the ones that are controlling the votes
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What you're not getting from this discussion is that, at least from my part, I am entirely not against light hotspots. The more coverage, the better. I am against giving the validators the 0.9% HNT. I think this proposal should shift the 0.9HNT to low coverage miners instead.
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Fizzy
Uhhh, do you know how many of the previous HIP channels have not yet been voted on? (edited)
lol almost all 😄
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Fizzy
Uhhh, do you know how many of the previous HIP channels have not yet been voted on? (edited)
yes, but discord doesn't allow for easy viewing of for and against arguments, especially for people who drop in for information once and a while
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cryptoz
well i own 80 hs and enough validators and early adaptor but still some stuff that i dont like. although i got more than 50 people into this project i am feeling that big big boys like myself and others are the ones that are controlling the votes
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:43 PM
tell me a world where the early adopters are not the winner
14:43
1.
14:43
it is how it is (edited)
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Deleted User
tell me a world where the early adopters are not the winner
true but still winning doesnt mean the have the right to controll the system
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:43 PM
true but nobody came with a better solultion till now?
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i think that helium can be decentralized without asking people what they need to vote
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:44 PM
i am open for everthing bring one , make a hip etc
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if light hs is good
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:44 PM
so are others
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do it
14:44
dont ask around
14:44
this is something related to the blockchain
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cryptoz
i think that helium can be decentralized without asking people what they need to vote
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:44 PM
no it cant ^^
14:44
sorry but there is stuff that cant just cant 🙂
14:44
whatever you write (edited)
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what if a hip that is bad for the blockchain gets approved what happens than ?
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
welcome to crypto
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although that would never happen
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
its like that in EVERY CHAIN
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cryptoz
although that would never happen
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
If it did pass, it would go through.
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Ih8mypp
yes, but discord doesn't allow for easy viewing of for and against arguments, especially for people who drop in for information once and a while
I refer back to my "If anyone has solutions, make them be heard. Otherwise the only contribution being had here is texts of angry fingers that will scroll off into the ether." ^ For example this channel, all there have been is against arguments. And in relation to other channels, the code has been written for this, because it is for Light Hotspots, thus the vote that is happening now. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
It’s a community driven project
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
if a fork gets more miner power, its the winner
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
If the community drives it to the ground that’s where it’s going
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:45 PM
its always be like that
14:46
if you country votes trump ...
14:46
lets not go there ^^
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:46 PM
trump
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:46 PM
its votes bro i am a bit shocked welcome to world 😦
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Fizzy
I refer back to my "If anyone has solutions, make them be heard. Otherwise the only contribution being had here is texts of angry fingers that will scroll off into the ether." ^ For example this channel, all there have been is against arguments. And in relation to other channels, the code has been written for this, because it is for Light Hotspots, thus the vote that is happening now. (edited)
fizzy like this hip or not this hip will go through cz of light hotspots
14:46
if this one doesnt go through
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Fizzy
I refer back to my "If anyone has solutions, make them be heard. Otherwise the only contribution being had here is texts of angry fingers that will scroll off into the ether." ^ For example this channel, all there have been is against arguments. And in relation to other channels, the code has been written for this, because it is for Light Hotspots, thus the vote that is happening now. (edited)
You don't always need to come up with a solution when pointing out a problem. Anyway, I did propose alternatives in this discussion here.
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BYE BYE Light hotspots
14:47
this is planned bro
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:47 PM
If this doesn’t go through we won’t have light hotspots, but it’s a definite win
14:47
People aren’t voting because they know it will pass either way
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Ih8mypp
You don't always need to come up with a solution when pointing out a problem. Anyway, I did propose alternatives in this discussion here.
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:47 PM
you dont need, but you are not first one pointing out the problem, we know the problem, we all just dont know a better solutions atm (edited)
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cryptoz
fizzy like this hip or not this hip will go through cz of light hotspots
Orrrrr someone could copy paste this HIP into a new one, and change where that 0.9 is going. There has been multiple HIPs for Governance with different ideas. There is no reason why this one can not be the same.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
That .9% should go to Testnet volunteers :D
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Well that's the other problem I mentioned. I am not on discord 24/7, so I don't know if problems have been pointed out or not, as the HIP's don't allow for counter argument listing on the HIP's 😉
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no just keep it and remove the challenges rewards
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
Why nobody was speaking up about the 0.9 in the ama?
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add it to the 69.2
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
where it goes
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
It goes to validators
14:48
That’s pretty obvious
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it goes to validators
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
Lol
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:48 PM
i know that but why nobody was speaking up
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:49 PM
Because nobody should care
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I missed the AMA because it was sleeping time ^^
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:49 PM
so why we even talk ? 🙂
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:49 PM
It’s such a fractional amount of HNT that we shouldn’t even have to bring it up
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ow yeah lol why not do this keep it and give validators nothing for it since they aleardy wont loose something they dont get
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:49 PM
A hotspot earns around .001 hnt daily from challenges
14:49
It’s almost nothing.
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true
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:50 PM
i know that they say the once in an area without any other hs dont make any money anymore
14:50
that was there point
14:50
at the start if it helps you 🙂
14:50
then it got mixed up with votes are unfair and stuff
14:50
got a bit out of context hahah
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so would a hip that refers to keeping the rewards in the pool of WITTNESS AND BEACON the 0.9 and not giving validators anything for challenges get a chance ?
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cryptoz
so would a hip that refers to keeping the rewards in the pool of WITTNESS AND BEACON the 0.9 and not giving validators anything for challenges get a chance ?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:51 PM
At this point it doesn’t matter
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why not
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:51 PM
I dont think, cause it doesnt change it for the little once. and i dont are who it gets
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u mean we are late since votes are to hight
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:51 PM
no its not enough that care
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:52 PM
Because 1, it’s an obvious win, and 2, the whales who own the validators would like to keep the extra HNT
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:52 PM
as i stated befor lorawan is helium meaning you are supposed to make a network
14:52
a singel miner is no network
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clearly someone cares since its a mess everywhere about this topic
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:52 PM
you canot complain not getting challanges money anymore if you are not realy helping the network anyways
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not everyone is in it for the project
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:52 PM
and then its just where the little cents goes and nobody cares
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people invest to get money
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cryptoz
not everyone is in it for the project
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:53 PM
And those are the ones who do the worse
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:53 PM
thats why it has no chance imo to just change 0,009 to wonderland
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well cant blame people
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:53 PM
You have to think about providing coverage, which is good for the project, to earn well
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:53 PM
exactly. so basicly just vote yes
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yes but why would validators care about 0.9
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:53 PM
tldr
14:53
then you will be on the winner side ^^
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cryptoz
yes but why would validators care about 0.9
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:54 PM
Because servers can cost a lot to run, it’s like an extra bonus for them
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btw 1% is a lot for validators
14:54
i know ask me 😄
14:54
i love the idea btw
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Because servers can cost a lot to run, it’s like an extra bonus for them
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:54 PM
The network will get more stable becons this way, so the hole network every singel hs will own more
14:54
they just dont get it 🙂
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not against it thats why i didnt write a hip against it
14:54
its the best hip ever
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:55 PM
i dont care as long as you as a valiator do your job right and my hs get constantly challanged
14:55
and not a noob hs gets my challanged , it misses in the p2p world,
14:55
and i do nothing .. not even seeing it
14:56
then you happppply get the little cents for that job
14:56
❤️ thanks validators
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ur welcome 😄
14:56
but some validators dont do their job either just for ur info
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:56 PM
slashing !
14:56
make a hip ^^
14:56
money goes to hs owners
14:56
buhahahha
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:56 PM
We already have a point system
14:57
I think that’s enough
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
nah i like my idee, slashing and sharing with hs owners
14:57
why you dont like?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
Ohhh
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
❤️
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dead serious some validators are really not doing anything
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
Sharing with hotspot owners
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
siii
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
Sounds like a good idea
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
sharing the love
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I'd have to re-read into HNT creation on the network, but I doubt you magically start earning more HNT when more beacons in total are successful. It doesn't change the generated HNT, does it?
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cryptoz
dead serious some validators are really not doing anything
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:57 PM
Yep, saw one DMan pointed out, last 2 weeks nothing
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Ih8mypp
I'd have to re-read into HNT creation on the network, but I doubt you magically start earning more HNT when more beacons in total are successful. It doesn't change the generated HNT, does it?
Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:58 PM
well, you are right the amount of money stays obv the same that is shared
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Ih8mypp
I'd have to re-read into HNT creation on the network, but I doubt you magically start earning more HNT when more beacons in total are successful. It doesn't change the generated HNT, does it?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:58 PM
No, you get more rewards but so does everyone else, meaning less rewards per activity, I guess it cancels out
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this will and might also effect the blacklist update 😄
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 2:58 PM
The monthly limit stays at 2.5 million minted
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 2:58 PM
but there are enough noobs even with light hotspots
14:58
so a good config hotspot will earn more (edited)
14:59
cause i cant do anything about 0/0 and noobs p2p me
14:59
but a lot of hs owners could do a lot to make more money they will not do even after the hip so
14:59
i earn more
14:59
see ? katsching
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I have a hard time following your reasoning here
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:00 PM
ok you know why we do this light hotspot stuff?
15:00
cause the challanges dont work correct
15:00
they work really poorly
15:00
why, cause they are made from hs , that are really poorly connected to the internet
15:01
they will stay that way and dont get becons, but me, i will not get any FAIL becons anymore
15:01
so i will earn more
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I understand how the network and hotspots work, I understand there is an issue with the challenges that requires solving. I just don't follow you on why you think you'll be earning more when validators take over the task.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:01 PM
see above
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because in the end of the day there is the same amount of HNT, yes 0.9% shifts to validators
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:01 PM
cause i loose everday money cause of that
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So I don't get where you think you get the extras from
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:01 PM
you dont get the point yo dont read
15:02
slowly again .. i loose money today
15:02
cause of bad configured hotspots not making challing me
15:02
ok ?
15:02
no challanges i no becon = no money
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But the pie isn't getting larger, 0.9% of the pie just shifts away from you to the validators (edited)
15:03
no matter your reasoning, you're not going to profit of it
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:03 PM
lets just say you are wrong and someone better explaning
15:03
will tell you what i mean 🙂
15:03
i am 100% sure about what i say is correct i am affraid
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It's not a very convincing argument
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:04 PM
well i just know cause i do it loooong time
15:04
i just not good in explaning
15:05
if you reduse a mistake that only helps 20% of the ppl cuase the other 80 once have a different problem
15:05
then only the 20% will benefit correct?
15:06
a lot of ppl have no idee how to setup the miner correctly , it will not change with lighthotspots. so they will make no money ether way. but for me that i have all correct setup
15:06
i will get more becons, more challanges, cause my nabours get more becon , more of everything (edited)
15:06
so i make more , or i loose less, what i loose today vs a perfect simulated helium network (edited)
15:06
now?
15:07
it might even out the 0,0009 i give to the validators
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But they won't need to set it up 'correct' anymore, as the validators take away the problem. You will see more beacons, but so will everyone, and thus your reward per beacon will go down.
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Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:07 PM
it might not i have no idee
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Ih8mypp
But they won't need to set it up 'correct' anymore, as the validators take away the problem. You will see more beacons, but so will everyone, and thus your reward per beacon will go down.
Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:07 PM
antenna, high ? means nothing to you ?
15:07
oh dear ^^ (edited)
15:08
i go sleep ❤️ love you anways baba
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Ih8mypp
🧐
Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:10 PM
you are killing me how can you not see what i mean.
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Oh I perfectly understand what you are saying, I just don't think the result will be as you envision
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Ih8mypp
Oh I perfectly understand what you are saying, I just don't think the result will be as you envision
Deleted User 02/19/2022 3:29 PM
we will see ❤️ i am sure 😉 gn8
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Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 3:54 PM
I might be out of date but this goes toward centralized stuff. After i waited an year for my miner now all the things are moving to validators. Where the heck i pull out of the hat 300k to make one? How others im my situatetion will do the same?
15:58
Why couldnt be created something similar to validators with 10-100hnt stake to create these challenges so the less fortunate people would be able to join?
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deasydoesit 02/19/2022 4:07 PM
Guys and gals, I hope you understand that for $500, a well placed hotspot will earn more HNT / month than a $250k validator.
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16:13
So, if anything, given the network stability that validators provide and the corresponding increased earnings for hotspots that come with higher network uptime, validators should be earning more HNT 😜
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Paul Andrei
Why couldnt be created something similar to validators with 10-100hnt stake to create these challenges so the less fortunate people would be able to join?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:27 PM
Name something that can take the load
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Name something that can take the load
Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 4:28 PM
I did just below the original text
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:28 PM
Where?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Name something that can take the load
It could be the same VPS-type situation that run validators now. So for ~$100/mo (real validator range is probably $40-$300/month, the actual costs would depend on the actual software that gets written) and a stake you could run a "challenge node". To be clear, this doesn't exist now, but I see no reason it couldn't be just a VPS or dedicated server. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:45 PM
But
16:45
We basically already have that
16:45
With validators
16:45
._.
16:45
Why would anyone stake 100 HNT for this, when you could do it in a pool and contribute to actual validators and earn more (edited)
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Hi all - assuming hip 55 passes when is it expected to be implemented? Right after voting ends in a few days?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Why would anyone stake 100 HNT for this, when you could do it in a pool and contribute to actual validators and earn more (edited)
Because "it's the people's network" and people keep saying they want the opportunity to spin up a thing to keep these challenge rewards or maybe handle GRPC proxying, or something. I'm not really sure, but I keep seeing people here say this. I bet it's a combination of: * I know how to run a server, but don't have HNT. * I don't want to go to a custodial pool (there are no non-custodial pools) because I want control of my HNT. * I don't want someone else (staking pool vendor) to take a cut, especially since I have the skills. ^^^ These are all my assumptions, not an indication I agree or disagree with any of it. (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:49 PM
Yah, I don’t run a validator, idk what all this complaining is about the challenge rewards moving to validators (edited)
16:50
It’s so fractional it’s like nothing changed in your rewards
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jsettlage
Hi all - assuming hip 55 passes when is it expected to be implemented? Right after voting ends in a few days?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:51 PM
The code is already written
16:51
So assume quickly
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👍🏻 thanks
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:52 PM
We’ve been talking about light hotspots for a really really long time
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
It’s so fractional it’s like nothing changed in your rewards
I agree, but I have both hotspots and validators, so my motivations can't be trusted. I can't possibly be thinking about anything but more short term rewards for myself.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
The code is already written
I actually hope we get a few days to debate for a slightly different implementation details, where staked but non-CG validators do challenge creation instead of just CG members. At least one core team member seemed to think it wasn't awful.
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krby
I actually hope we get a few days to debate for a slightly different implementation details, where staked but non-CG validators do challenge creation instead of just CG members. At least one core team member seemed to think it wasn't awful.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:57 PM
Yah this doesn’t seem to bad tbh
16:57
Because a lot of validators sit and do nothing while the 43 are in cg
16:57
That’s a good idea
16:59
They should also kick out validators that don’t do anything for a long time.
16:59
I’ve seen a couple with 0 activity
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Because a lot of validators sit and do nothing while the 43 are in cg
see the comments in the HIP issue about it. It does two things: * Keeps a ton of hotspots in a hex from swarming a CG member who is busy with block production * Gives non-CG members incentive to accept and maintain gRPC connections (to get rewarded for challenge creation)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 4:59 PM
Why does the hexes matter with CG?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I’ve seen a couple with 0 activity
If a validator doesn't heartbeat within the last 150 blocks, it cannot be elected.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 5:00 PM
But
17:00
Why do hotspots matter?
17:01
And hexes
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krby
If a validator doesn't heartbeat within the last 150 blocks, it cannot be elected.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 5:01 PM
Says syncing I think
17:01
Or something
17:01
But my hotspot has been saying syncing for the last 2 weeks, even though it’s earning lol
17:01
Explorer so slow
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Why does the hexes matter with CG?
With this HIP, a CG member will be the challenge creator. All hotspots in a targeted hex get notified to go check if they are the ones being challenged. The way they check is all hotspots in a hex go do a new connection to the in-CG validator that created the challenge.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 5:03 PM
Oh
17:03
I see
17:03
So if there are too many in a hex
17:03
It can get annoying for the CG member
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17:03
And slow things down
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Says syncing I think
Ya, so any validator that is syncing is never elected already because it isn't heartbeating. No need to keep them out. That's just someone who has locked up a stake and not getting rewarded.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 5:04 PM
Thank you for the info
17:04
I’m still learning the more advanced stuff now, just barely finished the more in depth things about hotspots
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17:04
I’m trying to gain more knowledge about how everything works together
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Where?
Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:13 PM
Why cant be an option validators like for 10-100hnt stake so that the less fortunate people can join instead of centralizing everithing to validators. So we can had an option to get something out of it. So far i have waited 9 months for mi bobcats and 11 and still ongoing for raks. Due to afiliate manufacturers i had to lose like others here and yet everithing is delegating to validators. Don't get me wrong I believe in peoples network not validators network. Having it fair for us instead of delegating to validators. Poc chalengers could be made to run on a raspberry and preety much everyone could in house build one. Just a thought.
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There are several staking pools
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Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:15 PM
And wait 50 years to get for a validator ? (Best case scenario?)
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Paul Andrei
And wait 50 years to get for a validator ? (Best case scenario?)
No, he means partial staking pools. If you have 1HNT or 10HNT you can join a pool. Actually there may be minimums, you'd have to check with each vendor. (edited)
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Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:18 PM
I understand that. I am just bit upset with the hip55, not everyone has 300k $ for a validator, and hotspots becoming less and less favorable for the people.
17:18
Unfavorable*
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Poc chalengers could be made to run on a raspberry and preety much everyone could in house build one. Just a thought.
POC challengers on crap hardware at the other end of a crap residential ISP connection has many problems. It is something this HIP is explicitly trying to get away from.
17:19
not everyone has 300k $ for a validator
Agree! But if you have 100HNT (for one vendor, others may have lower minimums) you can participate in validator rewards. You can do this without going thru the trouble of being sysadmin and tearing your hair out (see my avatar) trying to decipher validator penalties and optimizing your setup.
(edited)
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Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:20 PM
Was an example. An htpc could do the trick if the network is open to debate. For 100£ an i5/i7 can be available. I have few running different projects with no issue.
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krby
not everyone has 300k $ for a validator
Agree! But if you have 100HNT (for one vendor, others may have lower minimums) you can participate in validator rewards. You can do this without going thru the trouble of being sysadmin and tearing your hair out (see my avatar) trying to decipher validator penalties and optimizing your setup.
(edited)
Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:21 PM
I wasn't aware of that, would you kindly share some info's /usefull links?
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Paul Andrei
Was an example. An htpc could do the trick if the network is open to debate. For 100£ an i5/i7 can be available. I have few running different projects with no issue.
Sure, but the residential ISP can still be a problem (as the current relaying and port forwarding issues show). There could be a new "challenge creation" node type with a low stake requirement, but I'd argue strongly it needs to be similar to validators in the cloud or datacenter.
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Paul Andrei
I understand that. I am just bit upset with the hip55, not everyone has 300k $ for a validator, and hotspots becoming less and less favorable for the people.
I’m not upset about this HIP55. It’s just a necessity. We have been talking about this for months. We knew this was coming. I wish people could understand that a functioning blockchain is way more critical than less than 1%. If I had to pay 10% to ensure a functioning blockchain that doesn’t crash with rapid growth, I would think it a bargain.
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Paul Andrei
I wasn't aware of that, would you kindly share some info's /usefull links?
Go look under the VENDORS-STAKING section of channels on this Discord server. Also, here's a link from the FAQ about validators: https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/validators/faqs-resources-providers/#staking-providers Both Capcom and I were trying to tell you this a few times. This is partial staking is open to anyone with HNT, as long as you meet the minimums the vendors require. Most vendors have a channel here, go ask questions, get a feel for them, see if you like one. (edited)
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Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:26 PM
Andrew, i do understand the necesity, from my view is that people that waited long time for the miners missed everithing because of manufacturing delay, and the hotspots bring pennies now. Unless doggy thing are done(against the network will), the rewards needs to somewhat acceptable for people to opt still be able to opt without wondering if it really take few years to get back the investments.
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krby
Sure, but the residential ISP can still be a problem (as the current relaying and port forwarding issues show). There could be a new "challenge creation" node type with a low stake requirement, but I'd argue strongly it needs to be similar to validators in the cloud or datacenter.
Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:26 PM
Thank you
17:30
Network still needs to grow
17:31
And sorry for my spelling mistakes above
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Atlas Dragon 02/19/2022 5:35 PM
How do we vote
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Paul Andrei
Andrew, i do understand the necesity, from my view is that people that waited long time for the miners missed everithing because of manufacturing delay, and the hotspots bring pennies now. Unless doggy thing are done(against the network will), the rewards needs to somewhat acceptable for people to opt still be able to opt without wondering if it really take few years to get back the investments.
I mean, an annual return of 25% is pretty fantastic in any investment, that would pay you back in 4 years. I know people have different expectations, but if I could get 25% in all my investments, I'd be done working someone else. (edited)
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krby
I mean, an annual return of 25% is pretty fantastic in any investment, that would pay you back in 4 years. I know people have different expectations, but if I could get 25% in all my investments, I'd be done working someone else. (edited)
Paul Andrei 02/19/2022 5:41 PM
It is, and i agree till hotspots like the one i have so far do ~ a dolar a day. Tbh i wait to see where this is going but prety munch i'll cancel the orders that i have from last march and havent been delivered yet.
17:42
Anyhow, thank you for all the info's guys you were great. I have to go to sleep now. Good night all
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half the strength 02/19/2022 6:52 PM
hip55 alrerady is passed. I just wonder what the excuse will be when we got network issues.
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half the strength 02/19/2022 7:02 PM
hip 55 vote 10000 hnt for no 2000000 hnt for yes
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 7:27 PM
So why would anyone buy a normal hotspot (bobcat MNTD SenseCap )? Seems Iike buying a lite hotspot is going to take over
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CryptoScotty49
So why would anyone buy a normal hotspot (bobcat MNTD SenseCap )? Seems Iike buying a lite hotspot is going to take over
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 7:32 PM
because by the time they deliver a lite hotspot, i'll be over 200$ into my profit, with r.o.i. covered. and that's not a top location that is a 2nd or 3rd tier location.
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 7:39 PM
You think year before launch of lite devices? They made it sound like it could be sooner
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CryptoScotty49
You think year before launch of lite devices? They made it sound like it could be sooner
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:43 PM
This code is basically already done
19:43
This HIP just needs to pass
19:44
Because without it we can’t have light hotspots
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CryptoScotty49
So why would anyone buy a normal hotspot (bobcat MNTD SenseCap )? Seems Iike buying a lite hotspot is going to take over
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:44 PM
Those manufacturers are already making light hotspots
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 7:44 PM
I’m just torn
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:44 PM
Bobcat was one of the first to apply
19:44
For light hotspot manufacturing
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 7:44 PM
That’s what I thought
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/19/2022 7:45 PM
Anyways, all full hotspots will be light hotspots software wise
19:45
Just a small price change
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 7:46 PM
I like the idea of the validators doing it , worried about the market getting saturated
19:48
Dense areas might get denser.
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CryptoScotty49
You think year before launch of lite devices? They made it sound like it could be sooner
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 7:55 PM
i was assuming a 6month or less target
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 8:19 PM
Yeah.. it’s crazy
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CryptoScotty49
Yeah.. it’s crazy
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/19/2022 8:27 PM
when you're in at the begining, there are always bumps in the road.
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Mr. Charlie 02/19/2022 8:44 PM
Question. Why are we bothering with a vote on this as it’s long been decided that this is happening? I’m all for this as it benefits the network, but I feel the vote is a waste of energy and feels like this is being misrepresented as a choice. I feel the same way about the vote for HIP 39… the people voted, but that doesn’t appear to matter. Why keep up the perception that this is a democracy? (edited)
👍 2
20:47
A major infrastructure change is coming to the @helium Network. It will scale coverage even more rapidly, eliminate syncing issues, and significantly improve reliability for applications and devices running on the Network. Let’s talk about Light Hotspots 🧵
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Mr. Charlie
Question. Why are we bothering with a vote on this as it’s long been decided that this is happening? I’m all for this as it benefits the network, but I feel the vote is a waste of energy and feels like this is being misrepresented as a choice. I feel the same way about the vote for HIP 39… the people voted, but that doesn’t appear to matter. Why keep up the perception that this is a democracy? (edited)
Just as with HIP39, the majority of voters were for
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half the strength
hip55 alrerady is passed. I just wonder what the excuse will be when we got network issues.
I doubt the network will ever be perfect, this is just one step towards improvement. There will definitely be future issues
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CryptoScotty49 02/19/2022 8:53 PM
How will rewards keep up with growth?
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capcom
Just as with HIP39, the majority of voters were for
Mr. Charlie 02/19/2022 9:01 PM
Yes, agree. However plans for light hotspots have been in the works for a loooong time. Manufacturers are already making the devices. Also, with HIP 39, the people voted for it, but it seems to be dead now. I’m just wondering why we’re spending effort on voting. (edited)
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Part of light hotspots working means they no longer perform the challenge creation role (and the rewards that go with it), so this HIP was always inevitable. Or some HIP like it
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capcom
Part of light hotspots working means they no longer perform the challenge creation role (and the rewards that go with it), so this HIP was always inevitable. Or some HIP like it
Max - Just Max 02/19/2022 9:44 PM
I still don't understand the "validators are stealing our rewards" argument people are making. 0.9% of rewards go to challenge construction before this HIP and after this HIP.
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Max - Just Max
I still don't understand the "validators are stealing our rewards" argument people are making. 0.9% of rewards go to challenge construction before this HIP and after this HIP.
Deleted User 02/20/2022 12:08 AM
There is nothing to understand it's human behaviour take away from them something doesn't matter what -> outcry (edited)
00:11
Let's be real for a second the most ppl didn't even read the hip or understand what's going on. They just read - 0.009 and they got all tired up
00:12
That's exactly why the vote system is good cause ppl that are ogs have normaly more token meaning are longer and more involved in the Projekt .. it's the same with public voting in real life where the lefts are dreaming from .. not going to happen
00:15
Ppl voting or want the same voting rights then others with more knowledge is just the wrong way . There has to be different ways I don't know one but maybe someone come up with one in the future
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 12:26 AM
but hey you can still buy 1,4 millionen hnt, and flip the vote 🙈 coolstory no biggy money where our opinion is ^^ (edited)
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DeadStock_LTD 02/20/2022 1:21 AM
I have two brand new hotspots that i planned to deploy this weekend, before finding out about this vote. Now I have no idea whether to deploy or sale, because this hardware will very soon be overkill for the network, and there is no clear road map of when legit sponsored light hotspots will be available to consumers. There's also a chance that the value of my full hotspot will tank once the vote passes.
01:22
I understand the need to make the network better, but this puts me in a shitty position with no clear direction
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:24 AM
May I ask why your bothered by full Vs light? Full hotspots convert to the light hotspot software (edited)
01:24
Just wondering :)
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Deleted User
Let's be real for a second the most ppl didn't even read the hip or understand what's going on. They just read - 0.009 and they got all tired up
You might want to stop frustrating the discussion by pretending people are dumb and uninformed
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Hi, why there is the option to vote about the light hotspots if they are already been planned to be deployed anyway?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
May I ask why your bothered by full Vs light? Full hotspots convert to the light hotspot software (edited)
DeadStock_LTD 02/20/2022 1:32 AM
I paid $700 for each of my new "full hotspots". I've heard that manufactured light hotspots going forward will be way cheaper due to the components needed to manufacture. So I assume it is overkill to deploy a device that cost me $700 when I can purchase a device that is cheaper in the future.
01:33
That is where the uncertainty lies. If HIP 55 passes, will I be able to purchase a light hotspot a week after, month, years?
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DeadStock_LTD
I paid $700 for each of my new "full hotspots". I've heard that manufactured light hotspots going forward will be way cheaper due to the components needed to manufacture. So I assume it is overkill to deploy a device that cost me $700 when I can purchase a device that is cheaper in the future.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:34 AM
Just to be clear they won't be that much cheaper fyi, there are applications in and their at the $300-400 mark (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Just to be clear they won't be that much cheaper fyi, there are applications in and their at the $300-400 mark (edited)
DeadStock_LTD 02/20/2022 1:34 AM
That is good info to know. Thanks
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:34 AM
We're probably talking months for light gateways, I'd be putting the fulls in and then any future purchases would be light (for me)
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Hey Neil can you please answer my question?
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solowbiz
Hey Neil can you please answer my question?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:37 AM
There is an economic change (0.9% of rewards in an epoch)
01:37
That's what this hip is for really
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Thanks, for sure I will gladly accept to give the 0,9 of my HNT to validators and avoid any relayed, sync, data usage ecc, however I still don't understand why miners have the opportunity to say yes or no to light hotspots if they are already ready to be used!?
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solowbiz
Thanks, for sure I will gladly accept to give the 0,9 of my HNT to validators and avoid any relayed, sync, data usage ecc, however I still don't understand why miners have the opportunity to say yes or no to light hotspots if they are already ready to be used!?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:42 AM
I think if the hip failed they would need to rethink the design of lgw and challenges , we wouldn't get light hotspots without it
01:43
55 looks like it's going through tho
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Howlinghells 02/20/2022 1:47 AM
Question on this. there are two phenomenons that will happen if I am correct. 1. More Offline hotspots going online and increasing witnesses of my current hotspot(good) 2. Finite rewards may be distributed to more hotspots (bad) Those are the two major general impacts I can think of unless someone can correct me?
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DeadStock_LTD 02/20/2022 1:47 AM
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io https://twitter.com/helium/status/1483211278696943617?s=20&t=6eX6G3nk3TDTnvvzwkbZgQ This is what gave me the impression that "light hotspots will be wayy cheaper". Just a month ago Helium claimed it will be sub $100.
Since Data-Only Hotspots were introduced, there's one more step until Light Hotspots come online: Milestone 3's completion ✅. This will allow for lower compute requirements for Hotspots. Learn more and stay up-to-date on the progress on @Helium Docs: https://t.co/pdlz6dFpXz. https://t.co/06TFEX6uah
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DeadStock_LTD
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io https://twitter.com/helium/status/1483211278696943617?s=20&t=6eX6G3nk3TDTnvvzwkbZgQ This is what gave me the impression that "light hotspots will be wayy cheaper". Just a month ago Helium claimed it will be sub $100.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:48 AM
Let me find you an application from a manufacturer
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DeadStock_LTD
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io https://twitter.com/helium/status/1483211278696943617?s=20&t=6eX6G3nk3TDTnvvzwkbZgQ This is what gave me the impression that "light hotspots will be wayy cheaper". Just a month ago Helium claimed it will be sub $100.
Since the lora concentrator alone is going to be 100$ and the onboarding will stay at 50$ a sub 100$ price point is unrealistic
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Ih8mypp
You might want to stop frustrating the discussion by pretending people are dumb and uninformed
Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:49 AM
never said that, i said the once crying out the loadest, not arguing at all just saying "VALIDATORS STEAL MONEY" are uninformed and they are . dont twist my words nice try tho ( taking stuff out of context always a good one ) (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:51 AM
Hub for Helium hotspot manfuacturer applications and the Manufacturer Oversight Committee (MOC) - hotspot-manufacturers/dragino-light-hotspot.md at main · dewi-alliance/hotspot-manufacturers
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01:51
Estimate price is about $150~$200 for HP0C depends on IC cost, price exclude Helium License.
01:52
So + onboarding and first location assert ontop of that
01:52
+ taxes + delivery
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Estimate price is about $150~$200 for HP0C depends on IC cost, price exclude Helium License.
Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:53 AM
thats only half a full one, secondmarket will do the same. its a no brainer even now buy a full hs 🙂
01:54
with the part that it will make cheaper hotspots i dont get behind so real the other technical reasons (p2p) wight a lot more imo (edited)
01:55
whats your opinion on cheaper lighthots @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io ? (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:55 AM
It's not like a pi uses a lot of electricity anyways
01:56
I won't be dumping mine for light, just if I get more I'd buy light
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
true its nothing ( i have some in an solar setup )
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
But I've brought some recently (full)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But I've brought some recently (full)
Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
same, even knowing this would come
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
I'd rather have a hotspot live now
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
cause of the hassel i get you
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
Than wait for light to go on sale and deliver
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:56 AM
jep cause we never know^^ (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 1:57 AM
The manufacturers haven't exactly been great at delivering so far
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:57 AM
oh really ? 😉 (edited)
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01:57
hihi
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Besides what Neil is correctly mentioning about delivery, sales price is not necessarily a function of the production cost. It is also dependent on what you are willing to pay for it and I assume a lot of manufacturers are going to put that advantage into their pocket, not yours. (edited)
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and if not them, scalpers might
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Howlinghells 02/20/2022 2:02 AM
Either wait or bot it, just my current experience on getting one msrp...wish the silicon shortage can end faster
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Howlinghells
Either wait or bot it, just my current experience on getting one msrp...wish the silicon shortage can end faster
Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:07 AM
End? it just started, in germany you wait 2 years for a new car. the used car market from mobile de is form 3.5 million cars down to 1 million cars ( europewide) (edited)
02:07
shit just startet ..
02:08
if you can get a miner,hs, whatever you call it, now, trust me ^^ (edited)
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Deleted User
End? it just started, in germany you wait 2 years for a new car. the used car market from mobile de is form 3.5 million cars down to 1 million cars ( europewide) (edited)
Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:08 AM
elon musk is soon ready with his tesla factory in germany
02:09
he will pump out electro cars like CRAZZZZZZZy
02:09
go figure what is needed ...
02:10
portugal will get the fabric for the batteriesparts ready by 2023 , and will ship millions of tons batterie stuff for the tesla to germany (edited)
02:12
Chips is the new gold 🪙 (edited)
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groot
Besides what Neil is correctly mentioning about delivery, sales price is not necessarily a function of the production cost. It is also dependent on what you are willing to pay for it and I assume a lot of manufacturers are going to put that advantage into their pocket, not yours. (edited)
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:20 AM
The CPU, Memory and Storage are only a part of the total price. Yes the price can get lower, but at the same time, enclosures, shipping and support stay the same.
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Another 5 days... another 7 (out of 10) beacons failed... another 76 (out of 185) witnesses lost... DIE P2P DIE!
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Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:23 AM
I think the biggest plus for the community (not so much for us) is that light hotspot software runs on a lot of the existing LoRa gateways since LoRa gateways themselves always had lighter hardware, so it’s easier for existing manufacturers to adapt light hotspot software into a light hotspot.
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Tim | LongAP
I think the biggest plus for the community (not so much for us) is that light hotspot software runs on a lot of the existing LoRa gateways since LoRa gateways themselves always had lighter hardware, so it’s easier for existing manufacturers to adapt light hotspot software into a light hotspot.
Most of the lora gateways were just openwrt with a small router-like cpu right? That's enough for a light hotspot. I calculated that the concentrator, cpu, etc would cost a bare minimum of 150-200$, excluding onboarding.
02:26
But the sub 100$ price point, which would be 40$ after onboarding is just, ehm, not possible.
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groot
Most of the lora gateways were just openwrt with a small router-like cpu right? That's enough for a light hotspot. I calculated that the concentrator, cpu, etc would cost a bare minimum of 150-200$, excluding onboarding.
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:26 AM
Yeah Linux of some sort yes
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groot
But the sub 100$ price point, which would be 40$ after onboarding is just, ehm, not possible.
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:29 AM
Yes, I have been calling out the misleading Helium marketing for months, 100 USD light hotspots including 50 USD onboarding fees are impossible. Your estimate on parts pricing is about right yes for a minimal indoor hotspot, but don’t forget all the costs around radio and DeWi certification and upcoming staking requirements for manufacturers. Helium is getting very expensive
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:30 AM
@Tim | LongAP are you familier with mango ? gl 300? i think they got the nano pi in it ? man they are close to producing energy 🙂 its crazy what they are able to do aswell, wireguard this and that, bridge wlan etc (edited)
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Deleted User
@Tim | LongAP are you familier with mango ? gl 300? i think they got the nano pi in it ? man they are close to producing energy 🙂 its crazy what they are able to do aswell, wireguard this and that, bridge wlan etc (edited)
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:31 AM
No they use a MIPS CPU in the GL-MT300N, same as we use in LongAP Light
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:32 AM
ah perfect then ^^
02:32
i love ❤️ so powerfull
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Tim | LongAP
Yes, I have been calling out the misleading Helium marketing for months, 100 USD light hotspots including 50 USD onboarding fees are impossible. Your estimate on parts pricing is about right yes for a minimal indoor hotspot, but don’t forget all the costs around radio and DeWi certification and upcoming staking requirements for manufacturers. Helium is getting very expensive
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:32 AM
Since Data-Only Hotspots were introduced, there's one more step until Light Hotspots come online: Milestone 3's completion ✅. This will allow for lower compute requirements for Hotspots. Learn more and stay up-to-date on the progress on @Helium Docs: https://t.co/pdlz6dFpXz. https://t.co/06TFEX6uah
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Deleted User
i love ❤️ so powerfull
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 2:32 AM
Powerful enough but not too powerful
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:33 AM
great inside that you will use them thanks ( didnt knew.. always learning ) (edited)
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Did i get that hip right : maybe ive been waiting months for a device that finally will arrive in a while, plug it in on my location ( maybe not the best one ) and what could happen would be that a validator choose a other hotspot in my area to do the operations because of the better location, so i will basically get screwed down because my location is not the best for providing that much coverage. Appreciate any answer, thanks
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mineHNT
Did i get that hip right : maybe ive been waiting months for a device that finally will arrive in a while, plug it in on my location ( maybe not the best one ) and what could happen would be that a validator choose a other hotspot in my area to do the operations because of the better location, so i will basically get screwed down because my location is not the best for providing that much coverage. Appreciate any answer, thanks
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 2:56 AM
Nope, targeting stays similar (hip54 changes it a bit) so you'll still beacon 3 times a day (current PoC rate)
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mineHNT
Did i get that hip right : maybe ive been waiting months for a device that finally will arrive in a while, plug it in on my location ( maybe not the best one ) and what could happen would be that a validator choose a other hotspot in my area to do the operations because of the better location, so i will basically get screwed down because my location is not the best for providing that much coverage. Appreciate any answer, thanks
Deleted User 02/20/2022 2:59 AM
i recon you could ask the same question just in the hip 54 channel 👍 🙂 as Neil said the little change about that part is in there (h54) (edited)
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What manufacturer do you guys think it's gonna relesease the true light hotspots first ?
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Bobcat/sensecap
04:24
How long do you guys expect until this is implemented after voting ends?
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I talked with my tax advisor who said if HIP 55 passes I will no longer hold the ledger and therefore accordingly to IRS CC:PA:LPD:PR (Notice 2014-21) am not considered a miner. He does not know the tax related ramifications yet. Has anyone looked into this?
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Presumably that is something PoW miners have to deal with often as pool miners don't tend to hold the ledger, so it's probably dealt with somewhere?
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Will light hotspots require the same setup? So an external aerial works better than indoor is this soon to be irrelevant?
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Y’all are crazy supporting HIP55. Earnings have steadily decreased (down 20-30%) over the last few months, and no, not from the increase in miners as the math doesn’t add up. Now they’re going to give more rewards to validators and even less to miners. Vote no for HIP55. And before you say it’s about the network not the earnings, think about where the network would be if there weren’t any earnings.
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06:43
Also remember they just arbitrarily reduced the number of daily beacons without a HIP. “People’s Network”… which “people” are we talking about?
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We also increased the number of beacons without a HIP
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jvan
Y’all are crazy supporting HIP55. Earnings have steadily decreased (down 20-30%) over the last few months, and no, not from the increase in miners as the math doesn’t add up. Now they’re going to give more rewards to validators and even less to miners. Vote no for HIP55. And before you say it’s about the network not the earnings, think about where the network would be if there weren’t any earnings.
I support this HIP cause it’s a no brainer for me. Hmmm. A functioning blockchain at a cost of 0.9% vs a blockchain that frequently halts due to growth. Perhaps I am missing something important. If so, please share. (edited)
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The 0.9% reward should shift to miners in low coverage areas instead of to validators who already get a steady 6%
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0.9% is 0.0375 HNT per hotspot per month at the current network size. Is it really meaningful? (edited)
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If you want to improve network coverage, yes
07:22
and your calculation is for all hotspots, I argue to shift it to low coverage areas
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Feels irrelevant to me. I’d rather figure out how to tweak the HIP15/17 variables to better reward new coverage areas
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validators are the rich kids, they don't need another bump
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That's not the numbers I see on the staking pools
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Ih8mypp
validators are the rich kids, they don't need another bump
Generally when work moves from one place to another, the incentive to do that work moves with it.
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krby
Generally when work moves from one place to another, the incentive to do that work moves with it.
I understand the feeling off loss, but incentivizing people to do something is how you help ensure they do it.
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I wonder what implications this has on the blockchain itself, seems to be much easier to hijack it when its suddenly from thousands of devices to a limited few
07:36
but I must admit I haven't read up on that part yet
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One thing I know for sure, and I truly hope helium team never forget.Without an kind of incentive for those who don't have 20 , 40 or plus miners which are probably 90 % of the network, the network will end... (edited)
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Ih8mypp
I wonder what implications this has on the blockchain itself, seems to be much easier to hijack it when its suddenly from thousands of devices to a limited few
Validators already produce blocks. There is no bigger power on the blockchain. The algorithm to run a consensus group tries very hard to be resilient to attack (just like it was when CG was on hotspots) Why would you were about challenge creation being taken over more than actually producing blocks?
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The Roi are becoming lower and lower and lower, to the point werre eventually no one will care about the network...
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Oh valid point. As I mentioned, I hadn't read up on that, question just popped up in my head.
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capcom
0.9% is 0.0375 HNT per hotspot per month at the current network size. Is it really meaningful? (edited)
that is not correct though, is it? HS earn 26% of the generated HNT, including reward for generating challenges. If you remove 0.9 ppt from it you effectively reduce the HS reward by 3.6%. That would be 0.13392 per HS per month, assuming 0.12HNT/day in average per HS. (edited)
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07:41
that are around 1.6 HNT/year and HS. with the current exchange rate that would be 40$/year and HS.
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GCC
One thing I know for sure, and I truly hope helium team never forget.Without an kind of incentive for those who don't have 20 , 40 or plus miners which are probably 90 % of the network, the network will end... (edited)
I have a handful of hotspots and I still think the investment is worth it. But that's my own judgement. We all have to make our own. I think people's expectations of ROI are WAY outsized compared to the real world. Example numbers: $500 hotspot is about 25HNT right now. Assume 0.05HNT per day, that pays off in 400 days. The network average right now is around 0.14HNT per day? An investment that pays off in less than a year in a half is FANTASTIC compared to other things you could do with your money. Personally, I'm seeing 0.1HNT per day for hotspots that are "ok placement, not awful". Even split 50/50 with a host, I pay off the equipment in 2 years (including antennas, shipping and such). I really should try harder on a few of them, but that's not where I'm spending my time. (edited)
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Testa
that is not correct though, is it? HS earn 26% of the generated HNT, including reward for generating challenges. If you remove 0.9 ppt from it you effectively reduce the HS reward by 3.6%. That would be 0.13392 per HS per month, assuming 0.12HNT/day in average per HS. (edited)
I’m not sure what this math is - take 0.9% of 2.5M and that’s the amount of HNT created that no longer will go to hotspots
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@GCC what was your expected payback timeframe when you bought a hotspot? Where did those expectations come from? What is it now? I assume it took a while to ship because of all the delays we're going through. (edited)
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krby
I have a handful of hotspots and I still think the investment is worth it. But that's my own judgement. We all have to make our own. I think people's expectations of ROI are WAY outsized compared to the real world. Example numbers: $500 hotspot is about 25HNT right now. Assume 0.05HNT per day, that pays off in 400 days. The network average right now is around 0.14HNT per day? An investment that pays off in less than a year in a half is FANTASTIC compared to other things you could do with your money. Personally, I'm seeing 0.1HNT per day for hotspots that are "ok placement, not awful". Even split 50/50 with a host, I pay off the equipment in 2 years (including antennas, shipping and such). I really should try harder on a few of them, but that's not where I'm spending my time. (edited)
At the moment the trend is more hotspots and lower HNT price, so it'll cut on both ends
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krby
@GCC what was your expected payback timeframe when you bought a hotspot? Where did those expectations come from? What is it now? I assume it took a while to ship because of all the delays we're going through. (edited)
I started in August least year, with an average of 1.2 hnt/day
07:47
And to be honest I haven't any ROI in mind (edited)
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capcom
I’m not sure what this math is - take 0.9% of 2.5M and that’s the amount of HNT created that no longer will go to hotspots
I think it would be 2500000*0.009/(586768*0.768) = 0.05 HNT (takes into account offline hotspots).
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Ih8mypp
At the moment the trend is more hotspots and lower HNT price, so it'll cut on both ends
Ya, but it's USD price was always known to be volatile (at least for anyone who looked at charts) and I'm not going to talk more about that because of the #rules
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capcom
I’m not sure what this math is - take 0.9% of 2.5M and that’s the amount of HNT created that no longer will go to hotspots
now I am confused. If 26% of the 2.5M HNT/month go to HS (as per HIP20) that would be 650k HNT/month for the HS. With 600k HS that would be 1.08HNT/month in average. That would result in an average earning per HS of 0.036 HNT/day? where is the mistake? (edited)
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But with the recent increasing of HS the ROi will be longer, to the point were is not worth anymore to get an HS. But Will see... ( Sorry for the offtopic ) (edited)
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Ultimately you have to run the network by earning on the data transfer as the idea is that every ones their flowerpot and what not should be using LoRa for whatever reason. So whatever you do, you want to stimulate hotspot coverage to deal with the chicken and the egg problem. (edited)
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GCC
But with the recent increasing of HS the ROi will be longer, to the point were is not worth anymore to get an HS. But Will see... ( Sorry for the offtopic ) (edited)
This is where we disagree. What is "worth it"? My ham-fisted match above shows a worse-than-average hotspot paying itself off in less than 2 years. IMO, that's a fantastic payoff timeline for low amount (compared to starting a business or other investments) If "worth it" = "crazy cash cow to the moon! because crypto" then no, that's not guaranteed just by plugging in a device and letting it sit on a table" in fact, it's not even guaranteed by putting in some effort. It's all a bet, sometimes somewhat educated bet. (edited)
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Testa
now I am confused. If 26% of the 2.5M HNT/month go to HS (as per HIP20) that would be 650k HNT/month for the HS. With 600k HS that would be 1.08HNT/month in average. That would result in an average earning per HS of 0.036 HNT/day? where is the mistake? (edited)
I dont know why you’re looking at the % that goes to hotspots. Just take 0.9% of the total 2.5M per month, that’s the end of the calculation you need to do
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capcom
I dont know why you’re looking at the % that goes to hotspots. Just take 0.9% of the total 2.5M per month, that’s the end of the calculation you need to do
Trying to validate my calculation. And the calculation of the average reward per HS. I understand your calculation and it makes sense (and is prettier than mine). But where does the discrepancy come from? The Explorer shows something around 0.12 HNT/day and HS as average
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Testa
Trying to validate my calculation. And the calculation of the average reward per HS. I understand your calculation and it makes sense (and is prettier than mine). But where does the discrepancy come from? The Explorer shows something around 0.12 HNT/day and HS as average
You aren’t accounting from the unused DC data from HIP10
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GCC
But with the recent increasing of HS the ROi will be longer, to the point were is not worth anymore to get an HS. But Will see... ( Sorry for the offtopic ) (edited)
People have always said this and will always say this. Even when people earned 10,000 HNT/day
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krby
This is where we disagree. What is "worth it"? My ham-fisted match above shows a worse-than-average hotspot paying itself off in less than 2 years. IMO, that's a fantastic payoff timeline for low amount (compared to starting a business or other investments) If "worth it" = "crazy cash cow to the moon! because crypto" then no, that's not guaranteed just by plugging in a device and letting it sit on a table" in fact, it's not even guaranteed by putting in some effort. It's all a bet, sometimes somewhat educated bet. (edited)
Agree! But no one invests to have minimal returns, or almost inexistent.And then are those who only care about the network and in his practicality side ( which for me is the most important ) (edited)
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capcom
You aren’t accounting from the unused DC data from HIP10
true, I missed that the average includes data.. Thanks! (edited)
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capcom
People have always said this and will always say this. Even when people earned 10,000 HNT/day
Do you think people will support massively the network without earning something ? (edited)
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GCC
Agree! But no one invests to have minimal returns, or almost inexistent.And then are those who only care about the network and in his practicality side ( which for me is the most important ) (edited)
Right, but IMO (totally opinion) there's a lot of unrealistic expectations on what a reasonable return is for no or low effort hotspots. Folks like (I think from what you've said) aren't in that group, but a ton of people are, unfortunately. Ultimately, we're supposed to be incentivized to provide the best coverage. I think if the work of challenge creation is moving (to enable light hotspots) we need to incentivize that work. I also think we need changes to help incentivize early lone wolf deployments, but that's best done with the PoC reward system
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The average return for a miner with eventually begin to fluctuate around an equilibrium that is similar to other investment classes, maybe 10-20%. At that point, only the best setups and miners in areas with high demand for LoRa will earn much. It is inevitable. People who are complaining right now about their 200-300% ROI are in for a shock. (edited)
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GCC
Do you think people will support massively the network without earning something ? (edited)
The point is that people have complained about earnings and how they will inevitably become “not worth it” since august 1st 2019 when the first hotspot was in a customers hands. Back then you earned 10,000+ per day, but HNT had no value. Like this seems incredible now, but seemed awful to this user at the time: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/404106811252408322/745749462768418856 (edited)
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AndrewsMD
I support this HIP cause it’s a no brainer for me. Hmmm. A functioning blockchain at a cost of 0.9% vs a blockchain that frequently halts due to growth. Perhaps I am missing something important. If so, please share. (edited)
What you’re missing is the steady decline in returns outside of miner growth. It’s 0.9 in HIP55, plus the 20% everyone has been down since late November, plus the change in frequency of beacons without a HIP. It’s a cumulative effect where miners, including myself, are seeing dwindling earnings and I’m starting to question these proposals that erode earnings even more. As you should as well.
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jvan
What you’re missing is the steady decline in returns outside of miner growth. It’s 0.9 in HIP55, plus the 20% everyone has been down since late November, plus the change in frequency of beacons without a HIP. It’s a cumulative effect where miners, including myself, are seeing dwindling earnings and I’m starting to question these proposals that erode earnings even more. As you should as well.
You keep mentioning the change of beacons without a HIP, but this has always been the case. It’s a performance variable that will always have to be adjusted in order to keep the network functioning. We’ve adjusted it both up and down literally dozens of times. And will again. It’s not some rogue or unusual event
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capcom
The point is that people have complained about earnings and how they will inevitably become “not worth it” since august 1st 2019 when the first hotspot was in a customers hands. Back then you earned 10,000+ per day, but HNT had no value. Like this seems incredible now, but seemed awful to this user at the time: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/404106811252408322/745749462768418856 (edited)
adding the 0.9% to the validators increases their share of the total HNT minted by nearly 20%. Does the network really want to spend 6% of its revenue for validators? At the moment I'd argue there are more validators than necessary. By increasing their reward their number will continue to grow..
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Testa
adding the 0.9% to the validators increases their share of the total HNT minted by nearly 20%. Does the network really want to spend 6% of its revenue for validators? At the moment I'd argue there are more validators than necessary. By increasing their reward their number will continue to grow..
I’d argue 6% is far too low for such a critical network function. Remember the rewards are split among the validators, so as they grow the per-earnings shrink
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jvan
What you’re missing is the steady decline in returns outside of miner growth. It’s 0.9 in HIP55, plus the 20% everyone has been down since late November, plus the change in frequency of beacons without a HIP. It’s a cumulative effect where miners, including myself, are seeing dwindling earnings and I’m starting to question these proposals that erode earnings even more. As you should as well.
the change of the beaconing frequency does not change the total HS reward. Neither do beacons with 0 witnesses due to misconfigured challengers. There is always the same amount if HNT to be distributed and over time it averages out
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Testa
adding the 0.9% to the validators increases their share of the total HNT minted by nearly 20%. Does the network really want to spend 6% of its revenue for validators? At the moment I'd argue there are more validators than necessary. By increasing their reward their number will continue to grow..
Unfortunately, the validators are already critically underpaid for the service they provide. Most networks give 100% to the validators, but Helium only gives 6%. This will need to be addressed in the coming years to maintain the network’s consensus security
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capcom
You keep mentioning the change of beacons without a HIP, but this has always been the case. It’s a performance variable that will always have to be adjusted in order to keep the network functioning. We’ve adjusted it both up and down literally dozens of times. And will again. It’s not some rogue or unusual event
I understand that but I also understand you completely ignoring the erosion of earnings we’re all seeing. Huge percentages, and now 55 is just a little bit more. And the next HIP may be a little bit more. At what point do people unplug and then there is no network if this continues?
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Yep, Helium's security is far lower than other PoS networks because the share given to validators is so much lower.
08:12
At 5%, validation is not really an enticing prospect
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jvan
I understand that but I also understand you completely ignoring the erosion of earnings we’re all seeing. Huge percentages, and now 55 is just a little bit more. And the next HIP may be a little bit more. At what point do people unplug and then there is no network if this continues?
If you want to unplug, please offer it for sale here. (Is this allowed by the #rules?) I'll buy it.
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Testa
the change of the beaconing frequency does not change the total HS reward. Neither do beacons with 0 witnesses due to misconfigured challengers. There is always the same amount if HNT to be distributed and over time it averages out
Over what period of time are you referring? You’re going to tell me that somewhere along the line my earnings are going to bounce back the 20% we’ve been down for months? Not likely.
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jvan
I understand that but I also understand you completely ignoring the erosion of earnings we’re all seeing. Huge percentages, and now 55 is just a little bit more. And the next HIP may be a little bit more. At what point do people unplug and then there is no network if this continues?
It’s inevitable and has always been inevitable. I’m only ignoring it because it’s been constant for almost 3 years and will continue to be constant. People will have to make their own decisions about whether the proposition is worth it. I don’t think trading 0.0375 HNT/mo for a vastly better network for pretty much all participants is relevant or worth debating. But that’s just my opinion
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krby
If you want to unplug, please offer it for sale here. (Is this allowed by the #rules?) I'll buy it.
I don’t want to unplug. I want to stop the decreasing earnings so no one has to questions unplugging.
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rawrmaan
Unfortunately, the validators are already critically underpaid for the service they provide. Most networks give 100% to the validators, but Helium only gives 6%. This will need to be addressed in the coming years to maintain the network’s consensus security
They can't be underpaid because if they would be, the number of validators would decrease. In other networks (which ones do you mean?) validators have a key role. With Helium, the HS have at least an equally critical role.
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Testa
the change of the beaconing frequency does not change the total HS reward. Neither do beacons with 0 witnesses due to misconfigured challengers. There is always the same amount if HNT to be distributed and over time it averages out
Thanks for pointing this out, I made this mistake in an argument earlier. Hotspots overall won't earn more because of fewer PoC failure" but really these failures just distribute that HNT to the non-failed PoCs. So some hotspots will earn more (arguably be brought back to what they "should be" in an ideal model of the network)
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jvan
I don’t want to unplug. I want to stop the decreasing earnings so no one has to questions unplugging.
People will have to make a decision on whether to unplug though. That is how mining works across all consensus mechanisms. Proof of work miners also need to make these same decisions based on network competition, available rewards, and the cost of energy. Buying a miner does not entitle you to a solid income for life, it's a competition.
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capcom
It’s inevitable and has always been inevitable. I’m only ignoring it because it’s been constant for almost 3 years and will continue to be constant. People will have to make their own decisions about whether the proposition is worth it. I don’t think trading 0.0375 HNT/mo for a vastly better network for pretty much all participants is relevant or worth debating. But that’s just my opinion
Right. .0375/mo until the next HIP where earnings decrease again. There’s a pattern here the last few months and im not the only one who noticed it. Drastic decreases in rewards and now this is just a litttttle bit more.
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krby
Thanks for pointing this out, I made this mistake in an argument earlier. Hotspots overall won't earn more because of fewer PoC failure" but really these failures just distribute that HNT to the non-failed PoCs. So some hotspots will earn more (arguably be brought back to what they "should be" in an ideal model of the network)
in the long run (i.e. a few days I guess) it should even out. because the probability that only your HS gets misconfigured challenger and others not is extremely small
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jvan
I don’t want to unplug. I want to stop the decreasing earnings so no one has to questions unplugging.
People have been questioning unplugging since the earnings were 100HNT per day and dropped to 10HNT per day. It's a little hard to believe it's going to happen now, tbh. I know there has to be some limit, maybe the cost of electricity per day or something, but given alternatives places to put money to work, it's still a good deal.
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jvan
Right. .0375/mo until the next HIP where earnings decrease again. There’s a pattern here the last few months and im not the only one who noticed it. Drastic decreases in rewards and now this is just a litttttle bit more.
Again, it’s always been this way and will always be this way. The network changes and evolves and earnings change with it. If consistency is the expectation you will continue to be upset about earnings. After HIP55 and light hotspots are launched (assuming it passes) the cost of operating a hotspot is very close to zero. The only reason to unplug would be to sell to someone else, which from the networks point of view is fine too. It’s really a personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer
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If Helium has any problem here at all, it's not with earnings, it's with setting the right expectations, because the response to falling rewards suggests people have wildly unrealistic expectations going into it.
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AlexC
If Helium has any problem here at all, it's not with earnings, it's with setting the right expectations, because the response to falling rewards suggests people have wildly unrealistic expectations going into it.
I think that has more to do with YouTubers who are promoting the network with hyperbolic language unfortunately. Idk how to counteract that when those 'tubers have such large audiences. I'm trying to do my part by growing my educational Helium content on YT but it's gonna be a tough road. (edited)
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Unfortunately hotspots today require more maintenance than they should (which is exactly what this HIP aims to address). Once you literally set it and forget it my hope is that it will feel less burdensome and expectations will change with it. But that’s optimistic
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AlexC
People will have to make a decision on whether to unplug though. That is how mining works across all consensus mechanisms. Proof of work miners also need to make these same decisions based on network competition, available rewards, and the cost of energy. Buying a miner does not entitle you to a solid income for life, it's a competition.
...and the validators have this same decision to make. It's the same model. Is running a validator for an 5.37% APR (based on the stake) before operational expenses (which end up being 4-8HNT right now) worth it? The HNT is locked up for ~5months, so there's some serious exposure to market fluctuations. Some folks think this is worth is, others do not. We still have ~3400 staked validators, it seems to be incentivized well, but if the APR keeps going low, or the operational costs are above the APR, then some validators will unplug too. (edited)
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krby
...and the validators have this same decision to make. It's the same model. Is running a validator for an 5.37% APR (based on the stake) before operational expenses (which end up being 4-8HNT right now) worth it? The HNT is locked up for ~5months, so there's some serious exposure to market fluctuations. Some folks think this is worth is, others do not. We still have ~3400 staked validators, it seems to be incentivized well, but if the APR keeps going low, or the operational costs are above the APR, then some validators will unplug too. (edited)
Funny you should mention that, because I've already been forced to make that decision myself https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/857353417739730954/926225340551020544
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Testa
They can't be underpaid because if they would be, the number of validators would decrease. In other networks (which ones do you mean?) validators have a key role. With Helium, the HS have at least an equally critical role.
I mean, Solana, ETH (2.0), Cardano, Tezos, Algorand...nearly any PoS network. The # of validators decreasing would be bad because that would decrease the difficulty of a sybil attack on consensus. There isn't much validator attrition yet since it's 5 months to unstake with no rewards, but it will become a real problem starting in Aug 2023 (next halving) and a critical problem starting in Aug 2025 if nothing changes.
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AlexC
Funny you should mention that, because I've already been forced to make that decision myself https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/857353417739730954/926225340551020544
I didn't want to out you specifically, but you commenting here is what made me think of it.
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Helium has some of the highest validator node counts of any pos network (maybe not eth 2.0). It will be interesting to watch over time
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Node count isn't a meaningful metric IMO, particularly as most networks are DPoS. Hell, I'm running 4 on one server simply because I cannot overstake. The important thing is the percentage of staked supply, and that is where Helium is lagging.
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Disagree strongly with this comment but we’re getting far off topic 😅
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I'd love to have that conversation another time because it's something I feel quite strongly about
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rawrmaan
I mean, Solana, ETH (2.0), Cardano, Tezos, Algorand...nearly any PoS network. The # of validators decreasing would be bad because that would decrease the difficulty of a sybil attack on consensus. There isn't much validator attrition yet since it's 5 months to unstake with no rewards, but it will become a real problem starting in Aug 2023 (next halving) and a critical problem starting in Aug 2025 if nothing changes.
I don't know all of them in detail but for ETH validators would be the only core function, the one that creates value.? Helium is different, because the HS are the ones that create value.
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It’s why we went for the original hotspot consensus model. Just can’t scale it unfortunately, at least not in this network design
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Testa
I don't know all of them in detail but for ETH validators would be the only core function, the one that creates value.? Helium is different, because the HS are the ones that create value.
That's exactly right. Hotspots are the most important network participants to incentivize, so there is a unique problem with Helium where in order to maintain the network's security by incentivizing validators, tradeoffs need to be made
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capcom
It’s why we went for the original hotspot consensus model. Just can’t scale it unfortunately, at least not in this network design
would be too much research requited I guess. would have been awesome though
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That it worked as well as it did for so long is pretty remarkable
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@capcom what i really dont understand is that if this hip Go trough solo miners will be screwed totally down with this hip that challenges move to validators, if there is no other hotspots around to witness then the only rewards are challenges and if you got a good setup you are providing coverage for that area, thats the main thing helium wants to do as they say , providing coverage for their customers etc. and i think it should be world wide not just in big citys or stuffed areas , if somebody is alone in an area and providing coverage why dont reward them ? Just my opinion hope i have explained it well, appreciate any answer on that thx
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mineHNT
@capcom what i really dont understand is that if this hip Go trough solo miners will be screwed totally down with this hip that challenges move to validators, if there is no other hotspots around to witness then the only rewards are challenges and if you got a good setup you are providing coverage for that area, thats the main thing helium wants to do as they say , providing coverage for their customers etc. and i think it should be world wide not just in big citys or stuffed areas , if somebody is alone in an area and providing coverage why dont reward them ? Just my opinion hope i have explained it well, appreciate any answer on that thx
If you’re the only hotspot around you’re kind of screwed already. You’re only earning 0.0375 HNT per month or there abouts. I don’t think this HIP meaningfully changes the equation around whether new coverage areas are properly incentivized
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You're giving extra HNT to a group that holds all voting power. You'll never be able to get it back to rectify the mistake.
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Ih8mypp
You're giving extra HNT to a group that holds all voting power. You'll never be able to get it back to rectify the mistake.
It's funny to see this brought up over and over. More than 70% of the network's total rewards (lifetime) have gone to hotspot owners. So the group you're referring to is mostly hotspot owners who have earned enough to stake validators.
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its still a very marginal group
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You're not wrong. If we want to give more voting power to smaller players, there are proposals out there, like #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2
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capcom
If you’re the only hotspot around you’re kind of screwed already. You’re only earning 0.0375 HNT per month or there abouts. I don’t think this HIP meaningfully changes the equation around whether new coverage areas are properly incentivized
Yeah of course i understand that but if the goal is coverage then even solo miners should be better rewarded by providing coverage i think , i dont know just my opinion if you want a global coverage world wide
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capcom
Again, it’s always been this way and will always be this way. The network changes and evolves and earnings change with it. If consistency is the expectation you will continue to be upset about earnings. After HIP55 and light hotspots are launched (assuming it passes) the cost of operating a hotspot is very close to zero. The only reason to unplug would be to sell to someone else, which from the networks point of view is fine too. It’s really a personal decision and there is no right or wrong answer
First, it’s always been that way has never been a good answer. Additionally, people speaking out against HIP 55 aren’t wrong to do so. It’s another decrease in earnings, albeit, minimal this time around. You should be looking for ways to further reward the miners instead of reducing rewards.
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mineHNT
Yeah of course i understand that but if the goal is coverage then even solo miners should be better rewarded by providing coverage i think , i dont know just my opinion if you want a global coverage world wide
Totally agree, I just don’t think it’s related to this HIP. There’s some good discussion about changing some of the 15/17 variables which might help
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jvan
First, it’s always been that way has never been a good answer. Additionally, people speaking out against HIP 55 aren’t wrong to do so. It’s another decrease in earnings, albeit, minimal this time around. You should be looking for ways to further reward the miners instead of reducing rewards.
No one’s wrong to speak out about anything, I just don’t agree with the thrust of the objections. Miners already earn 61% of rewards this year and 62% next year, etc. If you have good suggestions please make them, but moving the rewards for challenge creation to the group that actually creates the challenges feels correct to me
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capcom
Totally agree, I just don’t think it’s related to this HIP. There’s some good discussion about changing some of the 15/17 variables which might help
In one way it is because Challenges are the only rewards for solo miners , but lets see how all that play out
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jvan
First, it’s always been that way has never been a good answer. Additionally, people speaking out against HIP 55 aren’t wrong to do so. It’s another decrease in earnings, albeit, minimal this time around. You should be looking for ways to further reward the miners instead of reducing rewards.
This change will increase rewards for a massive percentage of miners who are having p2p network issues for issues beyond their control. And for everyone else, the miners I'm speaking of are the ones that you witness, and the ones that witness you, so you'll have more consistent witnessing activity. Miners have a lot to gain from this HIP. More importantly, we all have a lot to gain if the network is substantially more stable. It becomes more resilient for its actual use case, which is transferring data. This will increase the confidence of device makers who are deploying Helium-powered hardware and make the network more successful in the long run. Nobody wins if we don't get usage on the network.
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There’s also not necessarily a correlation with more HNT going to miners and earnings increasing. For example if it caused more market selling pressure then net earnings would go down (edited)
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rawrmaan
This change will increase rewards for a massive percentage of miners who are having p2p network issues for issues beyond their control. And for everyone else, the miners I'm speaking of are the ones that you witness, and the ones that witness you, so you'll have more consistent witnessing activity. Miners have a lot to gain from this HIP. More importantly, we all have a lot to gain if the network is substantially more stable. It becomes more resilient for its actual use case, which is transferring data. This will increase the confidence of device makers who are deploying Helium-powered hardware and make the network more successful in the long run. Nobody wins if we don't get usage on the network.
that is not true though. miners will get less rewards. whether the rewards are more consistent or not does not really matter I think, because if you take the average over a week or so it is rather consistent already. and if that is true what you are saying and more hotspots will come online/have fewer issues that means the average rewards would further reduce.
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The part about usage is absolutely true though
08:56
Being able to deploy hotspots with minimal bandwidth and downtime is a huge deal. The syncing problems today are an absolute nightmare for reliability
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when that gets solved as @Testa said, the average reward will be reduced drastically
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capcom
Being able to deploy hotspots with minimal bandwidth and downtime is a huge deal. The syncing problems today are an absolute nightmare for reliability
I don't think that part of the HIP is controversial, it is the reward redistribution part 😉
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DikeiDk
when that gets solved as @Testa said, the average reward will be reduced drastically
I don’t think we can keep the network in a crippled state just to keep some hotspot earnings higher than others. But I understand the point about rewards distribution
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Testa
that is not true though. miners will get less rewards. whether the rewards are more consistent or not does not really matter I think, because if you take the average over a week or so it is rather consistent already. and if that is true what you are saying and more hotspots will come online/have fewer issues that means the average rewards would further reduce.
For the people who are currently getting next to nothing because their internet is too slow or their device can’t keep up with p2p activity, it doesn’t average out. They just get screwed. And yes, this will be a reward reduction on average. But a justified one I think.
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I digress for a moment in support of Ukraine. Wish there was more that we could do, but that’s out of my personal power. I’ll be buying the dip, but saddened by the reasoning for said dip.
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rawrmaan
This change will increase rewards for a massive percentage of miners who are having p2p network issues for issues beyond their control. And for everyone else, the miners I'm speaking of are the ones that you witness, and the ones that witness you, so you'll have more consistent witnessing activity. Miners have a lot to gain from this HIP. More importantly, we all have a lot to gain if the network is substantially more stable. It becomes more resilient for its actual use case, which is transferring data. This will increase the confidence of device makers who are deploying Helium-powered hardware and make the network more successful in the long run. Nobody wins if we don't get usage on the network.
Can you transfer me enough HNT each month to cover my losses and if eventually my rewards go back up, I’ll pay you back?
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capcom
No one’s wrong to speak out about anything, I just don’t agree with the thrust of the objections. Miners already earn 61% of rewards this year and 62% next year, etc. If you have good suggestions please make them, but moving the rewards for challenge creation to the group that actually creates the challenges feels correct to me
If you want to compare percentages, look at the percentage that miner earnings have decreased compared to validated earnings increasing. If you can post those numbers, I’d appreciate it.
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jvan
Can you transfer me enough HNT each month to cover my losses and if eventually my rewards go back up, I’ll pay you back?
There are several people here who are willing to buy your equipment if you wish to unplug. I’m interested too if you so desire.
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jvan
If you want to compare percentages, look at the percentage that miner earnings have decreased compared to validated earnings increasing. If you can post those numbers, I’d appreciate it.
They both split a pie with people willing to participate in each pie. So miners earnings are still 61% and validator earnings are still 6%. Next year miners become 62%, then 63%, then 64%, and so on. Validators stay at 6% forever
09:12
At the start validator APY was something like 90% and is now 5.4%
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capcom
I don’t think we can keep the network in a crippled state just to keep some hotspot earnings higher than others. But I understand the point about rewards distribution
i understand but if the rewards and tokenomics of the protocol keep changing and downsizing the rewards for all the hotspots owners, like changing the interval of PoC, i know that the network needs to move foward but you need to keep in mind that most of the deployers are the ones creating the network, i myselft im a 100 hs deployer in a 3rd world country and i have been installing since august and every month theres more decision that have been downsizing our profit and i think this really makes all the deployers feel like we are not been taken in consideration
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AndrewsMD
There are several people here who are willing to buy your equipment if you wish to unplug. I’m interested too if you so desire.
Ah, the old “no one is forcing you to do this” play… so clever.
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DikeiDk
i understand but if the rewards and tokenomics of the protocol keep changing and downsizing the rewards for all the hotspots owners, like changing the interval of PoC, i know that the network needs to move foward but you need to keep in mind that most of the deployers are the ones creating the network, i myselft im a 100 hs deployer in a 3rd world country and i have been installing since august and every month theres more decision that have been downsizing our profit and i think this really makes all the deployers feel like we are not been taken in consideration
Changing the interval doesn’t meaningfully impact earnings, there are so many factors in parallel. Hotspot rewards have never been downsized, this would be the first HIP that changes them
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capcom
They both split a pie with people willing to participate in each pie. So miners earnings are still 61% and validator earnings are still 6%. Next year miners become 62%, then 63%, then 64%, and so on. Validators stay at 6% forever
HIP 55 makes it NOT forever. .03/day x 55000 miners, right?
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jvan
HIP 55 makes it NOT forever. .03/day x 55000 miners, right?
Not sure what you mean here
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capcom
Not sure what you mean here
With HIP 55, I’m losing .03hnt a day or a month?
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around 300k hotspots have been installed since the last halving and i can assure those 300k hotspot owners dont hold a significant amount of hnt so there really no fairness in account with the proposals and votes, early adopters and hst holders amount for the most hnt
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jvan
With HIP 55, I’m losing .03hnt a day or a month?
A month
09:15
And as the network grows that number would keep shrinking
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capcom
A month
So is every miner losing .03 per month?
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so no matter how this voting is proposed its always going to be centralized
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jvan
With HIP 55, I’m losing .03hnt a day or a month?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:15 AM
0.9% of 2500000 HNT = 22500 HNT per month / ~587,000 = 0.03833049403 HNT per hotspot per month / 30 = 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day
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jvan
So is every miner losing .03 per month?
Yes. Its 0.9% of the 2.5M monthly rewards which is 22,500 per month split across all hotspots
09:16
As the number of hotspots increases the per share decreases of course. So it’s 0.03 today but probably 0.02 next month and so on
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capcom
As the number of hotspots increases the per share decreases of course. So it’s 0.03 today but probably 0.02 next month and so on
So miners are collectively losing 22,500HNT per month?
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jvan
So miners are collectively losing 22,500HNT per month?
That’s correct
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jvan
So miners are collectively losing 22,500HNT per month?
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:17 AM
Now if you could get the numbers for how much they lose on the 40% of challenges that fail and the beacons that are never sent because of that...
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capcom
That’s correct
So 22,500HNT is now going to the validators each month
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jvan
So 22,500HNT is now going to the validators each month
That’s also correct. The hotspots would no longer create challenges, so they no longer get paid for that
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capcom
That’s also correct. The hotspots would no longer create challenges, so they no longer get paid for that
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:18 AM
Non CG validators should earn and create challenges (edited)
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capcom
That’s also correct. The hotspots would no longer create challenges, so they no longer get paid for that
So with HNT at roughly $25, that’s a shift of almost $7 million dollars a year in earnings.
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Sounds about right
09:20
It’s about 6 HNT per month per validator
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jvan
So with HNT at roughly $25, that’s a shift of almost $7 million dollars a year in earnings.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:20 AM
Basically $11.50 cents per hotspot lol
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capcom
Changing the interval doesn’t meaningfully impact earnings, there are so many factors in parallel. Hotspot rewards have never been downsized, this would be the first HIP that changes them
this is my most active hs, look on the decline after poc interval change
09:20
i can show you all of them
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Basically $11.50 cents per hotspot lol
This time around.
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The interval changes often, the amount of rewards doesn’t. It’s the unreliability of the network that is the problem as it takes forever to average out any change
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DikeiDk
this is my most active hs, look on the decline after poc interval change
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:21 AM
About the same time I dropped
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DikeiDk
this is my most active hs, look on the decline after poc interval change
If your complaint is that your earnings are inconsistent then you should love this HIP
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:21 AM
Its pretty annoying
09:21
But what can you do
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rawrmaan
If your complaint is that your earnings are inconsistent then you should love this HIP
They’re consistently lower. I think that’s his complaint.
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I mean that’s by design
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rawrmaan
If your complaint is that your earnings are inconsistent then you should love this HIP
its inconsistent because the team keeps tweeking the network
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You’re sharing 1.525M HNT per month with every hotspot. It’s always going to decline, unless the network stops growing
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DikeiDk
its inconsistent because the team keeps tweeking the network
If we didn’t your earnings would be zero, think of it that way instead. We don’t change things for fun
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:22 AM
Fluctuation is awesome
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That’s actually pretty damn steady compared to many miner graphs I’ve seen recently
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Declining rewards per miner is the history of every public blockchain ever. That's just how it works when you increase demand for finite resources.
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you guys are the ones that know better but you guys also the ones holding HST tokens, with the biggest hnt wallets and most hnt holdings so you are the ones that are going to be making the decisions, just keep in mind that we are the ones building the network functionality, we would appreciate be taking in consideration
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Miners have far more HNT than HST holders (unless they didn’t HODL it)
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DikeiDk
you guys are the ones that know better but you guys also the ones holding HST tokens, with the biggest hnt wallets and most hnt holdings so you are the ones that are going to be making the decisions, just keep in mind that we are the ones building the network functionality, we would appreciate be taking in consideration
We only propose changes that are beneficial for the network and the health of the economy. It’s a bumpy road. But HIPs like this one are how you get to a more stable network that requires less tweaking. The tweaking is a 24/7 job that we’d love to not be doing
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I’m starting to think this HIP should have been written with more hyperbolic language…”the network will fail catastrophically if these changes aren’t made”….because that is the reality
coolcry 3
09:27
The 0.9% thing maybe should have been a separate vote
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We tried to focus on the good parts. But instead I was met with people saying that miners have no problem with syncing, sd card issues, relating, port forwarding or bandwidth use today
09:28
Reddit is a trip
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capcom
We tried to focus on the good parts. But instead I was met with people saying that miners have no problem with syncing, sd card issues, relating, port forwarding or bandwidth use today
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:28 AM
Just wait for tomorrow 🤪
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rawrmaan
I’m starting to think this HIP should have been written with more hyperbolic language…”the network will fail catastrophically if these changes aren’t made”….because that is the reality
There is more truth to this statement than people appreciate.
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Or the “I paid for a full hotspot and now it’s becoming light”, as if that’s a bad thing
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coolcry 1
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DikeiDk
you guys are the ones that know better but you guys also the ones holding HST tokens, with the biggest hnt wallets and most hnt holdings so you are the ones that are going to be making the decisions, just keep in mind that we are the ones building the network functionality, we would appreciate be taking in consideration
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 9:29 AM
61% (60.1% after this is implemented) going to hotspots seems like appreciation (edited)
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rawrmaan
The 0.9% thing maybe should have been a separate vote
This part is probably right. No one could reasonably object to the architectural change other than on a more deeply technical level
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capcom
Or the “I paid for a full hotspot and now it’s becoming light”, as if that’s a bad thing
I paid for a couple-three handfuls, still waiting for delivery. I’m not complaining. Network stability is a critical issue. Full stop.
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capcom
Or the “I paid for a full hotspot and now it’s becoming light”, as if that’s a bad thing
I think this is actually a sign of success—it means we’ve reached a mass audience that doesn’t fully understand crypto tokenomics. The challenge is educating that audience, but it’s a worthy goal. It’s always been the goal with my podcast, and I see there’s a need to ramp up efforts and reach even more people.
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rawrmaan
I think this is actually a sign of success—it means we’ve reached a mass audience that doesn’t fully understand crypto tokenomics. The challenge is educating that audience, but it’s a worthy goal. It’s always been the goal with my podcast, and I see there’s a need to ramp up efforts and reach even more people.
The truth of the matter is not everyone is open to being educated. Something’s we just can’t fix. For those who are open minded, we will reach. For those who are closed, they may fall off. It’s life though.
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capcom
Or the “I paid for a full hotspot and now it’s becoming light”, as if that’s a bad thing
DeadStock_LTD 02/20/2022 9:49 AM
Well we need to ask the manufactures who have thousands of orders on backorder what does it mean for the customer? Will they wait for the components of a full hotspot to satisfy those orders? Or will they replace them with a light hotspot? And if they do, does that mean a refund to customers since they are slated to sell for less than what a full hotspot costs. (edited)
09:51
I understand the confusion regarding the changes to the barrier of entry to deploy a hotspot.
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DeadStock_LTD
Well we need to ask the manufactures who have thousands of orders on backorder what does it mean for the customer? Will they wait for the components of a full hotspot to satisfy those orders? Or will they replace them with a light hotspot? And if they do, does that mean a refund to customers since they are slated to sell for less than what a full hotspot costs. (edited)
They would be entirely new products sold separately
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capcom
Being able to deploy hotspots with minimal bandwidth and downtime is a huge deal. The syncing problems today are an absolute nightmare for reliability
a single data point isn't much, but I've got one host where I had to have her unplug because it was causing too much contention on her network. I didn't debug enough remotely too be sure, but wifi calling over mobile phone, streaming video on the TV, and zoom video calls got worse when the hotspot was on, immediately got better when the hotspot was unplugged. This was AFTER the initial sync and the "on vs off" test was done over a week for each state.
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Hotspots were always going to get cheaper and commoditized over time. Light hotspot software just further reduces the compute and storage requirements
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krby
a single data point isn't much, but I've got one host where I had to have her unplug because it was causing too much contention on her network. I didn't debug enough remotely too be sure, but wifi calling over mobile phone, streaming video on the TV, and zoom video calls got worse when the hotspot was on, immediately got better when the hotspot was unplugged. This was AFTER the initial sync and the "on vs off" test was done over a week for each state.
We have tons of data points from real customers (and potentials). The full node requirement is a total non starter in most deployments
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cap hi can we just add the 0.9 to the wittness or beacon ? instead of validators ?
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10:00
would that be a problem ?
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cryptoz
cap hi can we just add the 0.9 to the wittness or beacon ? instead of validators ?
There's a risk enough validators won't do the work then if you don't incentivize it. In this case, the work is: "maintain connections with hotspots, accept a flood of hotspot connection during consensus group work which risks validators not able to keep up with cg work well enough to avoid penalties". I don't know how many validator operators would actually do this, but there's a reason you have to incentivize people to do work.
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well yes but still it wasnt their in the first place since so many complaints about the 0.9
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I wouldn't even be that bothered by adding the 0.9 to other miner rewards if we found some other way to incentivise the correct behaviour for validators (for example, partitioning existing validator rewards). It is critical that the correct behaviour is incentivised somehow though
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again am for this hip cz the network will be so much healthier
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AndrewsMD
I paid for a couple-three handfuls, still waiting for delivery. I’m not complaining. Network stability is a critical issue. Full stop.
I paid 800 Euros for one Hotspot it's worth nothing now congratulations
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Resident
I paid 800 Euros for one Hotspot it's worth nothing now congratulations
You can deploy it and earn PoC rewards? If you wait for actual light hotspot to be available and ship, you'll miss out on many months of PoC and data transfer rewards. (edited)
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Yes you will never got one under 700-800 euros in Germany
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Resident
Yes you will never got one under 700-800 euros in Germany
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/20/2022 10:11 AM
I paid for my controllinos around 540€ (edited)
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Resident
I paid 800 Euros for one Hotspot it's worth nothing now congratulations
Did you destroy it or something?
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krby
You can deploy it and earn PoC rewards? If you wait for actual light hotspot to be available and ship, you'll miss out on many months of PoC and data transfer rewards. (edited)
yeah I setup it
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Resident
Yes you will never got one under 700-800 euros in Germany
...and because you have it now, you can deploy it now and start rewards now. Those waiting for light hotspots will have to wait.
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Cap will hate me for this, but it seems so painfully obvious to me that HST rewards should be treated in the same manner as all other rewards and be approachable for reallotment in thoughtful ways that help the network in times of significant conflict. To have one group of network reward seekers who do not provide network value through performing network functions be absolved in perpetuity from any changes in network circumstances seems to inherently handicap the network’s financial flexibility at the expense of true network participants.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I paid for my controllinos around 540€ (edited)
Which one? And how long you waited for
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capcom
Did you destroy it or something?
No, it's working no but the prices are too high
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Resident
Which one? And how long you waited for
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/20/2022 10:17 AM
Pre ordered september, got dilvered in November. Controllino
10:18
@Resident @Omen and I held a German AMA around HIP54 and 55 if you are interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwE3VpXRH8Q (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Pre ordered september, got dilvered in November. Controllino
SenseCap up 700 euros
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Resident
I paid 800 Euros for one Hotspot it's worth nothing now congratulations
You do realize your hotspot will continue working once it's ''converted'' to light spot. And also, you do realize that no matter what they say Lightspots won't be so cheap. As for Controllino, you had a batch now that was going for 499 euros + tax with shipping during March.
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deasydoesit
Cap will hate me for this, but it seems so painfully obvious to me that HST rewards should be treated in the same manner as all other rewards and be approachable for reallotment in thoughtful ways that help the network in times of significant conflict. To have one group of network reward seekers who do not provide network value through performing network functions be absolved in perpetuity from any changes in network circumstances seems to inherently handicap the network’s financial flexibility at the expense of true network participants.
No one's been brave enough to write this HIP yet
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rawrmaan
I’m starting to think this HIP should have been written with more hyperbolic language…”the network will fail catastrophically if these changes aren’t made”….because that is the reality
If the network would fail in such a way isn't there an incentive for Helium/investors - currently receiving a distribution of X% - to sacrifice something to ensure its long-term survival? I'm jumping in here, maybe without all the facts, but not clear why the hotspot owners - already facing inevitable reduction in earnings due to network growth - are the ones having to stump up the 0.9% bill.
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rawrmaan
No one's been brave enough to write this HIP yet
You understand the point though, right? HS owners are being told “0.9% isn’t that much you should just be happy the network will become more reliable” - an argument which I think is sound and one I that I agree with - but saying “0.9% isn’t that much you should just be happy the network will become more reliable” to HST holders is a complete non-starter.
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Artilugio
If the network would fail in such a way isn't there an incentive for Helium/investors - currently receiving a distribution of X% - to sacrifice something to ensure its long-term survival? I'm jumping in here, maybe without all the facts, but not clear why the hotspot owners - already facing inevitable reduction in earnings due to network growth - are the ones having to stump up the 0.9% bill.
I think the 0.9% allocation is currently written in the most apolitical/technical way possible--the hotspots will no longer be doing the work, so they no longer get the reward
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rawrmaan
I think the 0.9% allocation is currently written in the most apolitical/technical way possible--the hotspots will no longer be doing the work, so they no longer get the reward
but we can also add them to the witness and beacon rewards since it was theirs al along
10:39
0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day the whole problem is this 😄
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cryptoz
but we can also add them to the witness and beacon rewards since it was theirs al along
We could. Someone needs to write the HIP or start the vote. Nobody has taken the minimal amount of time if would take to do this by putting in 30 minutes of effort into writing a basic HIP/vote text and opening pull requests on Github. Until someone does, it won't happen. (edited)
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for my 80 hs i loose 0.1 per day so i loose 3 hnt per day month 😄
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rawrmaan
I think the 0.9% allocation is currently written in the most apolitical/technical way possible--the hotspots will no longer be doing the work, so they no longer get the reward
GzG | helium-staking.com 02/20/2022 10:41 AM
You could say that. But the same you could say of the early investors. They did their work in the beginning by adding value to the network. Now that the network is big enough, they don't do any work. It's the same with the hotspots, they did a lot of work in the beginning and now less and less work are assigned to them. But we need to keep in mind that they did their work in the beginnig and it's not really fair for all of the people that were promised a certain earning model and now that model is changing. I do understand the importance of HST owners but then again, as deasydoesit said, it's in their interest as well to grow the network and they should also sacrifice some of their earnings for the sake of the network.
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rawrmaan
We could. Someone needs to write the HIP or start the vote. Nobody has taken the minimal amount of time if would take to do this by putting in 30 minutes of effort into writing a basic HIP/vote text and opening pull requests on Github. Until someone does, it won't happen. (edited)
could you guide me sir ?
10:41
btw i am for this hip though 😄 would that create a conflict
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deasydoesit
Cap will hate me for this, but it seems so painfully obvious to me that HST rewards should be treated in the same manner as all other rewards and be approachable for reallotment in thoughtful ways that help the network in times of significant conflict. To have one group of network reward seekers who do not provide network value through performing network functions be absolved in perpetuity from any changes in network circumstances seems to inherently handicap the network’s financial flexibility at the expense of true network participants.
HST rewards already decrease 1% annually, more than is being debated here. And this 1% goes to Hotspots, not validators. We will never implement or sign anything changing this allocation. People who want to change this can fork the network with economics they like (edited)
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cryptoz
could you guide me sir ?
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capcom
HST rewards already decrease 1% annually, more than is being debated here. And this 1% goes to Hotspots, not validators. We will never implement or sign anything changing this allocation. People who want to change this can fork the network with economics they like (edited)
It's actually an interesting model for early investment in crypto, to not do a pre-mine but instead pay out over team. Part of why I like the Helium project.
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capcom
HST rewards already decrease 1% annually, more than is being debated here. And this 1% goes to Hotspots, not validators. We will never implement or sign anything changing this allocation. People who want to change this can fork the network with economics they like (edited)
Would a HIP proposing such a reconfiguration even be put to a vote?
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deasydoesit
Would a HIP proposing such a reconfiguration even be put to a vote?
We literally won’t do anything to facilitate anything that proposes changing the split. It’s the deal for participating in the network and much more fair than a premine that we could have done instead. We won’t be punished for that decision
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Howlinghells 02/20/2022 11:04 AM
@capcom , devs and mods, thanks for all your work on this network. I myself am not completely happy, but realize that is only on the selfish stance (My hotspot has been completely operational functioning very well, so good earnings. Therefore, I am sure my rewards will average down). Otherhand, a stabilized network with clients would be great to have instead of none at all, so understandably it makes sense. I feel its a rock and a hard place for those earning well on singles hosts and those that rely heavily on challenges. And while we cannot talk about RoI, you have to admit its a very big incentive right now, the combined current market price is also not helping. I was also one of those that misaligned my expectation by those Youtube videos, and I am realizing the practicality of it. I think it would be a great idea to: 1. Network is important, I don't think anyone is or should argue against that, but address the question, how to workaround the (likely if you are a above average earner?) reward drop. Either some guides on how to help the community expand on their current portfolio of hotspots, staking, or some other fashion that generates improvement for both the network and the host. (contracting out, or some other way?) It then becomes a discussion of the community attitude "HIP is coming, deal with it" (I won't discuss the vote, it's just my observation of the reaction of those against) to "HIP is coming, what's my next step?" 2. Regarding these light hotspots, is there any information on how available these will be from first manufacture? Some hosts may have paid double/triple the price for their equipment and for that reason alone could be why they are worried of lower rewards. Again I appreciate what ya'll do!
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Artilugio
If the network would fail in such a way isn't there an incentive for Helium/investors - currently receiving a distribution of X% - to sacrifice something to ensure its long-term survival? I'm jumping in here, maybe without all the facts, but not clear why the hotspot owners - already facing inevitable reduction in earnings due to network growth - are the ones having to stump up the 0.9% bill.
It’s not a bill it’s a shift of work and a shift of compensation accordingly. (edited)
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Howlinghells 02/20/2022 11:04 AM
I realize I may get some flak ("leave if you don't like it! I will buy your hotspot"..."Don't speak for the group"...etc) 1. These are my observations, if it's wrong, then constructively correct it please 2. I am fighting for the network, why would I leave?
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GzG | helium-staking.com
You could say that. But the same you could say of the early investors. They did their work in the beginning by adding value to the network. Now that the network is big enough, they don't do any work. It's the same with the hotspots, they did a lot of work in the beginning and now less and less work are assigned to them. But we need to keep in mind that they did their work in the beginnig and it's not really fair for all of the people that were promised a certain earning model and now that model is changing. I do understand the importance of HST owners but then again, as deasydoesit said, it's in their interest as well to grow the network and they should also sacrifice some of their earnings for the sake of the network.
Again, this will never occur. If anyone thinks a ~22% allocation to the team/investors who made all of this happen is unfair they can fork. Most modern projects allocate 50%+ to the team/investors/foundation and do it before the network launches. We chose a more fair model both in terms of allocation and the distribution time. We aren’t going to ever relitigate that decision no matter how simple of a solution it appears on it’s face (edited)
11:09
Also nothing to do with this HIP, so let’s try and keep on point
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Somewhere along the line the narrative has changed from incentivizing miners with rewards to increasing the life expectancy of a project at whatever cost. I don’t particularly care for the latter since the ultimate direction is us providing a service at a low rate of return… like banks. This HIP subtracts profits from us with the unproven promise of better efficiency and uptime. Since our HS no longer holds ledger we are not even miners anymore. This hIP seems to favor the validates as we move away from decentralization.
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Stanton
Somewhere along the line the narrative has changed from incentivizing miners with rewards to increasing the life expectancy of a project at whatever cost. I don’t particularly care for the latter since the ultimate direction is us providing a service at a low rate of return… like banks. This HIP subtracts profits from us with the unproven promise of better efficiency and uptime. Since our HS no longer holds ledger we are not even miners anymore. This hIP seems to favor the validates as we move away from decentralization.
Bitcoin miners rarely hold the ledger either. Don’t understand this point
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Populism over success.
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capcom
Hotspots were always going to get cheaper and commoditized over time. Light hotspot software just further reduces the compute and storage requirements
Hotspots prices will go lower and lower, otherwise network will fail to expand. After light hotspots explosion increase (due to lower prices), rewards per HS will decrease significantly, so only buying cheaper HS new owners will enter.
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I mean, the goal is the biggest possible network with the most usage. Explosion of hotspots is what we should all want
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capcom
I mean, the goal is the biggest possible network with the most usage. Explosion of hotspots is what we should all want
Thinks like that happen than and thats not what we all want neither what helium want i think,
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capcom
I mean, the goal is the biggest possible network with the most usage. Explosion of hotspots is what we should all want
Exactly, although if owners don't have any profit....they will not join.
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There are also non-obvious effects from more hotspots, like hosts sell less as mining gets harder which puts upwards pressure on the price as it becomes more scarce on the market. It’s never as simple as more HNT = earn more (edited)
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i joined like 2 weeks the helium network and this news i catch the bad part of this Projekt
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capcom
Bitcoin miners rarely hold the ledger either. Don’t understand this point
You chose not to understand. I mine Bitcoin. I hold the ledger.
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GФMΞS
Exactly, although if owners don't have any profit....they will not join.
Or worst those that are here leave!
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@capcom would it be possible to stop that, something like, you wont be able to set up a hotspot in a hex if there are already 3-4 hs ( i know people move their hotspot in other hexes but psychically stay the same ) , so that the rewardscales stay green around 0.9-1.0 and for the network i think it doesnt matter maybe its even better if there are just 3-4 max. in a hex
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Rhkills - Bobcat 300 4dbi 02/20/2022 12:05 PM
just voted
12:06
HIP55
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Stanton
Or worst those that are here leave!
Yes, if owners don't have any profit, or at least a reasonable profit.... why they should keep their hotspots connected?
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capcom
I mean, the goal is the biggest possible network with the most usage. Explosion of hotspots is what we should all want
I prefer a balance. PlanetWatch for example stopped selling licenses because the growth. Some areas for Helium are so overpopulated that there is barely a reward to be made. But I understand the difficulty with managing something like that. You are missing economics 101…supply and demand. If everyone has it then the value to the owners is lessen. Great however for the company. Which leads me to ask…who do you represent?
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You do understand that if the network doesn’t work then your rewards have no value, right? (edited)
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Is it working now? I think yes? Not sure your statement
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Stanton
Is it working now? I think yes? Not sure your statement
It's barely working. Less by the day
12:14
This HIP will bring it into a drastically more stable state for the foreseeable future
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Stanton
You chose not to understand. I mine Bitcoin. I hold the ledger.
Most mining pool protocols don’t require the ledger to be involved. Besides, hotspots haven’t been part of block production for quite a long time and don’t hold the full ledger today, so I remain unclear how the ledger and “mining” are related (edited)
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Stanton
I prefer a balance. PlanetWatch for example stopped selling licenses because the growth. Some areas for Helium are so overpopulated that there is barely a reward to be made. But I understand the difficulty with managing something like that. You are missing economics 101…supply and demand. If everyone has it then the value to the owners is lessen. Great however for the company. Which leads me to ask…who do you represent?
All HNT holders are affected equally by any economic change. The company has no other business model today, so if something is bad for you it’s bad for us
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Stanton
I prefer a balance. PlanetWatch for example stopped selling licenses because the growth. Some areas for Helium are so overpopulated that there is barely a reward to be made. But I understand the difficulty with managing something like that. You are missing economics 101…supply and demand. If everyone has it then the value to the owners is lessen. Great however for the company. Which leads me to ask…who do you represent?
Some areas for Helium are so overpopulated that there is barely a reward to be made.
@Stanton : This is market forces incentivizing you to put your hotspot somewhere else. If someone comes on top of you, it's incentivizing you (and everyone else in the same hex) to move it somewhere else. I understand that somewhere else may be harder. My home location was not ideal originally (not enough around) but I kept one there and kept improving antenna setup and others showed up eventually and it worked out. Part effort, part luck. In another location that is "easy" for me to deploy, it didn't witness anything for a month, now it witnesses four, I need to try harder to get then antenna out of the attic. I have another easy-for-me-to-deploy in a VERY crowded hex, I put it there knowing that, making things worse. But I didn't have a home for it at the time, so I did it anyone. The low rewards bother me so I put a little effort in and found a new host for it though, just need to get off my butt, take it down and ship it. I haven't done that work, so I continue to suffer, but the low rewards did motivate me to find a new location. I have tried friends and family for hosting, many are not interested, I haven't tried really hard though, just sort of casually mention it to people, so my rewards are not stellar, about average. Which matches my effort I guess so seems ok to me.
(edited)
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You are manipulating voting for HIP55, my vote against hasn´t gone through in these last two days, why?
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krby
Thanks for pointing this out, I made this mistake in an argument earlier. Hotspots overall won't earn more because of fewer PoC failure" but really these failures just distribute that HNT to the non-failed PoCs. So some hotspots will earn more (arguably be brought back to what they "should be" in an ideal model of the network)
Deleted User 02/20/2022 1:39 PM
Thanks I was doing the same but wanted to say what you did at the end. 👍
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NMM1985
You are manipulating voting for HIP55, my vote against hasn´t gone through in these last two days, why?
If you post the transaction hash anyone here can look up the status using the API (edited)
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NMM1985
You are manipulating voting for HIP55, my vote against hasn´t gone through in these last two days, why?
deasydoesit 02/20/2022 1:52 PM
I wouldn’t accuse people of “manipulation” so lightly mate. As krby said, you can post the transaction hash so people can help you troubleshoot your issue.
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malder
You're not missing anything, they are missing information because the problems are hidden. For many, they think their hotspot is plugging away at 100% efficiency making 0.1 HNT a day, and for some reason you want to take away 0.003. They assume the problems you are talking about must be on other hotspots because they've seen no errors regarding network issues etc. If people were actually able to see all the beacons their hotspot actually collects, and then see that half are lost due to p2p issues, they would be screaming for these changes!
Exactly, and this is today only.
13:53
Literally “screaming” for the changes of this HIP
13:55
Last week i had 200 failed witnesses in a span of 36 hours
13:56
Not every manufacturer reveals this info, but luckily mine does and the amount of failed witnesses is absurd
13:57
You guys should realize that the amount of hnt you’re going to lose from not creating challenges is nothing compared to the hnt you’re missing by simply using p2p
13:59
Also the time your hotspot is wasting by syncing when it’s behind
14:00
Is enough to make you want this hip to pass
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About to vote yes for this hip with my big bag wallet
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NMM1985
You are manipulating voting for HIP55, my vote against hasn´t gone through in these last two days, why?
Damn. You caught us
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Shame on you guys manipulating the vote and not letting 1hnt wallets vote against
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@deasydoesit My app not even starts the transaction.
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NMM1985
@deasydoesit My app not even starts the transaction.
deasydoesit 02/20/2022 2:25 PM
Do you have sufficient HNT in your account?
14:28
Also worth noting that this is a “burn” transaction and any history of such a transaction type is found under the “burn transactions” tab in the Helium mobile wallet
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NMM1985
@deasydoesit My app not even starts the transaction.
deasydoesit 02/20/2022 2:37 PM
I’m on iOS v3.10.0 and was able to successfully make a burn transaction against HIP55. What OS and wallet version are you on?
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So if this HIP passes (or I really should say when it passes looking at the votes so far 😄 ), what kind of timeline would we be looking at for it be implemented? @capcom (edited)
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Really depends on how the testnet testing goes
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Here we go!
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Tarek
Exactly, and this is today only.
Agree. What is your miner manufacturer?
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Can someone explain this hip in an easy way? Because i don’t understand what wi’ll happen and i already read a whole page about it
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 4:14 PM
I recon we do more hips @capcom never so much traffic in discord since the good old Merch fights
partyparrot 1
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capcom
Really depends on how the testnet testing goes
OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 4:19 PM
Several months or a couple of weeks away since it sounds some manufacturers already start to produce those light hotspots?
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OptimusPrime
Several months or a couple of weeks away since it sounds some manufacturers already start to produce those light hotspots?
Deleted User 02/20/2022 4:20 PM
Hihi I got told 15 month ago it's arround the corner .. the question is witch... It is what it is tho 🤣 helium is fighting all sorts of problems including the c word .. beside having a Hugh grow to over 500 000 hotspots connected to the network (edited)
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Rindert
Can someone explain this hip in an easy way? Because i don’t understand what wi’ll happen and i already read a whole page about it
600K hotspots is a bit too much for the current p2p-implementation. That p2p is now used for syncing blocks (since every hotspot has (a part) of the blockchain and to "challenge" other hotspots. Other hotspots report back with POC information (witnesses they see, beacons sent...) That p2p is causing a lot of problems, where receipts do not arrive, bad syncing, a lot of other stuff going wrong with that p2p. Now, in order to get rid of that p2p, we need to find another way to let hotspots talk to each other, or make sure they do not need to talk to each other. Enter HIP55. We remove the p2p network and everything that is related to that. Most important here is that hotspots will not have the blockchain anymore, and that they will not create challenges anymore. As a consequence, hotspots do not need to report back to other hotspots. So where will those challenges be created? On the validators, that already exists. This means (again): no more p2p needed anymore. Which comes with a lot of advantages (capcom has made a resume of the pros and cons of this). The biggest con, and the biggest discussion here is that the validators will be rewarded for creating those challenges, and not the hotspots anymore. Those challenge rewards make up to 0.9% of the total amount of HNT rewarded/day.
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Deleted User
Hihi I got told 15 month ago it's arround the corner .. the question is witch... It is what it is tho 🤣 helium is fighting all sorts of problems including the c word .. beside having a Hugh grow to over 500 000 hotspots connected to the network (edited)
OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 4:24 PM
If I understand the AMA correctly, I believe some manufacturers already have light hotspots in the testnet, LongAP and/or Bobcat? (edited)
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molano
600K hotspots is a bit too much for the current p2p-implementation. That p2p is now used for syncing blocks (since every hotspot has (a part) of the blockchain and to "challenge" other hotspots. Other hotspots report back with POC information (witnesses they see, beacons sent...) That p2p is causing a lot of problems, where receipts do not arrive, bad syncing, a lot of other stuff going wrong with that p2p. Now, in order to get rid of that p2p, we need to find another way to let hotspots talk to each other, or make sure they do not need to talk to each other. Enter HIP55. We remove the p2p network and everything that is related to that. Most important here is that hotspots will not have the blockchain anymore, and that they will not create challenges anymore. As a consequence, hotspots do not need to report back to other hotspots. So where will those challenges be created? On the validators, that already exists. This means (again): no more p2p needed anymore. Which comes with a lot of advantages (capcom has made a resume of the pros and cons of this). The biggest con, and the biggest discussion here is that the validators will be rewarded for creating those challenges, and not the hotspots anymore. Those challenge rewards make up to 0.9% of the total amount of HNT rewarded/day.
Thank you so much for explaining!! Will there be a change in what my miner is making?
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OptimusPrime
If I understand the AMA correctly, I believe some manufacturers already have light hotspots in the testnet, LongAP and/or Bobcat? (edited)
Deleted User 02/20/2022 4:26 PM
You can't do all at once I was trying to say .. every tweek they do they have to monitor for weeks (edited)
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16:26
That's why all takes ages
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16:27
It's just how it is 🙂
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Rindert
Thank you so much for explaining!! Will there be a change in what my miner is making?
Very little. All rewards you receive for "challenged beaconer" will move to validators
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Deleted User 02/20/2022 4:28 PM
Validators for example had a hard time at the beginning, if you would have pushed 54 55 bevor we'll go figure (edited)
16:28
For everything there is a time (edited)
16:29
You will have to learn partyparrot
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molano
Very little. All rewards you receive for "challenged beaconer" will move to validators
Oooo i see, thx again!
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OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 4:29 PM
By the way, I 💯 support the HIP55. Just hope to get rid of those cheaters first. (edited)
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OptimusPrime
By the way, I 💯 support the HIP55. Just hope to get rid of those cheaters first. (edited)
HIP55 has no relation whatsoever with gaming/cheating
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molano
HIP55 has no relation whatsoever with gaming/cheating
OptimusPrime 02/20/2022 4:30 PM
I know.
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16:31
Just saying. Hope the HIP40 is the mostly prioritized 😉 (edited)
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OptimusPrime
Just saying. Hope the HIP40 is the mostly prioritized 😉 (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 02/20/2022 4:33 PM
It is :)
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OptimusPrime
Several months or a couple of weeks away since it sounds some manufacturers already start to produce those light hotspots?
Hoping on the order of weeks. But the priority is to upgrade the existing network and hotspots, and not on new hardware
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mineHNT
Thinks like that happen than and thats not what we all want neither what helium want i think,
This could be easily overcome by limiting hotspots per hex (not allowing to register them there, this would change how manufacturers sell their products, when a person enters his address it could tell the buyer instantly "you won't be able to use your hotspot at your current location since it is too crowded already, are you sure you want to proceed?"). This is harsh, but whole map would be green and nice to look at, lol.
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being
This could be easily overcome by limiting hotspots per hex (not allowing to register them there, this would change how manufacturers sell their products, when a person enters his address it could tell the buyer instantly "you won't be able to use your hotspot at your current location since it is too crowded already, are you sure you want to proceed?"). This is harsh, but whole map would be green and nice to look at, lol.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/20/2022 6:42 PM
until they get a better working PoC you'd just be incentivising poor locations assertions
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 10:01 PM
Interesting bit of vote math: Average HNT per wallet that has voted on HIP55: (as of 10pm PST) No: 177 HNT per vote Yes: 1,609 HNT per vote The average Yes voter has 9 times more HNT in their wallet than the average No voter. 🤔
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Gm! When will validator take over challenges? is it a matter of days or weeks ?
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Are we there yet?
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OptimusPrime
If I understand the AMA correctly, I believe some manufacturers already have light hotspots in the testnet, LongAP and/or Bobcat? (edited)
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 10:31 PM
There are no instructions (officially, I think the support is there) to join the testnet yet.
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Ok, just listened to the AMA again. testnet is running with it and it will be rolled out over the next weeks, but no clear timeline yet
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OptimusPrime
Several months or a couple of weeks away since it sounds some manufacturers already start to produce those light hotspots?
Tim | LongAP 02/20/2022 10:33 PM
We are already producing hotspots that are light-hotspots, just not selling them as such and using them for other LoRa networks or as data-only.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Interesting bit of vote math: Average HNT per wallet that has voted on HIP55: (as of 10pm PST) No: 177 HNT per vote Yes: 1,609 HNT per vote The average Yes voter has 9 times more HNT in their wallet than the average No voter. 🤔
In other words , the people with more capital invested should have a bigger say in what happens with the network moving forward. Why should 10,000 people with let’s say 1 HNT in their wallets be able to determine the future of the project ? That’s exactly why it’s a voting system based on total HNT delegated to a decision
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being
This could be easily overcome by limiting hotspots per hex (not allowing to register them there, this would change how manufacturers sell their products, when a person enters his address it could tell the buyer instantly "you won't be able to use your hotspot at your current location since it is too crowded already, are you sure you want to proceed?"). This is harsh, but whole map would be green and nice to look at, lol.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:47 PM
This is not very smart.
22:47
And can be exploited very easily lol
22:47
Someone can fill a hex with their own hotspots and “own” the hex
22:47
We already have hex resolutions
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being
This could be easily overcome by limiting hotspots per hex (not allowing to register them there, this would change how manufacturers sell their products, when a person enters his address it could tell the buyer instantly "you won't be able to use your hotspot at your current location since it is too crowded already, are you sure you want to proceed?"). This is harsh, but whole map would be green and nice to look at, lol.
Helium shouldn’t have the ability to deny a hotspot to be asserted anywhere . That is why there is a reward scale that adjusts to area saturation and it’s up to the hotspot owner to move them to less saturated areas
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:48 PM
61% of the monthly minted HNT goes to hotspots.
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22:48
6% goes to validators.
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So validators only getting 6% is what makes it a validators network ? Jeez what’s in the water these days
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:49 PM
Sorry, 6.9% goes to validators after this HIP is implemented 🤪
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:50 PM
What? This HIP is literally HELPING hotspots and the entire network
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I doubt the validators were happy with the extra load of pocv11
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Someone could have 5,000 HNT and is mining and just decides they like HIP 55 , that it should allow the network to run more stable . You would rather have a network that goes down weekly for an extra 0.09% rewards ? Lmfao
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:50 PM
No more syncing, no more port forwarding, no more 40% of the network challenges failing
22:51
More consistent earnings
22:51
And a more stable network
22:51
No it’s not?
22:51
Literally documented
22:52
.9% of the total HNT minted per month goes to challenges
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
No it’s not?
People can’t read, they just hear less rewards for hotspots. Yet when the network is down they earn 0 HNT 😂so….
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:53 PM
But the amount of HNT given out per activity goes up
22:53
facepalm
22:53
Everything is compensated for
22:53
Helium doesn’t just have a set amount of HNT given out per activity
22:54
Right, this HIP is about moving challenges onto validators, it’ll make the network stable and give more consistent rewards
22:55
Would it not?
22:55
The majority of challenges failing are from incorrectly configured hotspots, or those who didn’t even try
22:55
A relayed hotspot is bad for the entire network
22:55
Now we get rid of relayed hotspots
22:56
Do you understand that to create challenges you need to open ports?
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:57 PM
So hotspots should get rewarded for creating challenges but validators shouldn’t? (edited)
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BSL
In other words , the people with more capital invested should have a bigger say in what happens with the network moving forward. Why should 10,000 people with let’s say 1 HNT in their wallets be able to determine the future of the project ? That’s exactly why it’s a voting system based on total HNT delegated to a decision
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 10:57 PM
I just said it was an interesting bit of math. Wasn't offering opinions on it one way or another... (for once. lol) (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:57 PM
Seems a bit unfair
22:57
Yes I have
22:57
Many of us in general
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:57 PM
Challenging isn’t PoC
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If you can’t read this I don’t know to help you . Hotspots will lose 0.90% for a network that doesn’t crash weekly
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 10:58 PM
Challenges aren’t PoC, there is no coverage being produced with challenges
22:59
Maybe it’s listed as it
22:59
I don’t think it should be worded that way
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BSL
In other words , the people with more capital invested should have a bigger say in what happens with the network moving forward. Why should 10,000 people with let’s say 1 HNT in their wallets be able to determine the future of the project ? That’s exactly why it’s a voting system based on total HNT delegated to a decision
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 10:59 PM
Also, you shouldn't assume that that HNT is "invested". You mined 10x more HNT for the same effort to the network just 6 months ago. And don't even get me started on the amount of "voting power" you can accumulate by cheating. 😉
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Hotspots earn less regardless as more come online but as the network expands so could the value of the token
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:00 PM
No?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:00 PM
$11 per year? lol
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:00 PM
.03 HNT on average per month lol (edited)
23:02
0.9% of 2500000 HNT = 22500 HNT per month / ~587,000 = 0.03833049403 HNT per hotspot per month / 30 = 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:02 PM
The same reason hotspots get it, because they are creating challenges
23:02
Why should hotspots earn for challenges?
23:02
It’s so little
23:02
We should give it to mappers
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
$11 per year? lol
How do you figure that? 0.003 per challenge, 3 times a day * 365 days = 3.285HNT per year, let's say half of them fail, still ~1.5HNT per year.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Also, you shouldn't assume that that HNT is "invested". You mined 10x more HNT for the same effort to the network just 6 months ago. And don't even get me started on the amount of "voting power" you can accumulate by cheating. 😉
Spoofing happens in any network or anything dealing with technology . VPN apps have been around forever now. It’s about combating the bad actors and creating systems in place to insure correct hotspot placement
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BSL
Spoofing happens in any network or anything dealing with technology . VPN apps have been around forever now. It’s about combating the bad actors and creating systems in place to insure correct hotspot placement
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:03 PM
Umm... did you reply to the wrong comment? 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Umm... did you reply to the wrong comment? 🙂
Spoofing= cheating . It is being combatted as we speak
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groot
How do you figure that? 0.003 per challenge, 3 times a day * 365 days = 3.285HNT per year, let's say half of them fail, still ~1.5HNT per year.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:04 PM
Hmm... I was starting at 1.3hnt daily average, but I think I messed up the math from there. Let me double check. 🙂
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groot
How do you figure that? 0.003 per challenge, 3 times a day * 365 days = 3.285HNT per year, let's say half of them fail, still ~1.5HNT per year.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:05 PM
I’m getting .47 per year
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BSL
Spoofing happens in any network or anything dealing with technology . VPN apps have been around forever now. It’s about combating the bad actors and creating systems in place to insure correct hotspot placement
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:05 PM
That doesn't do anything for the million in HNT already stolen that can be voted with. 😉
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:06 PM
0.9% of 2500000 HNT = 22500 HNT per month / ~587,000 = 0.03833049403 HNT per hotspot per month / 30 = 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day * 365 = 0.46635434245 HNT per hotspot per year
23:07
Of course that’s not taking in the fact that those challenge rewards will continue to decline (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
0.9% of 2500000 HNT = 22500 HNT per month / ~587,000 = 0.03833049403 HNT per hotspot per month / 30 = 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day 0.00127768313 HNT per hotspot per day * 365 = 0.46635434245 HNT per hotspot per year
Ah, that works. I started from the current situation where nowhere near 587k hotspots actually challenge and thus reward per challenge is much higher.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:08 PM
This HIP is a step towards light hotspots, light hotspots will make hotspots easier to set up than ever before
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groot
How do you figure that? 0.003 per challenge, 3 times a day * 365 days = 3.285HNT per year, let's say half of them fail, still ~1.5HNT per year.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:09 PM
ok, fixed my math. I was using 0.9% as the total of the hotspot's rewards instead of the real % which is 1.47%. Comes out to $21 per year if HNT is sitting at $30 (edited)
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groot
Ah, that works. I started from the current situation where nowhere near 587k hotspots actually challenge and thus reward per challenge is much higher.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:09 PM
I mean, I would grab the total amount online instead of just total amount onboarded, and also subtract the 40% that fail, but ETL is down and can’t get data (edited)
23:09
I’ll try when it’s back up
23:11
Also pretty late
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Let's agree it isn't a lot and since hotspots will no longer be doing the work why should they be rewarded for it.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:11 PM
1 am
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groot
Let's agree it isn't a lot and since hotspots will no longer be doing the work why should they be rewarded for it.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:11 PM
There we go
23:11
I can agree on that
23:12
Why should those challenge reward go back in the hotspot pool when the hotspots aren’t doing the work
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23:12
Alright, off to bed
23:12
Have fun debating
23:13
I love meddling in HIP’s because I learn a lot
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/20/2022 11:26 PM
Hotspots will request for a challenge
23:26
At the current interval I guess
23:26
Wait I’m supposed to be asleep
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23:26
Alright peace hahaha
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It's in the HIP, and it's not (necessarily) the current interval. (edited)
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I go to work every day, yet I am only paid once a month. Would I be paid more if I was paid every week?
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23:30
Well the same holds with beacon interval, if the interval is lower the reward per beacon would just be higher. The amount to divvy up between hotspots remains the same.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:34 PM
Your variance increases. The rewards stay the same over time, just the swings are bigger.
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When I try to vote on this using a CLI Ledger Wallet, I get "data.len() = 144 error: Decoding Error". Perhaps not the best place for this question, but anyone have any idea what this means? @pharkmillups do we have a general Vote-Tech-Support thread?
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jt
When I try to vote on this using a CLI Ledger Wallet, I get "data.len() = 144 error: Decoding Error". Perhaps not the best place for this question, but anyone have any idea what this means? @pharkmillups do we have a general Vote-Tech-Support thread?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:43 PM
Likely #console
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I think every winning HIP vote, be it 'yes' or 'no', will show the same & the largest wallets always decide the outcome. (For example, the HIP 54 currently has the winning voters holding an average of x14 that of the losers.) For someone holding very little there's very little incentive to vote - it's more or less a cosmetic exercise. One person/one vote is a cornerstone of true democracies & it'd be interesting to imagine what would happen with Helium if a system of one hotspot/one vote - the People's Vote! - were introduced here. Things would probably be very different, though not necessarily better. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/20/2022 11:49 PM
Well the math does not take into account p2p issues. 🙂 All the more reason we need light hotspots. 🙂
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When will this hip be activated?
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mineHNT
When will this hip be activated?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 12:03 AM
Q2 would be a safe semi-educated guess. (edited)
00:09
Ooooorr... I could be really wrong and it's more like Oct 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ooooorr... I could be really wrong and it's more like Oct 😉
Deleted User 02/21/2022 12:37 AM
smart you to not write the year 🙂
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When would be h HIP of ports be activated?
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BSL
In other words , the people with more capital invested should have a bigger say in what happens with the network moving forward. Why should 10,000 people with let’s say 1 HNT in their wallets be able to determine the future of the project ? That’s exactly why it’s a voting system based on total HNT delegated to a decision
600k hotspots with 1HNT in their wallets is what sells(or pro m ote) the network not few with millions of HNT. It's the people's network.
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disc6789
600k hotspots with 1HNT in their wallets is what sells(or pro m ote) the network not few with millions of HNT. It's the people's network.
But I think most of the wallet holders do not know about voting, I also just found out by actively searching for it
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gabmar4g
But I think most of the wallet holders do not know about voting, I also just found out by actively searching for it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 2:54 AM
Everyone should have gotten a notification from their app.
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gabmar4g
But I think most of the wallet holders do not know about voting, I also just found out by actively searching for it
Yeah that why the rich gets richer
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Everyone should have gotten a notification from their app.
yes thats right, but to find where to vote was what I was looking for
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When you have 1HNT and you think you've got nothing to say, then you stay mute
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disc6789
Yeah that why the rich gets richer
seems so
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gabmar4g
yes thats right, but to find where to vote was what I was looking for
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 2:56 AM
Hmm... yeah, the notif doesn't direct to the voting site.
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02:57
Though the ama is listed and that has the link to the voting site.
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The power is with the wallets with 1HNTs but the balance with the rich or those with millions
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 2:58 AM
This HIP has nothing to do with voting. Please take it to #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 🙂
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You say it doesn't, but you asking the major HNT holders to vote on if they want to earn more. This discussion has a place here imo.
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having the vote option integrated into the app would be great.
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A HIP should be made to change the voting system. It can't be, as I read up, one HS, one vote. That would still benefit the large holders. Why? Because there are accounts responsible for a large number of HS. So, this should be changed to a system where one account, no matter the number of HNT or HS equal to one vote. (edited)
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Please take to #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 (also what you propose would be the easiest system to abuse)
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Drulo
A HIP should be made to change the voting system. It can't be, as I read up, one HS, one vote. That would still benefit the large holders. Why? Because there are accounts responsible for a large number of HS. So, this should be changed to a system where one account, no matter the number of HNT or HS equal to one vote. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 02/21/2022 7:07 AM
There is, #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 . Further in the future #hip-51-helium-dao might apply too
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What he said
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capcom
Please take to #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 (also what you propose would be the easiest system to abuse)
So I should stop writing my wallet creation script then? /s 🙃
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All full Hotspot owners should consider staking some HNT for yearly returns.
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Drulo
A HIP should be made to change the voting system. It can't be, as I read up, one HS, one vote. That would still benefit the large holders. Why? Because there are accounts responsible for a large number of HS. So, this should be changed to a system where one account, no matter the number of HNT or HS equal to one vote. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/21/2022 7:45 AM
But then people can just automate a process that makes a huge amount of wallets :/
07:46
And then vote for whichever option they choose on all of them
07:46
Of course, they need to get some HNT on the account to pay for fees, but Im sure a whale who wants something to pass could do it (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Of course, they need to get some HNT on the account to pay for fees, but Im sure a whale who wants something to pass could do it (edited)
If it was based solely on votes, you could vote ~700 times with 10 HNT which is no bueno. I agree that there needs to be a limiter in place to prevent this
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Lets have voting based on HNT you own: But Validators control it, ok lets have it on Hotspots you own: But Emirit controls it, ok lets have it per wallet: But bot scripters confrol it, ok lets have it based on your witnesses: But Emrit and Cheatnets control it, ok lets have based on DC transfers: Bulk sensor owners control it. Sigh!
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waveform
Lets have voting based on HNT you own: But Validators control it, ok lets have it on Hotspots you own: But Emirit controls it, ok lets have it per wallet: But bot scripters confrol it, ok lets have it based on your witnesses: But Emrit and Cheatnets control it, ok lets have based on DC transfers: Bulk sensor owners control it. Sigh!
This is what happens when people are brainwashed by decentralization narratives and focus only on power dynamics rather than building successful networks. It’s a result of marketing. (edited)
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Worth noting that validators only control abut 1/3 of the supply of HNT, so are not in a position to push through votes that require a 2/3 majority alone. Most HNT is not owned by validators. Miners have received the bulk of HNT inflation.
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Who cares who’s in control if they have strong monetary incentives for the network to succeed?
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AlexC
Worth noting that validators only control abut 1/3 of the supply of HNT, so are not in a position to push through votes that require a 2/3 majority alone. Most HNT is not owned by validators. Miners have received the bulk of HNT inflation.
On that topic, people here seem to imply that ‘the validators’ are one entity while in reality they’re not.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Interesting bit of vote math: Average HNT per wallet that has voted on HIP55: (as of 10pm PST) No: 177 HNT per vote Yes: 1,609 HNT per vote The average Yes voter has 9 times more HNT in their wallet than the average No voter. 🤔
Did you calculate the median of each? Would be interesting to see if a few very big or very small wallets were skewing either
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HG
Who cares who’s in control if they have strong monetary incentives for the network to succeed?
Yeah, I mean I voted for this HIP and it's because I think it will result in a better network, which will in turn make my HNT much more valuable. I don't think it will meaningfully increase validator ROI as new validators will likely be attracted by increased payouts, canceling out any gains.
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This really should have been sorted out months ago. Ive been trying to follow whats happening around this for months and its been assumed as it will happen for ages - just not actually put into words and a proposal. The decision to take challengers away from hotspots is a given to improve the network. The problem I guess has always been (a) who does do the challenges and (b) who gets the 0.9%. Validators are the logical place for (a) and thus (b). But there is nothing to stop say another HIP coming along that proposes a 100HNT Staked cloud Challenger role.
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jt
When I try to vote on this using a CLI Ledger Wallet, I get "data.len() = 144 error: Decoding Error". Perhaps not the best place for this question, but anyone have any idea what this means? @pharkmillups do we have a general Vote-Tech-Support thread?
Let's go troubleshoot this in #cli-wallet-development , that's where both the CLI wallet and the ledger wallet folks tend to hang out.
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disc6789
When you have 1HNT and you think you've got nothing to say, then you stay mute
For someone holding very little there's very little incentive to vote - it's more or less a cosmetic exercise
I must be missing something, because I would still vote. Especially if I want to be able to have a debate later about "1 wallet 1 vote" vs "HNT weighted vote". This vote seems like a great example to be able to point back to and say: "Look! 63% of the wallets voted against, but 90% of the HNT voted for", that's clearly broken! If anyone is serious about trying to prove this point, this seems like a good vote to do it. Without those numbers in the vote, there's just this often-mentioned ghost of "all these 1HNT wallet voters won't vote", we have to change the rules! Anyone can claim anything. I'd like to see the pile of people care enough to vote, even if just to make a point, that they could then use to gather support to actually change the voting system. But this requires effort. In real life votes, I do this, most people I know do this. We go through the effort of voting for candidates and policies even if it's clear what each person wants is not likely to win. I don't understand those who don't.
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waveform
This really should have been sorted out months ago. Ive been trying to follow whats happening around this for months and its been assumed as it will happen for ages - just not actually put into words and a proposal. The decision to take challengers away from hotspots is a given to improve the network. The problem I guess has always been (a) who does do the challenges and (b) who gets the 0.9%. Validators are the logical place for (a) and thus (b). But there is nothing to stop say another HIP coming along that proposes a 100HNT Staked cloud Challenger role.
But there is nothing to stop say another HIP coming along that proposes a 100HNT Staked cloud Challenger role.
Just someone to put the effort in to think it through carefully and write it and then get others on board. Unfortunately, most ideas stop before this.
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krby
For someone holding very little there's very little incentive to vote - it's more or less a cosmetic exercise
I must be missing something, because I would still vote. Especially if I want to be able to have a debate later about "1 wallet 1 vote" vs "HNT weighted vote". This vote seems like a great example to be able to point back to and say: "Look! 63% of the wallets voted against, but 90% of the HNT voted for", that's clearly broken! If anyone is serious about trying to prove this point, this seems like a good vote to do it. Without those numbers in the vote, there's just this often-mentioned ghost of "all these 1HNT wallet voters won't vote", we have to change the rules! Anyone can claim anything. I'd like to see the pile of people care enough to vote, even if just to make a point, that they could then use to gather support to actually change the voting system. But this requires effort. In real life votes, I do this, most people I know do this. We go through the effort of voting for candidates and policies even if it's clear what each person wants is not likely to win. I don't understand those who don't.
The reality is that those who are more invested, have the larger vote power. This disparity is not solved by HIP41 or other HIPs which bury HIP41 in its content. It is what it is.
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disc6789
All full Hotspot owners should consider staking some HNT for yearly returns.
Yes! Stake with one of the partial staking services!
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AndrewsMD
The reality is that those who are more invested, have the larger vote power. This disparity is not solved by HIP41 or other HIPs which bury HIP41 in its content. It is what it is.
Maybe, the most invested people spend more mental energy thinking about Helium and how to make it succeed? So maybe this voting system is ok? Dunno. But change requires actual effort.
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You see the same thing in today’s politics (I.e., he who has the most funding can sway the votes), it is this way with publicly traded companies, etc. It’s a fact of life.
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In any case, we're off into "voting ideas for Helium" territory, dunno if that's considered off topic for this channel.
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08:24
I just wanted to voice my frustration at the "there's tons of demoralized no voters who won't vote!!" comment that keeps coming up. I don't understand that mindset. But I guess that's a fault in my personality. (edited)
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Is the vote count accurate?
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krby
Maybe, the most invested people spend more mental energy thinking about Helium and how to make it succeed? So maybe this voting system is ok? Dunno. But change requires actual effort.
Last comment, and then I’ll cease about voting. Sometimes, . . . Sometimes, those have have more to lose, think about the direction of the company more, and make the better decision than those who have few and can only see through a small glass darkly.
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96% for already lol
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AndrewsMD
You see the same thing in today’s politics (I.e., he who has the most funding can sway the votes), it is this way with publicly traded companies, etc. It’s a fact of life.
..a fact of life that us about to be changed forever (blockchain)
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krby
I just wanted to voice my frustration at the "there's tons of demoralized no voters who won't vote!!" comment that keeps coming up. I don't understand that mindset. But I guess that's a fault in my personality. (edited)
It’s going to get worse with vote by token lock. Not better. If people are disenfranchised to vote, perhaps they should leave the decisions to those who are willing to understand and vote. (edited)
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disc6789
..a fact of life that us about to be changed forever (blockchain)
I’ll believe it when I see it. Not sure that changing the current system is in the best interest of the Helium ecosystem though.
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AndrewsMD
I’ll believe it when I see it. Not sure that changing the current system is in the best interest of the Helium ecosystem though.
There are "permanent records" thatz hard to change but we avoiding doing the work.
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AndrewsMD
It’s going to get worse with vote by token lock. Not better. If people are disenfranchised to vote, perhaps they should leave the decisions to those who are willing to understand and vote. (edited)
Yes, many are now being quickened but they need access to these resources ...
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krby
For someone holding very little there's very little incentive to vote - it's more or less a cosmetic exercise
I must be missing something, because I would still vote. Especially if I want to be able to have a debate later about "1 wallet 1 vote" vs "HNT weighted vote". This vote seems like a great example to be able to point back to and say: "Look! 63% of the wallets voted against, but 90% of the HNT voted for", that's clearly broken! If anyone is serious about trying to prove this point, this seems like a good vote to do it. Without those numbers in the vote, there's just this often-mentioned ghost of "all these 1HNT wallet voters won't vote", we have to change the rules! Anyone can claim anything. I'd like to see the pile of people care enough to vote, even if just to make a point, that they could then use to gather support to actually change the voting system. But this requires effort. In real life votes, I do this, most people I know do this. We go through the effort of voting for candidates and policies even if it's clear what each person wants is not likely to win. I don't understand those who don't.
Or maybe just keep it as it is but hide the results until the voting ends? So low hnt wallets aren’t discouraged from voting. (edited)
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Tarek
Or maybe just keep it as it is but hide the results until the voting ends? So low hnt wallets aren’t discouraged from voting. (edited)
I'd be in favor of that. We could not use the exact current implementation, because all votes are transactions on the chain (so visible to everyone as soon as you vote), #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 proposes an entirely different voting power mechanism, but also proposes "Commit-and-Reveal", where votes are secret until the voting period ends. I'm not saying we can't do that with the current 1HNT-1Vote concept, just that it would require someone to think through how to implement it and then write it up.
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krby
I'd be in favor of that. We could not use the exact current implementation, because all votes are transactions on the chain (so visible to everyone as soon as you vote), #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 proposes an entirely different voting power mechanism, but also proposes "Commit-and-Reveal", where votes are secret until the voting period ends. I'm not saying we can't do that with the current 1HNT-1Vote concept, just that it would require someone to think through how to implement it and then write it up.
The issue with a commit-reveal voting scheme is that it increases the complexity and burden of voting for the end user. There is already a high barrier to participation in decentralised governance, so we'd need to nail the UX to make sure that it does not further reduce participation. Also, does Helium have any kind of OP_RETURN or other arbitrary data field in transaction metadata? I can't really think how you would do this without the ability to commit arbitrary data.
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Oh the other thing is that you need to persuade people to reveal their votes for them to actually count, which suffers from the exact some problem as the current system (i.e. apathy)
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krby
For someone holding very little there's very little incentive to vote - it's more or less a cosmetic exercise
I must be missing something, because I would still vote. Especially if I want to be able to have a debate later about "1 wallet 1 vote" vs "HNT weighted vote". This vote seems like a great example to be able to point back to and say: "Look! 63% of the wallets voted against, but 90% of the HNT voted for", that's clearly broken! If anyone is serious about trying to prove this point, this seems like a good vote to do it. Without those numbers in the vote, there's just this often-mentioned ghost of "all these 1HNT wallet voters won't vote", we have to change the rules! Anyone can claim anything. I'd like to see the pile of people care enough to vote, even if just to make a point, that they could then use to gather support to actually change the voting system. But this requires effort. In real life votes, I do this, most people I know do this. We go through the effort of voting for candidates and policies even if it's clear what each person wants is not likely to win. I don't understand those who don't.
I'd agree with most of this other than not understanding why people don't bother to vote when the result is a foregone conclusion (answer: because it's a foregone conclusion!). Also support the suggestion of @Tarek to keep the results hidden until finalised. I think voting would increase from both sides if this were the case.
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I'd agree with most of this other than not understanding why people don't bother to vote when the result is a foregone conclusion (answer: because it's a foregone conclusion!).
But if everyone acts that way, then it's self-fulfilling. It's also weakens the argument that the vote-by-HNT is super lopsided. Here's an opportunity for people to do more than argue in a discord channel to show that they care enough to demonstrate the voting mechanism is unfair (a clear majority or super majority of small HNT wallets losing to a minority of large HNT wallets). Is the problem small vs large wallets, or that people don't care enough? I voted yes, it seemed pretty obvious when I voted that I didn't need to vote, the result was a "foregone conclusion" but I wanted to anyway. It was worth the 0.35 USD. Part of my reason to vote is that I hope the "yes" vote wins both based on 66% of HNT and also 66% based on wallets. I want that to be true, so I helped make it true. Is the problem that people don't have enough HNT to vote? 35,000 DC is a cost, but earning 0.02HNT (at current prices) in a week or two should be possible. Or just buying 1-2 HNT on the open market? The hotspots cost way more than this. Or they don't care enough to vote just to make a point about an what they see as an unfair voting mechanism? Or don't care enough to actually vote no matter what? Or something else? If enough people are actually outraged about the voting mechanism, 0.35 USD each feels like a pretty low barrier to entry to show a clearly lopsided (wallets vs HNT) vote result. This must be just me, I don't get the mindset that doesn't vote for (what I see as) such low effort and cost. I need to stop continuing the "election mechanism for Helium" off topic conversation in this channel. I moved over to #hip-discussion, where someone else is floating a new idea.
(edited)
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Tarek
Or maybe just keep it as it is but hide the results until the voting ends? So low hnt wallets aren’t discouraged from voting. (edited)
The word “hide” does not mix with the concept of transparency and decentralization IMHO.
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so, when this passes, when does it come into effect? all the existing hotspots need to be updated by the manufacturer or does anyone know?
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NotSoAlien
so, when this passes, when does it come into effect? all the existing hotspots need to be updated by the manufacturer or does anyone know?
I would think that the code is already written. I thought I read somewhere where DeWI suggested that HIPs already come with code. So the implementation of changing Hotspots to light slots should be quick. It will take time however for the manufacturer’s to scale up for the change, . . . I think. Especially since they are so back logged.
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AndrewsMD
I would think that the code is already written. I thought I read somewhere where DeWI suggested that HIPs already come with code. So the implementation of changing Hotspots to light slots should be quick. It will take time however for the manufacturer’s to scale up for the change, . . . I think. Especially since they are so back logged.
So basically a HIP can't fail because of too much work done already? 🧐
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AndrewsMD
I would think that the code is already written. I thought I read somewhere where DeWI suggested that HIPs already come with code. So the implementation of changing Hotspots to light slots should be quick. It will take time however for the manufacturer’s to scale up for the change, . . . I think. Especially since they are so back logged.
As I understand it, there are simulated light hotspots on testnet now, and the team plans to test with physical ones on testnet soon. Even before manufacturers ship light hotspot hardware, the team could change the current heavy hotspot firmware to use the new mechanism so we're all running light hotspots on our existing hotspot hardware. I believe this is the actual plan, migrate mainnet over light hotspot firmware well before the light hotspots are available from manufacturers. As I understand it, light/heavy hotspot hardware is very similar (unlike with data-only hotspots), it's just that the RAM, CPU, and storage requirements for light hotspots is much lower.
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Ih8mypp
So basically a HIP can't fail because of too much work done already? 🧐
This is why there is sometimes a temperature check vote, to prevent a lot of code being written while nobody likes the particular change.
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Ih8mypp
So basically a HIP can't fail because of too much work done already? 🧐
No, the code is written, but not committed to the main branch yet. But is being tested on testnet. (edited)
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Okay, thanks guys
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So what's the consequence of going from a full hotspot to a light hotspot?
11:06
Would a light hotspot earn less than a regular hotspot keeping everything else constant?
11:07
Would the 3,000+ validators earn more HNT as a result of HIP55? If so how much is the increase in HNT that they would earn?
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121.5 MHz
Would the 3,000+ validators earn more HNT as a result of HIP55? If so how much is the increase in HNT that they would earn?
Validators will get the 0.9% of total rewards hotspots currently earn from POC challengers , in turn the network will not crash weekly
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BSL
Validators will get the 0.9% of total rewards hotspots currently earn from POC challengers , in turn the network will not crash weekly
Any idea on how to look up how much is the total rewards hotspots earn currently?
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121.5 MHz
Any idea on how to look up how much is the total rewards hotspots earn currently?
It’s about 1.6 million HNT a month
11:17
Validators only earn 150,000 HNT currently of the 2.5 Million Dispersed monthly
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So about 1% goes to the 3,400 validators.
11:17
How does that affect the overall network going from full node to a light node?
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121.5 MHz
So about 1% goes to the 3,400 validators.
6% of total monthly HNT dispersed goes to validators
11:18
150,000 of 2.5 million is 6%
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121.5 MHz
How does that affect the overall network going from full node to a light node?
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krby
Let's go troubleshoot this in #cli-wallet-development , that's where both the CLI wallet and the ledger wallet folks tend to hang out.
Thanks!
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So currently 6% goes to the validators. After HIP55, that would bring it up to about 7%. Am I understanding that right?
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121.5 MHz
So currently 6% goes to the validators. After HIP55, that would bring it up to about 7%. Am I understanding that right?
Yes and in return you get a network that runs smoother and more efficiently (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:27 AM
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How does that affect the price of hotspots? Would it drop the price from $500 currently due to lower hardware requirement?
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121.5 MHz
How does that affect the price of hotspots? Would it drop the price from $500 currently due to lower hardware requirement?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:31 AM
Light hotspots should be cheaper, but supply/demand will keep the price from dropping too much. People saying sub 300 are dreaming. Lol
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Ok. So would there be a different in earning between a full hotspot vs. a light hotspot? Obviously keeping everything else constant.
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If my math is right there's about 93,557 hotspot onboards remaining. So that's about 15% of current hotspots that aren't even online yet. If the full hotspots get upgrade/downgrade to light hotspots and earn the same, we're basically extending the ROI on the miners. Assuming they bought it from the manufacturer and not on a secondary market.
11:42
The gold spot only uses about 0.028kwh/day so even with higher electricity rate, it would only costs you a few dollars/yr.
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121.5 MHz
Ok. So would there be a different in earning between a full hotspot vs. a light hotspot? Obviously keeping everything else constant.
Read the post right above yours from ElonTusk with the attached image. It lays out the difference in earning. (edited)
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krby
Read the post right above yours from ElonTusk with the attached image. It lays out the difference in earning. (edited)
Thank you. I realized that now. But obviously the price of the miners would have to be less than what it is currently due to lower hardware requirement. It's good for new participants. But for everyone who just got started and are waiting for their hotspots to come onboard, they will have to bear the burden of an extended ROI on their miners.
11:58
What about for the validators with regards to HIP55. Are there more requirements for them to maybe have a higher uptime etc? Just trying to understand if they would also have more at stake other than obviously providing the hardware services and staking their HNTs.
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121.5 MHz
What about for the validators with regards to HIP55. Are there more requirements for them to maybe have a higher uptime etc? Just trying to understand if they would also have more at stake other than obviously providing the hardware services and staking their HNTs.
It's in the HIP document. Creating and servicing challenges will create more load on the validators. That has CPU and network overhead. If the validators don't handle that well while in the consensus group, they might be penalized, which leads to a lower chance of being elected into future CGs for a while.
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Ok. Maybe this isn't the channel to talk about this but is there any discussion on lowering the barrier entry for validators? I understand it can be difficult to lower the hardware requirement due to the technical requirements but since we're kinda heading toward lowering the barrier to entry for participants, seems like onboarding more validators would help the network overall too.
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It does decrease the value and earnings of all purchased miners. I just finally received my Bobcat order from July.. now it's less useful in the near future
12:07
And the app is not even working, voting fails 🤣. Will this HIP improve the app experience too?
12:07
Network runs much better than the app
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121.5 MHz
Ok. Maybe this isn't the channel to talk about this but is there any discussion on lowering the barrier entry for validators? I understand it can be difficult to lower the hardware requirement due to the technical requirements but since we're kinda heading toward lowering the barrier to entry for participants, seems like onboarding more validators would help the network overall too.
Not really unfortunately, only 49 validators can run the network at a time. There are already close to 3500 staked, so adding more wouldn’t really help
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🤔 Sounds like the entire network is over saturated then for hotspots and validators. I'm guessing HIP55 could be a necessary steps to improving the network?
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It’s a must, IMO
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12:12
The status quo is untenable
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One immediate problem right now is there aren't enough voters.
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BSL
Validators only earn 150,000 HNT currently of the 2.5 Million Dispersed monthly
How much do hotspots earn out of that?
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Static Laws
How much do hotspots earn out of that?
1.525M
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Thanks
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Hotspots earn the most, and the decrease in HST earnings also goes towards hotspots so if you wait a year you'll have that 0.9% back.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:25 PM
Sooo fun fact... my fleet at least, that 0.9% isn't really accurate
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I just voted for. I think removing some of the work from the hotspots will improve their ability to do what they do best.
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The 0.9 should go to low density area hotspots for stimulation to increase network coverage
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:27 PM
definitely a good one to pass in terms of performance, but the earnings loss i think is a bit of a miscalculation .... I have a fairly decent set of runners that average about .1 HNT a day
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:28 PM
yeah i just posted a screenshot above...
12:28
I'm at %2.52
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:28 PM
yeah i wish i could see your counts like in my screenshot
12:28
i have actual counts and %
12:29
you might be seeing 2% cause you're in a dense area... im a bit off grid ... so i dont witness every minute... i witness a few here n there every few hours
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
Sooo fun fact... my fleet at least, that 0.9% isn't really accurate
It's 0.9% of the total, so about 1.5% of the part that currently goes towards hotspots. Obviously hotspots that earn below or equal to average are having a large percentage of their earnings from challenging. If you turn your radio of you even have 100% of your earnings from challenging...
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What % it constitutes for your own earnings is not particularly relevant - the 0.9% is the % of HNT mined, so about 25,000 HNT per month is now not going to Hotspots. If a large % of your earnings are from challenge creation that’s indicative of not enough witnesses or density
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ergo, you're demotivating people from expanding to low coverage areas
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Ih8mypp
ergo, you're demotivating people from expanding to low coverage areas
It's just encouraging them to buy more then one
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groot
It's 0.9% of the total, so about 1.5% of the part that currently goes towards hotspots. Obviously hotspots that earn below or equal to average are having a large percentage of their earnings from challenging. If you turn your radio of you even have 100% of your earnings from challenging...
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:32 PM
truth, but the second part of the equation is reality where the other is just a number of totals... 0.9% makes it sound small, which in grand total it is... but on a per hotspot basis, it could make or break the existence of a hotspot that is getting about 20% of its rewards from challenges
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groot
It's just encouraging them to buy more then one
I assume most people just have their own property to set one up at
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Basically all the hotspots alone that don't witness anyone will not earn any more
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capcom
What % it constitutes for your own earnings is not particularly relevant - the 0.9% is the % of HNT mined, so about 25,000 HNT per month is now not going to Hotspots. If a large % of your earnings are from challenge creation that’s indicative of not enough witnesses or density
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:33 PM
It is, but it is also indicative of a person doing what helium actually wants.... not compact yourself close to other hotspots!
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To be fair if we do nothing no one will earn anything because the network breaks down every other day.
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Static Laws
Basically all the hotspots alone that don't witness anyone will not earn any more
That’s right. But on average this is 0.0375 HNT per month. I don’t think that’s really a relevant incentive
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groot
To be fair if we do nothing no one will earn anything because the network breaks down every other day.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:34 PM
no argument about if it should/shouldnt pass, i believe it is a necessary evil, i just think that the blast radius will be felt far more than anticipated
12:34
I also believe it will drive people away from spreading the network out.. it makes more sense to just huddle up with people
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capcom
That’s right. But on average this is 0.0375 HNT per month. I don’t think that’s really a relevant incentive
Say that now at current price. Maybe in 10 years it something.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
It’s in every single breakdown of how HNT mining works
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Static Laws
Say that now at current price. Maybe in 10 years it something.
I’m mostly focused on % of emissions. If we want to better improve incentives for new coverage areas I totally agree we should do that. But let’s not pretend that 0.9% split across 600k hotspots is doing that today
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
I also believe it will drive people away from spreading the network out.. it makes more sense to just huddle up with people
Let's not pretend you are going to put a hotspot in the middle of nowhere for 0.0375HNT.
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Static Laws
How much do hotspots earn out of that?
Around 1.6 million out of the 2.5 million distributed
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Jinx
😄 1
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groot
Let's not pretend you are going to put a hotspot in the middle of nowhere for 0.0375HNT.
But with two hotspots and a bit of effort to find a location, you could have PoC rewards and the network gets better coverage! (edited)
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121.5 MHz
Ok. So would there be a different in earning between a full hotspot vs. a light hotspot? Obviously keeping everything else constant.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 12:36 PM
All hotspots will become light hotspots
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groot
Let's not pretend you are going to put a hotspot in the middle of nowhere for 0.0375HNT.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:36 PM
Naaa not in the middle of nowhere but, would you argue that im kind of in the middle of nowhere? but also in a GREAT area in terms of where helium wants coverage spread? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112VEhPPMYF95neEEwwgnckHej4bgZ1roo13SMx18RSJxLq6JuiK
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krby
But with two hotspots and a bit of effort to find a location, you could have PoC rewards and the network gets better coverage! (edited)
Exactly, so just deploy more then one.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
Naaa not in the middle of nowhere but, would you argue that im kind of in the middle of nowhere? but also in a GREAT area in terms of where helium wants coverage spread? https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112VEhPPMYF95neEEwwgnckHej4bgZ1roo13SMx18RSJxLq6JuiK
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:37 PM
to be clear, I fully assert.. this is not me spoofing.. that is my address...
12:37
so people like this, will suffer
12:38
so why stay here? why not just huddle in the city and crowd up and cover the same area since i make more
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
so why stay here? why not just huddle in the city and crowd up and cover the same area since i make more
That would be more a discussion on the effectiveness of HIP15/17 than HIP55.
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groot
Exactly, so just deploy more then one.
I talked myself into two when I got in initially, because I thought I could rely on a hotspot explorer shows 1.5mi away from my home, but it turned out that one wasn't actually there (I did some war driving later). I had to think harder about it because of the initial cost and effort to find a place for the other one, but I did it.
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capcom
I’m mostly focused on % of emissions. If we want to better improve incentives for new coverage areas I totally agree we should do that. But let’s not pretend that 0.9% split across 600k hotspots is doing that today
I Agree. I currently build out areas with very few hotspots only to create coverage. The mining incentives are not enough to deploy there. I'm doing it to develop coverage for my sensors and that's the incentive side.
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Yea, I do think there are some good ideas for how to improve rewards in new areas. It’s just really nothing to do with this HIP imo, and people claiming that the 0.0375/mo (on average) matters to these deployments are difficult to take seriously
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groot
That would be more a discussion on the effectiveness of HIP15/17 than HIP55.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:43 PM
I see, so you're proposing an amendment to those older HIP's would be the solution. Makes sense, I think that it would be a smart idea if those happened prior to this HIP passing then.
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groot
Let's not pretend you are going to put a hotspot in the middle of nowhere for 0.0375HNT.
This is by saying the 0.9% remains with all hotspots. If you dedicate it to low coverage areas only, the number should increase. Its an intensive till more show up so they can earn from witnessing
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:46 PM
Im not arguing that the this HIP is necessary, i dont think anyone at this point should be trying to argue that point. I think there just should be something done for the people that we coin as "doing what we REALLY want hotspot owners to do.... spread out" so they are incentivized to continue the movement rather than pile into cities getting rwards for covering the exact same area as one another
12:47
It's like we're literally promoting partnered gaming of the system
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Ih8mypp
This is by saying the 0.9% remains with all hotspots. If you dedicate it to low coverage areas only, the number should increase. Its an intensive till more show up so they can earn from witnessing
This is what HIP15/17 is for?
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Someone has to write the proposals
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:47 PM
get close and get rwarded, who cares if you cover the same area... sort of thing
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The 15/17 author wasn’t under any illusion that the values proposed were perfect, but there are a lot of knobs to turn and someone needs to propose how to turn them
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I always put up 4 to 5 in a new area if I'm creating coverage for the reason the challenge rewards are not enough.
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12:49
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capcom
The 15/17 author wasn’t under any illusion that the values proposed were perfect, but there are a lot of knobs to turn and someone needs to propose how to turn them
I don't think there is any set of 'perfect' values for HIP17 since what works for certain areas may harm others, etc.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:51 PM
There is no perfect set in stone value because we evolve... the value should be a logical calculation of some sort that actually scales as we scale
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groot
I don't think there is any set of 'perfect' values for HIP17 since what works for certain areas may harm others, etc.
Yup, someone just needs to spend the time doing some analysis on how it’s working today. We don’t have any bandwidth right now
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:51 PM
the thing that is super annoying though... we literally could remove 300K hotspots from the network, and the actual helium coverage would be exactly the same! ... thats not right
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
the thing that is super annoying though... we literally could remove 300K hotspots from the network, and the actual helium coverage would be exactly the same! ... thats not right
I'll be honest, if you're running sensors, you want multiple hotspots for redundancy and backup if one is down.
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Static Laws
I'll be honest, if you're running sensors, you want multiple hotspots for redundancy and backup if one is down.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:54 PM
agree, but these are LoRa, so it doesnt require 10 in a single hex... 2 at best
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you might need a little more to account for setups being down as they are not professional hosted
12:55
but the 10+ per hex coverage around here is nuts
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Ih8mypp
you might need a little more to account for setups being down as they are not professional hosted
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:56 PM
fair point though, for sure
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Ih8mypp
but the 10+ per hex coverage around here is nuts
I'm the opposite there are not enough around me I have to have multiple hotspots to make it worth it.
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Static Laws
I'm the opposite there are not enough around me I have to have multiple hotspots to make it worth it.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:58 PM
definitely a better problem to have though imo
12:59
just because you can do legit work
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I earn network average on most
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Static Laws
I earn network average on most
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 12:59 PM
yeah and to me, i honestly feel that is a problem... the incentives for being huddled are far superior to those of people spreading out to cover the network
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Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:00 PM
Agree
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Let's do math. Each hotspot constructs challenges statistically 3 times per day. Today one challenge is rewarded 0.0025-0.0026HNT, so ~0.0075HNT per day. On the other hand, daily earnings (7D average) is 0.12 HNT/day per hotspot. So, I get ~6,3% of earnings simply taken away!!! How do you get 0.9% ???
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13:03
I voted against.
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voting is pointless anyway
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Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:05 PM
Its fun to burn a little hnt 😆
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Static Laws
Its fun to burn a little hnt 😆
how many
13:06
i will vote against
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Resident
how many
Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:08 PM
I think it depends on how much you have I could be wrong
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And this is just the beginning. Finally the hotspotters will earn peanut’s
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it do not effect my HNT stock ?
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Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:10 PM
The real question is can the validators handle all the challenges?
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bgminer22
Let's do math. Each hotspot constructs challenges statistically 3 times per day. Today one challenge is rewarded 0.0025-0.0026HNT, so ~0.0075HNT per day. On the other hand, daily earnings (7D average) is 0.12 HNT/day per hotspot. So, I get ~6,3% of earnings simply taken away!!! How do you get 0.9% ???
That's not linear. When you challenge a relayed hotspot, you will get 0 rewards... This hip will solve that problem
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rkn
That's not linear. When you challenge a relayed hotspot, you will get 0 rewards... This hip will solve that problem
Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:11 PM
Not always
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when will bi HIP 55 aktiv ?
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Static Laws
Not always
yeah, most cases you get between 0 a 2 witnesses
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
yes
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Hotspots will be obsolete without this hip, it's just a matter of time. SD problems, syncing problems will happen more often
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darth savaloy 02/21/2022 1:14 PM
so the validators get an extra 25.000 hnt to share between them nice
13:15
i think how fast the network is growing ifsomething isnt done it will grind to a halt
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the HIP is fine, but it should have put any decision making on the 0.9% in a different proposal
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bgminer22
Let's do math. Each hotspot constructs challenges statistically 3 times per day. Today one challenge is rewarded 0.0025-0.0026HNT, so ~0.0075HNT per day. On the other hand, daily earnings (7D average) is 0.12 HNT/day per hotspot. So, I get ~6,3% of earnings simply taken away!!! How do you get 0.9% ???
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:16 PM
0.9% is the amount from the total rewards issued per epoch. It is not the rewards % from you. Also that math isn't right. It's about 1.5% of an average hotspot's current rewards. (edited)
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Ih8mypp
the HIP is fine, but it should have put any decision making on the 0.9% in a different proposal
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:17 PM
Why? The party that does the work gets the payment. Why would you ask them to work for free?
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they get enough as it is
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13:18
and its better spent on hotspot placement
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Ih8mypp
they get enough as it is
Maybe do the math one day on how much a validator is rewarded, what their running costs are.
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I've read up on it based on what the staking pools are showing on their calculations
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Static Laws 02/21/2022 1:20 PM
You can stake your hnt to recover the loss in miner rewards
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I don't mind the loss myself, I get silly rewards because I'm high up in a crowded city. I don't care for my personal situation.
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:22 PM
How much does your HS earn per month?
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it depends on how stable kerlink keeps its firmware, but it generally does about 0.5-0.7HNT per day
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:23 PM
That’s great
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it is, but it's silly
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Ih8mypp
it depends on how stable kerlink keeps its firmware, but it generally does about 0.5-0.7HNT per day
0.12hnt on average don't spread misinformation
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rkn
0.12hnt on average don't spread misinformation
he's asking about mine
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Ih8mypp
he's asking about mine
sorry, my bad lool
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0,5 is a lot atm Oo
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:24 PM
For perspective, an average validator only earns like 43 HNT / month. And that’s with the requirement to lock up 10k HNT for 6-7 months.
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deasydoesit
For perspective, an average validator only earns like 43 HNT / month. And that’s with the requirement to lock up 10k HNT for 6-7 months.
Could you also provide a ballpark running cost?
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:25 PM
$50-$250
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if you're under a decent azure/aws umbrella contract you can get dirt cheap powerful hosting
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deasydoesit
$50-$250
Thank you for driving my point home🙃
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bgminer22
Let's do math. Each hotspot constructs challenges statistically 3 times per day. Today one challenge is rewarded 0.0025-0.0026HNT, so ~0.0075HNT per day. On the other hand, daily earnings (7D average) is 0.12 HNT/day per hotspot. So, I get ~6,3% of earnings simply taken away!!! How do you get 0.9% ???
0.9% of the newly minted HNT (so approximately 25,000 HNT per month) goes to the challenge construction function. that's all there really is to it. your own % will be highly variable. for example, a lone wolf with no other hotspots nearby would have 100% of their earnings from challenge creation
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Ih8mypp
if you're under a decent azure/aws umbrella contract you can get dirt cheap powerful hosting
deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:28 PM
Running a validator in shared tenancy is brutal for CG performance. Also, the egress fees on major cloud providers (AWS, GCP, Azure) are more than the server costs. All that to say, running a validator isn’t some pie in the sky get rich quick scheme. Folks are very much fighting the good ole fight as with HS owners.
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deasydoesit
For perspective, an average validator only earns like 43 HNT / month. And that’s with the requirement to lock up 10k HNT for 6-7 months.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:28 PM
By way of comparison, for that hnt, you could set up 13 hotspots, making you on average 51hnt port month.
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:29 PM
Yeah, I sometimes laugh at myself for running validators instead of … just buying hotspots
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deasydoesit
Yeah, I sometimes laugh at myself for running validators instead of … just buying hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:29 PM
Yeah, thank you. 💜
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But don't you need more locations for hotspots though?
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deasydoesit
Running a validator in shared tenancy is brutal for CG performance. Also, the egress fees on major cloud providers (AWS, GCP, Azure) are more than the server costs. All that to say, running a validator isn’t some pie in the sky get rich quick scheme. Folks are very much fighting the good ole fight as with HS owners.
the bandwidth cost is negligible if hotspots don't need to d/l the chains
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:30 PM
Sure, but that’s just one of the many reasons why this HIP is important
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deasydoesit
Yeah, I sometimes laugh at myself for running validators instead of … just buying hotspots
Well, as you’re mainly getting shit in this channel, thank you for running them😉
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Yes, the HIP is important, and no, the 0.9% shouldn't shift to validators is my stance as I argue these should do towards increasing network coverage
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Even if some challenges fail for some reasons, we still may have - (minus) 5% earnings, and I mean an [average] hotspot, which earn 0.12 today. People, please vote against. 0.9% is a lie. Just because miners don't get 100% of epoch rewards 😉 (edited)
facepalm 2
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bgminer22
Even if some challenges fail for some reasons, we still may have - (minus) 5% earnings, and I mean an [average] hotspot, which earn 0.12 today. People, please vote against. 0.9% is a lie. Just because miners don't get 100% of epoch rewards 😉 (edited)
You will have zero, since the network will most likely grind to a halt in the foreseeable future, without light hotspots made possible by this HIP, just to clarify. (edited)
10k 3
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Ih8mypp
Yes, the HIP is important, and no, the 0.9% shouldn't shift to validators is my stance as I argue these should do towards increasing network coverage
deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:34 PM
Why would I perform work for free, work which significantly risks my modest CG rewards by inviting ddos by hotspot while in consensus, especially when you’ve already alluded to the ROI being FAR GREATER for HS owners? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
By way of comparison, for that hnt, you could set up 13 hotspots, making you on average 51hnt port month.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:35 PM
Wait, I totally screwed up the math. Lol I basically had hnt at $1. It's actually far far worse. 10k hnt could get/install 313 hotspots, making on average 1238hnt a month. 🤯
13:35
Vs 43 hnt per month for a validator (edited)
13:36
Anyone complaining about validators getting too much is out of their mind
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:36 PM
Amen
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Wait, I totally screwed up the math. Lol I basically had hnt at $1. It's actually far far worse. 10k hnt could get/install 313 hotspots, making on average 1238hnt a month. 🤯
I would still rather have one validator than 313 hotspots running cg. (edited)
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deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:37 PM
And let’s not forget the vast majority of validators are just OG HS owners..
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groot
I would still rather have one validator than 313 hotspots running cg. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:37 PM
Well yeah. The p2p can't handle what we're doing. :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Wait, I totally screwed up the math. Lol I basically had hnt at $1. It's actually far far worse. 10k hnt could get/install 313 hotspots, making on average 1238hnt a month. 🤯
How many hotspots per location are you referring to?
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121.5 MHz
How many hotspots per location are you referring to?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:39 PM
I didn't say anything about location.
13:40
You just need the global average earnings of a hotspot. (edited)
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Recent history shows that the validators (consensus group) sometimes have real difficulties to drag the blockchain. Adding one more function will not help.
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I was just analyzing your comparison.
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121.5 MHz
I was just analyzing your comparison.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:42 PM
How? Again, locations are not a factor.
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deasydoesit
Why would I perform work for free, work which significantly risks my modest CG rewards by inviting ddos by hotspot while in consensus, especially when you’ve already alluded to the ROI being FAR GREATER for HS owners? (edited)
a 4.3 conn/sec per validator a ddos? ^^
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:43 PM
Those that do the work, get the pay. This isn't difficult.
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bgminer22
Recent history shows that the validators (consensus group) sometimes have real difficulties to drag the blockchain. Adding one more function will not help.
Those stalls were about much much much bigger blocks than anyone including the devs expected.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:43 PM
And frankly they are vastly underpaid for what they do.
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Ih8mypp
a 4.3 conn/sec per validator a ddos? ^^
deasydoesit 02/21/2022 1:43 PM
I don’t know where you got that number from, but yea, CG performance degradation due to load is a commonly known aspect of validator of operations
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Those that do the work, get the pay. This isn't difficult.
Would be great though, quit your job, someone else fills in, you get paid regardless and your replacement gets nothing
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bgminer22
Recent history shows that the validators (consensus group) sometimes have real difficulties to drag the blockchain. Adding one more function will not help.
What about the sub-functions that get removed as part of this change? And its simpler to upgrade validator performance than keep trying to squeeze performance out of hotspots. If challenge function is not moved from hotspots some of the old 1Gb hotspots may cease to perform reliably in the future. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:44 PM
coughstate channelscough
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groot
Would be great though, quit your job, someone else fills in, you get paid regardless and your replacement gets nothing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 1:45 PM
Shit, sign me up! Lol
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waveform
What about the sub-functions that get removed as part of this change? And its simpler to upgrade validator performance than keep trying to squeeze performance out of hotspots. If challenge function is not moved from hotspots some of the old 1Gb hotspots may cease to perform reliably in the future. (edited)
In the future? 😬 Light hotspots can't come soon enough.
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If we make an entry fee for light hotspots of $250 + whatever the Makers charge that should control the looming fear of congestion and then we launch HIP55 immediately. (The $250 can be adjusted and control of hoarders) just a tot (edited)
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bgminer22
Even if some challenges fail for some reasons, we still may have - (minus) 5% earnings, and I mean an [average] hotspot, which earn 0.12 today. People, please vote against. 0.9% is a lie. Just because miners don't get 100% of epoch rewards 😉 (edited)
this is wildly inaccurate, but you do you!
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disc6789
If we make an entry fee for light hotspots of $250 + whatever the Makers charge that should control the looming fear of congestion and then we launch HIP55 immediately. (The $250 can be adjusted and control of hoarders) just a tot (edited)
DeadStock_LTD 02/21/2022 3:14 PM
As a current miner with multiple hotspots, I like this idea. I doubt helium inc would agree since their goal is probably to deploy as many hotspots as possible to make the network attractive to future users of the network. If you are down, let's collaborate on a HIP.
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DeadStock_LTD
As a current miner with multiple hotspots, I like this idea. I doubt helium inc would agree since their goal is probably to deploy as many hotspots as possible to make the network attractive to future users of the network. If you are down, let's collaborate on a HIP.
I sure will love to 👍
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bgminer22
Even if some challenges fail for some reasons, we still may have - (minus) 5% earnings, and I mean an [average] hotspot, which earn 0.12 today. People, please vote against. 0.9% is a lie. Just because miners don't get 100% of epoch rewards 😉 (edited)
ummm....what?
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Keenan
ummm....what?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 4:17 PM
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shadowmeree 02/21/2022 4:44 PM
Am I missing something? This seems to be one of the few HIPs that are universally beneficial and should just be a formality, but many are voting against it?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Always making fun of my math skills. SMH. Lol
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shadowmeree
Am I missing something? This seems to be one of the few HIPs that are universally beneficial and should just be a formality, but many are voting against it?
I think people just don’t truly understand the benefit. All some can see is reduced earnings.
16:47
They under appreciate the value of a functioning blockchain.
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shadowmeree 02/21/2022 4:47 PM
If anything earnings will increase. Even if we're just considering challenges, half of mine don't reach a beaconer or get rewarded anyway
16:48
Not to mention the soul crushing feeling when you are challenged by a relayed hotspot
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shadowmeree
Am I missing something? This seems to be one of the few HIPs that are universally beneficial and should just be a formality, but many are voting against it?
do not worry, the validators are in power now... they will not let you down
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shadowmeree
If anything earnings will increase. Even if we're just considering challenges, half of mine don't reach a beaconer or get rewarded anyway
Yep. I agree. People get stuck on reduced earnings, and they get stuck on “But I paid $X amount for a full miner, I’m still waiting for the miner I ordered after waiting 9 months or more, and now it’s gonna be cheaper???!!!”
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milos_kriz
do not worry, the validators are in power now... they will not let you down
They’ve already been running the network since august. Moving challenge creation should be the least of your concerns
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unfortunately this is only another patch in the patchy quilt...
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shadowmeree 02/21/2022 4:51 PM
I appreciate the concerns on whether validators can cope, but that applies irrespective of this change imo
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capcom
They’ve already been running the network since august. Moving challenge creation should be the least of your concerns
and with their above-average interest of being involved in the network activities, alongside powerful governance resources, validators can actually buy the results of any voting according to their interests... sweet 😄 (edited)
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If only there was a HIP you could get involved with that proposed a detailed change to the voting system 🤔
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gristleking 02/21/2022 4:55 PM
I hear we're responsible for this network.
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hahahaha ok.. I get it...
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gristleking
I hear we're responsible for this network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 4:56 PM
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/21/2022 8:47 PM
We definitely need this change, if you dont think so, then you are not actually paying attention!
20:49
We also need some 15 and 17 adjustments too, Im trying to wrap my head around what I can, from the commit trails in github
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In the explanation of this HIP, they underline single point of failures as a big motivation. But AFAIK the last two times the blockchain halted, it was because of validators lagging behind somehow? Won't this put more stress on them, how can we be sure they will perform? Is there an incentive/disincentive structure in place for this? Thanks for clarifying.
22:24
I understand the incentive to be monitary, but is there any additional guarantees/structures in place? Seems to be a bit counter intuitive for me to centralize things more to reduce point of failures. Probably missing something.
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I guess this section somewhat talks about it
This plan does consider and allow for Validator slashing to the extent the data payloads exchanged between the Light Hotspots, the Validators, and the Consensus Group will include attestation data. This can can enable a slashing mechanism. It does not however propose the slashing implementation itself, that could be proposed in a future HIP.
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Thanks for the video. I understand the theory behind this change, and the reason for it. I also understand the concept of centralizing infrastructure, and that their ability to provide a service is probably better than each hotspots's, this is the reason why companies and services like Google, AWS, Azure etc have more or less all cloud compute power today. My question was regarding single points of failure and centralization though. (edited)
22:34
Thanks for further explanations.
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T-Rep
Thanks for the video. I understand the theory behind this change, and the reason for it. I also understand the concept of centralizing infrastructure, and that their ability to provide a service is probably better than each hotspots's, this is the reason why companies and services like Google, AWS, Azure etc have more or less all cloud compute power today. My question was regarding single points of failure and centralization though. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 10:35 PM
Oh to be clear, it wasn't in response to your post. Just thought it was useful to be in the channel. 🙂
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Oh, sorry, bad timing, my bad!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh to be clear, it wasn't in response to your post. Just thought it was useful to be in the channel. 🙂
Thanks for the instructional video!
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T-Rep
Oh, sorry, bad timing, my bad!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 10:42 PM
No worries 🙂
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T-Rep
In the explanation of this HIP, they underline single point of failures as a big motivation. But AFAIK the last two times the blockchain halted, it was because of validators lagging behind somehow? Won't this put more stress on them, how can we be sure they will perform? Is there an incentive/disincentive structure in place for this? Thanks for clarifying.
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/21/2022 10:58 PM
From what I know, a lot of lagging is due to the code
22:58
And validators not running their full potential because of that (edited)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
And validators not running their full potential because of that (edited)
Interesting!
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Interesting!
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/21/2022 11:10 PM
I’m not completely sure if it’s true, just something I’m starting to see being said more often
23:10
Anyways
23:10
Good Night all
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No offense to gristleking, but how can you earn more when the total rewards becomes less. You will definitely be rewarded more consistently, but on average you cannot earn more.
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madrid123 🇨🇭 02/21/2022 11:18 PM
Hi, I have read the update on twitter, what is now still a little bit unclear is when will these light hotspots be released?
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groot
No offense to gristleking, but how can you earn more when the total rewards becomes less. You will definitely be rewarded more consistently, but on average you cannot earn more.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:22 PM
Well if the missing rewards due to p2p issues is greater than the loss due to the challenge rewards moving away, then yes, you would earn more.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well if the missing rewards due to p2p issues is greater than the loss due to the challenge rewards moving away, then yes, you would earn more.
No you wouldn't, because while you may miss a reward now, you will get a bigger reward later when someone else is having those p2p issues and thus in that epoch their share of the pie is allocated to you.
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groot
No you wouldn't, because while you may miss a reward now, you will get a bigger reward later when someone else is having those p2p issues and thus in that epoch their share of the pie is allocated to you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:23 PM
That's not true. Just because you missed a reward doesn't mean you will make up that loss later.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's not true. Just because you missed a reward doesn't mean you will make up that loss later.
So you're basically saying that you are so special that you have more p2p issues than someone else? Let's be clear I don't think that it will have a significant impact but on average hotspots will earn 1.5% less.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:24 PM
The epochs you don't miss can have less rewards per hotspot than the epoch you missed.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The epochs you don't miss can have less rewards per hotspot than the epoch you missed.
Yeah sure, we're always saying look at some long term averages but now all of a sudden you are throwing that out to validate your point?
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groot
So you're basically saying that you are so special that you have more p2p issues than someone else? Let's be clear I don't think that it will have a significant impact but on average hotspots will earn 1.5% less.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:26 PM
1.5% less than what it is right now, yes. But the rewards per epoch will go up with less p2p issues.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
1.5% less than what it is right now, yes. But the rewards per epoch will go up with less p2p issues.
Hah, no. The rewards per epoch are fixed 😅
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groot
Hah, no. The rewards per epoch are fixed 😅
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:27 PM
No, the max is fixed. We've been falling short of that target for some time now.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No, the max is fixed. We've been falling short of that target for some time now.
Which is due to block times, and has absolutely nothing to do with p2p issues.
23:28
Read it up, the rewards per epoch are fixed. The thing you are referring to is that we don't have as many epochs a day as we should have and thus the rewards per day fall short of what they should be.
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groot
Which is due to block times, and has absolutely nothing to do with p2p issues.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:29 PM
It's p2p losing transactions that should have been rewarded. Block times even out. Lost transactions don't.
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It doesn't matter if p2p loses 90% of transactions, the remaining 10% would be rewarded the full pot...
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groot
Read it up, the rewards per epoch are fixed. The thing you are referring to is that we don't have as many epochs a day as we should have and thus the rewards per day fall short of what they should be.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:30 PM
Wait... We don't have as many epochs per day? Thought that was fixed?
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We have a target block time of 60 seconds, a target epoch length of 30 blocks. If epochs are long due to elections going astray, or blocks take longer for some reason we have less epochs per day. And thus the minted hnt of that day will be short of target.
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groot
We have a target block time of 60 seconds, a target epoch length of 30 blocks. If epochs are long due to elections going astray, or blocks take longer for some reason we have less epochs per day. And thus the minted hnt of that day will be short of target.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:32 PM
What is the root cause of long blocks?
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Hence my original point, you are on average not going to earn more when the total rewards for your group is less. You will earn more consistently with this HIP since less reward events are lost, but you will get rewarded less per reward event for exactly the same reason: there are more successfull events. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:34 PM
Ok, so how do we get the epochs per day back to where they should be?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ok, so how do we get the epochs per day back to where they should be?
By decreasing the amount of transactions in the reward blocks, exactly the opposite of what moving the challenge creation to validators will accomplish. That is why the smarties that wrote this HIP included something to dynamically change the amount of poc events to keep it feasible. Less challenges is not a problem, because again, rewards are fixed and thus you will just earn more per event when there are less events or less per event if there are more events. (edited)
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groot
By decreasing the amount of transactions in the reward blocks, exactly the opposite of what moving the challenge creation to validators will accomplish. That is why the smarties that wrote this HIP included something to dynamically change the amount of poc events to keep it feasible. Less challenges is not a problem, because again, rewards are fixed and thus you will just earn more per event when there are less events or less per event if there are more events. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:39 PM
But by decreasing the transactions even more, rewards are going to be even less consistent, not more. (edited)
23:40
What's it going to take to get the cg to process more transactions?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But by decreasing the transactions even more, rewards are going to be even less consistent, not more. (edited)
Exactly, so part of the consistency created by light hotspots will be offset by the ever decreasing challenge rate as the network grows.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What's it going to take to get the cg to process more transactions?
A lot of work by the smart minds behind this whole thing. Good thing they don't have to spend their time on libp2p, seed nodes and stuff like that anymore when light hotspots go through.
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groot
Exactly, so part of the consistency created by light hotspots will be offset by the ever decreasing challenge rate as the network grows.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:44 PM
We're already down to 3. Can't turn that knob much further. 😅
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groot
A lot of work by the smart minds behind this whole thing. Good thing they don't have to spend their time on libp2p, seed nodes and stuff like that anymore when light hotspots go through.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:46 PM
Bigger cg? Parallel cg's? Task specific cg's? 😁
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Bigger cg? Parallel cg's? Task specific cg's? 😁
Have you ever been in a project group where meeting with more people actually sped things up? Neither have I.
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groot
Have you ever been in a project group where meeting with more people actually sped things up? Neither have I.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:49 PM
Yes, but also, divide and conquer 😉
23:50
"Many hands make light (hotspots) work" lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, but also, divide and conquer 😉
Divide and conquer doesn't usually work out so well when you can't trust each other.
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groot
Divide and conquer doesn't usually work out so well when you can't trust each other.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/21/2022 11:51 PM
Well it's a good thing this is set up to be a trustless system. 🙂
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T-Rep
In the explanation of this HIP, they underline single point of failures as a big motivation. But AFAIK the last two times the blockchain halted, it was because of validators lagging behind somehow? Won't this put more stress on them, how can we be sure they will perform? Is there an incentive/disincentive structure in place for this? Thanks for clarifying.
@groot do you have any insight on this? Thanks
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Tim | LongAP 02/21/2022 11:53 PM
The chain halts had nothing to do (directly) with this HIP nor will be fixed by it.
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@groot do you have any insight on this? Thanks
There is an incentive system, if they perform badly they will accumulate penalties that will lessen their chances of being in CG. The validators are performant machines and as Tim said, there wasn't much they could've done about it.
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Tim | LongAP
The chain halts had nothing to do (directly) with this HIP nor will be fixed by it.
Ok!
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groot
There is an incentive system, if they perform badly they will accumulate penalties that will lessen their chances of being in CG. The validators are performant machines and as Tim said, there wasn't much they could've done about it.
Thanks m8
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groot
No offense to gristleking, but how can you earn more when the total rewards becomes less. You will definitely be rewarded more consistently, but on average you cannot earn more.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 12:02 AM
Ok just rewatched the video. The claim is you'd make more if you were down all the time due to issues that 55 would fix. Everyone else would be down rewards.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ok just rewatched the video. The claim is you'd make more if you were down all the time due to issues that 55 would fix. Everyone else would be down rewards.
A little misleading title and thumb, but that makes sense. If you are down more than average you will earn more with hip55, if you are down less than average you will earn slightly less with hip55. (edited)
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groot
A little misleading title and thumb, but that makes sense. If you are down more than average you will earn more with hip55, if you are down less than average you will earn slightly less with hip55. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 12:09 AM
Yeah, the title isn't great.
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I don't understand enough about this HIP and the underlying issues to have an educated opinion, but kind of smells like symptom fixing to me tbh. (edited)
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T-Rep
I don't understand enough about this HIP and the underlying issues to have an educated opinion, but kind of smells like symptom fixing to me tbh. (edited)
Quite the contrary actually, it paves the way for fixing the underlying issue: libp2p can’t keep up with the enormous network size
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groot
Quite the contrary actually, it paves the way for fixing the underlying issue: libp2p can’t keep up with the enormous network size
Alright. I'll take your word for it! Wish I would have invested myself in this HIP before, but time..
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I have another question. Why this hip should be so stiff? Let's say I have good broadband connection, good SD card, and I want to have the challenging option. Why don't I get the choice for it? Why the only option is to be a light hotspot?
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mixtri
I have another question. Why this hip should be so stiff? Let's say I have good broadband connection, good SD card, and I want to have the challenging option. Why don't I get the choice for it? Why the only option is to be a light hotspot?
Because then other hotspots would need to know your hotspot address, and we would be back to p2p, which is what helium is trying to get rid of
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Ok thank you for the replies. So it is implementation hassle. So now the hotspots will only know the validators addresses.
01:47
Let's see how it works. I'm curious. I'm just wondering if the bottleneck is transferred to another part of the network or it is a real solution.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Cool. But I'm wondering what's happening if one validator fails. It should reflect much more to the network compared to one hotspot failure, right? But if validators have 100% uptime then that should not be an issue
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No validator can guarantee 100% uptime, but if its down then that will be reflected by the heartbeat and it will be taken out of rotation (edited)
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groot
A little misleading title and thumb, but that makes sense. If you are down more than average you will earn more with hip55, if you are down less than average you will earn slightly less with hip55. (edited)
Pretty much came here to same there same thing - there aren’t more rewards - the rewards will be more consistent (which I’m all for), but if your miners uptime is 90% and goes to 100% (hypothetically) and everyone else’s miners do the same then the rewards per beacon will be lower but average out the same. The people with lower than average uptime will benefit and those with above average uptime will suffer. I think those of us in to helium enough to be on discord have probably (?) got our miners of relay so we’ll see a down tick in rewards from a bunch of (then previously) relayed miners getting a larger portion of the POC rewards
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cheesus
Pretty much came here to same there same thing - there aren’t more rewards - the rewards will be more consistent (which I’m all for), but if your miners uptime is 90% and goes to 100% (hypothetically) and everyone else’s miners do the same then the rewards per beacon will be lower but average out the same. The people with lower than average uptime will benefit and those with above average uptime will suffer. I think those of us in to helium enough to be on discord have probably (?) got our miners of relay so we’ll see a down tick in rewards from a bunch of (then previously) relayed miners getting a larger portion of the POC rewards
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/22/2022 4:06 AM
The rewards that relay HS are missing are the challenger, so it won't increase based on that. But the rewards of PoC events that silently fail for all PoC participants is the increase referred to. Unfortunately ETL is down at the moment so it's not easy to give you a number for that. And yes, I have noticed that we suck at naming things. 😜 Full HS vs Light Hotspots is a perfect example. 🤷‍♂️
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
The rewards that relay HS are missing are the challenger, so it won't increase based on that. But the rewards of PoC events that silently fail for all PoC participants is the increase referred to. Unfortunately ETL is down at the moment so it's not easy to give you a number for that. And yes, I have noticed that we suck at naming things. 😜 Full HS vs Light Hotspots is a perfect example. 🤷‍♂️
Thats what I’m referring to is the failed transactions from relayed hotspots not being an issue anymore meaning currently relayed hotspots will start gaining a larger slice of the pie when they aren’t failing transactions. I also have been wanting to get a rough figure on this from ETL since the HIP was announced - hope its back online soon enough 🤞
04:14
So on average a down tick in rewards for all non-relayed miners
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cheesus
So on average a down tick in rewards for all non-relayed miners
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/22/2022 4:17 AM
After HIP55, a HS that was usually relayed won't earn more as the challenger was what they were missing. But everyone on the network has been loosing "lost PoC events" rewards due to libP2P failures. This is a growth problem more than just a relay problem. And yes, fingers crossed that ETL is back online soon for some data analysis. 😉
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NL_Miniterror_NL 02/22/2022 4:18 AM
It wont surprise me at all that i personally will see a decline in rewards per day when implemented😒
04:18
But overall health of the networkwill be better😂
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/22/2022 4:19 AM
If Challenging makes up a large amount of rewards, than those people will see a negative impact. But those HS have bigger issues to resolve.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
After HIP55, a HS that was usually relayed won't earn more as the challenger was what they were missing. But everyone on the network has been loosing "lost PoC events" rewards due to libP2P failures. This is a growth problem more than just a relay problem. And yes, fingers crossed that ETL is back online soon for some data analysis. 😉
But in general relayed can fail all transactions (challenge, witness and beacon) not just challenging - not sure if one is more likely than the other? Don’t get me wrong I’m all for the HIP and consistent rewards and stability in the network - I’m just assuming for the average discord goer it will equate to less rewards in the end. Would definitely be nice to pore over some ETL data - % of hotspots relayed and their % of failed transaction and which transactions etc.
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cheesus
But in general relayed can fail all transactions (challenge, witness and beacon) not just challenging - not sure if one is more likely than the other? Don’t get me wrong I’m all for the HIP and consistent rewards and stability in the network - I’m just assuming for the average discord goer it will equate to less rewards in the end. Would definitely be nice to pore over some ETL data - % of hotspots relayed and their % of failed transaction and which transactions etc.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 02/22/2022 4:29 AM
I think we're on the same page, I'm just trying to make sure that you understand that there are more PoC failure than just relayed challenges. Many of which can only be seen in logs if we have access to them.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
I think we're on the same page, I'm just trying to make sure that you understand that there are more PoC failure than just relayed challenges. Many of which can only be seen in logs if we have access to them.
Oh yep I get that - just assuming that relayed will have a higher percentage of failed transactions compared to unrelayed.
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Isn't that the relay problem will still be "the problem" although the hs doesn't do challenge anymore? Cause a hs will still need to receive challenges over the internet, but if the port isn't opened and has no public ip address, then still difficult to send the challenges to that hs as it doesn't send any request?
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if a failed beacon because of the P2P problem is sent out in your neighbourhoud, you also get no rewards, so if this fixes the problem with the CG sent out the challanges this would benifit you as well because you would more witness in that same neighbourhoud, everybody seems to forget this aswell...
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Reflection27 02/22/2022 4:58 AM
What about for us who have a miner that literally just mostly challenges? (and sometimes beacons?) cause 1 miner of mine does not do witness events- like its lucky if it does 5 witness events. I just took a look and its better then in january where it was doing maybe 1 a day.. if that. its not relayed either never has been
04:59
it doesn't even earn much as is.
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than you just are in a bad location i guess
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Reflection27
What about for us who have a miner that literally just mostly challenges? (and sometimes beacons?) cause 1 miner of mine does not do witness events- like its lucky if it does 5 witness events. I just took a look and its better then in january where it was doing maybe 1 a day.. if that. its not relayed either never has been
As above if you earn of mostly challenges you have other issues
05:00
And you won’t earn rewards from challenging anymore (as you won’t be challenging)
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Reflection27 02/22/2022 5:03 AM
it was fine till end of october honestly lol. then with some update around there it had stopped witnessing as much. and the huge gaps of nothing started more. but yeah lately that hotspot was just challenge for earning, was suprised to see that 5 witness just now over the past 24 hr.
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AlexC
No validator can guarantee 100% uptime, but if its down then that will be reflected by the heartbeat and it will be taken out of rotation (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 5:16 AM
Don’t validators need a recent heartbeat in the first place to be put into CG? (edited)
05:16
Or do you mean going offline in the middle of a CG
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Don’t validators need a recent heartbeat in the first place to be put into CG? (edited)
Yes, they do. I am talking about staked validators being online and thus available to be elected to the CG and/or issue PoCs. The system is built to handle some downtime and high penalties are applied if that happens during a CG.
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 5:27 AM
Can we please make CG 50 validators
05:27
So much better for my brain
05:27
Who chose 43
05:27
Such an un even number
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ElijahGroves 02/22/2022 5:48 AM
Did 55 pass or do we not know yet
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Can we please make CG 50 validators
Generally speaking it's better to have an uneven number so that consensus splits can be resolved. 43 seems particularly uneven though 😄
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ElijahGroves
Did 55 pass or do we not know yet
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nice "democracy" has won 🤣
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And when is the update to HIP 55 supposed to be?
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Bm3To
nice "democracy" has won 🤣
WHAT?
06:22
Total votes: 3198 Votes for: 2062/3198=64% votes against: 36% (if my math is right)
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
Such an un even number
The size of the consensus group is governed by the formula N = 3F +1, where F is the number of faulty nodes that the consensus protocol can handle and still reach consensus. Currently, F = 14 giving a group size of 43. unfortunately, 50 is not possible. 49 or 52 is 🙂
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aroulis69
Total votes: 3198 Votes for: 2062/3198=64% votes against: 36% (if my math is right)
It's not based on the number of votes though, it's based on HNT.
06:24
3,213,904 HNT in favour, 123,552 HNT against
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I like 43, it's prime and everything 🙃
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luka99
And when is the update to HIP 55 supposed to be?
I heard between 30 - 60 days
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ElijahGroves
Did 55 pass or do we not know yet
PASS
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AlexC
3,213,904 HNT in favour, 123,552 HNT against
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/22/2022 7:19 AM
wonder if last night changed anyone's mind
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luka99
And when is the update to HIP 55 supposed to be?
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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PaulM
The size of the consensus group is governed by the formula N = 3F +1, where F is the number of faulty nodes that the consensus protocol can handle and still reach consensus. Currently, F = 14 giving a group size of 43. unfortunately, 50 is not possible. 49 or 52 is 🙂
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 7:52 AM
coolcry
07:52
52 pls
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
coolcry
The core devs have said they would like a larger CG size, but when it gets bigger there are performance problems that risk the CG not being able to do its work. I assume code changes are needed to help this. Apparently quite a bit of the code is single-core limited and lots and lots of server CPUs these days optimize for more cores rather than more single core perf. (edited)
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Let’s goooo 55!! Passed easily 🤩
08:27
I know there was some dissent but this is the least contentious major HIP vote I can remember. 39 and 20 were far more intense, debate-wise
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 8:27 AM
How will challenging work?
08:27
Hotspots requesting challenges from CG members? (edited)
08:27
At the interval?
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It’s all explained in the HIP
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 8:28 AM
I’m too lazy to do that
facepalm 1
08:28
😂
08:28
I learned everything from this chat
08:28
I just forgot how hotspots will actually get the challenges
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gRPC message from the validator they are connected to
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💯 Not A Bot 💯
I’m too lazy to do that
You and tons of others it seems. This is technical, but I find this really use to get an overview of what talks to what: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1eVTK89ob66vlcEwwoVNi0BFaCEaU2DYki8778LIRWpA/edit ^^^ In the HIP, BTW. (edited)
light gateways (challengees) validator pool consensus member 1 Challengee GW transmits challenge packet Recipient GWs send unary GRPC request to challenging CG member to check if they are the target Sibyl sends a notification all connected gateways located within the target region Light GWs estab...
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 8:30 AM
What’s GW?
08:30
Gateway?
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Yes
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💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 8:30 AM
Gotcha
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krby
You and tons of others it seems. This is technical, but I find this really use to get an overview of what talks to what: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1eVTK89ob66vlcEwwoVNi0BFaCEaU2DYki8778LIRWpA/edit ^^^ In the HIP, BTW. (edited)
💯 Not A Bot 💯 02/22/2022 8:31 AM
Thanks, I’m usually all in the HIP but I’m back in school after a 5 day weekend and I’m too lazy to do it
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/22/2022 10:43 AM
Hey guys, ever need a nice example of why we need this HIP take a look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1199HQbd3RUGYyXDfLgiKUBPJ8J9Z9Viw9LKF71XmtKTuapJp9p/activity he sends challenges and for some reason, all of his challengee's fail to be "witnessed" . This behavior used to be a "relayed" hotspot only issue... the p2p plague is spreading to hotspots that are actually deemed "healthy"
10:44
Imagine how many are out there like this, that we dont know about
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I have a question, when the light hotspots firmware is released, do we still need public IP ?
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/22/2022 12:43 PM
Is there a table with an overview of all HIP and explanation?
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GlobalShock
I have a question, when the light hotspots firmware is released, do we still need public IP ?
With light hotspots, all connections are outgoing from your hotspot, so you should not need port forwarding or a VPN or anything.
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BlauerBrokkoli 02/22/2022 12:50 PM
When will HIP 55 be active
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BlauerBrokkoli
When will HIP 55 be active
#soon
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BlauerBrokkoli
When will HIP 55 be active
4 weeks maybe
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BlauerBrokkoli
Is there a table with an overview of all HIP and explanation?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 12:55 PM
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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Fizzy
#soon
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 12:57 PM
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soon may take a while
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When will this take effect now that’s it’s passed?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
BlauerBrokkoli 02/22/2022 1:00 PM
I found the same page but haven´t scrolled down 😄
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Nvm just saw the post above
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krby
With light hotspots, all connections are outgoing from your hotspot, so you should not need port forwarding or a VPN or anything.
Will this get rid of people putting multiple hotspots in one location with vpn
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sccrskills
Will this get rid of people putting multiple hotspots in one location with vpn
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 1:07 PM
No.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
Hey guys, ever need a nice example of why we need this HIP take a look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1199HQbd3RUGYyXDfLgiKUBPJ8J9Z9Viw9LKF71XmtKTuapJp9p/activity he sends challenges and for some reason, all of his challengee's fail to be "witnessed" . This behavior used to be a "relayed" hotspot only issue... the p2p plague is spreading to hotspots that are actually deemed "healthy"
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No
Why not? Its constructing challenges and dont get any response
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mK2b5BvX
Why not? Its constructing challenges and dont get any response
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 1:26 PM
No, you need to look at the "Challenged beaconer" activity, not the constructed challenge part.
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/22/2022 1:27 PM
notice the one I posted, the challenger is challenging, and all of his beaconers (challengees) get 0 witnesses!
13:28
This is the behavior we expect when being challenged by a relayed hotspot... yet this one is not relayed. HIP55 makes all the ones like this, AND relayed challengers, go away!
13:29
This means anyone crying about rewards going down, is actually going to notice quite the opposite affect when challenges are no longer controlled by crappy hotspots
13:30
Its one thing to remedy all the relayed hotspots.. its a whole different story when you remove the ones that arent relayed from the equation, that are also sliding under the radar, like the one i posted
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
This means anyone crying about rewards going down, is actually going to notice quite the opposite affect when challenges are no longer controlled by crappy hotspots
Ah ok I see now, indeed every challenge get 0 witnesses even though he challenged a hotspot with many neighbours. Sorry for my noob question, but what can be the reason for the hotspot I've posted? When you only able to Construct Challennge and than fall out of sync? To me it looks like Network problem as well? (edited)
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
This means anyone crying about rewards going down, is actually going to notice quite the opposite affect when challenges are no longer controlled by crappy hotspots
Zero-sum game. We can't all earn more since there isn't more. While those with above average downtime will earn more due to the validators fixing their problems, the ones with below average downtime are going to earn less. Might be a little, might be significant, but it certainly isn't going to be more on average. (edited)
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groot
Zero-sum game. We can't all earn more since there isn't more. While those with above average downtime will earn more due to the validators fixing their problems, the ones with below average downtime are going to earn less. Might be a little, might be significant, but it certainly isn't going to be more on average. (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/22/2022 1:47 PM
Yeah i think the impact is really just about the removal of many variables is much easier to gain consistency. I often wonder how many challenges are just never done at all due to a failing hotspot in whatever degree relayed|non-relayed|firewalled in some weird way|legit hardware issues| network issues blah blah blah... the list goes on in terms of stability of devices responsible for challenges and getting the receipts delivered in a timely manor
13:50
In a sense, the loss of 0.9% overall 📉 will be replaced by the fact that most of your challenges are now actually going to succeed and more likely be on time 📈
13:51
I've suffered 4 sent beacon errors due to this, and i normally average 14
13:51
in the last 2 weeks
13:52
thats a bit more iHNT earned, than the challenge rewards for the last 2 weeks
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When will this update be effective?
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nortexmining 02/22/2022 2:00 PM
Now that the vote is over and to help move on from the constant "they're taking our rewards/less rewards for miners" vs "this is better for the network" back and forth, where is the best channel to discuss the possibilities for future use of full hotspot's compute capabilities? It sounds like there's opportunity there but I don't understand enough about the hardware to know the true potential.
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darth savaloy 02/22/2022 2:05 PM
so has hip 55 been aproved then
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darth savaloy
so has hip 55 been aproved then
Yes
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wiss-
When will this update be effective?
4-12 weeks
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darth savaloy 02/22/2022 2:11 PM
sound
14:12
most of my rewards are poc and witness hardly any challenges
14:13
hopefully the network running smoother will beable to mint more hnt
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rawrmaan
4-12 weeks
Alright, thank you 🙂
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darth savaloy
hopefully the network running smoother will beable to mint more hnt
NL_Miniterror_NL 02/22/2022 2:26 PM
I wouldnt count on it. My assumption is as less will fail for others too who might bedoing worse then yours will take a piece from all others, so that includes you. Combine that with the fact some will go to validators gives me a end result of lower average hnt
14:27
Obviously it will be written away as other variables as a cause though
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
In a sense, the loss of 0.9% overall 📉 will be replaced by the fact that most of your challenges are now actually going to succeed and more likely be on time 📈
There was no reason for the loss of .9%. The issue with the voting is going to be that validators get to use their staked to vote with. If everyone who had a miner got an extra $400 worth of helium to vote with the results might be quite a bit different. But we tied up money in providing coverage and we don't get to vote with that money that was invested. I think that any helium that is staked shouldn't get to vote or it will always favor the people that have it staked.
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Floekun
There was no reason for the loss of .9%. The issue with the voting is going to be that validators get to use their staked to vote with. If everyone who had a miner got an extra $400 worth of helium to vote with the results might be quite a bit different. But we tied up money in providing coverage and we don't get to vote with that money that was invested. I think that any helium that is staked shouldn't get to vote or it will always favor the people that have it staked.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/22/2022 3:13 PM
The reason for the loss is simply the work for the .9% is being moved from hotspots to validator. I know this is a dead horse but think about this... if me and you worked at the same place and you made more money than me, and our boss came to you and said.. maproy, you now have to do part of the job that wrath used to do, but wrath is going to keep the pay for that job since you make more money. Would you be ok with that?
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15:13
Further, you have more bills, your house is more expensive cause you make more, yet you have to do part of my job that i used to do, but i keep the pay... you good with that?
15:15
If you voted against this HIP then you voted to not do anything that significantly improves P2P health. I monitor this metric constantly as it is generally the largest cause in down'd hotspots
15:16
The only way to solve p2p on this scale, is to move it to much more capable hardware
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Floekun
There was no reason for the loss of .9%. The issue with the voting is going to be that validators get to use their staked to vote with. If everyone who had a miner got an extra $400 worth of helium to vote with the results might be quite a bit different. But we tied up money in providing coverage and we don't get to vote with that money that was invested. I think that any helium that is staked shouldn't get to vote or it will always favor the people that have it staked.
deasydoesit 02/22/2022 4:02 PM
There was absolutely a reason for the loss of the 0.9%. Namely, why should validators do such work for free, which is what you’re suggesting they should have done.
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16:06
The animus expressed towards validators is ridiculous. These are people who, by and large, were OG helium adopters, people who ran hotspots from an early stage in the network’s growth.
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Floekun
There was no reason for the loss of .9%. The issue with the voting is going to be that validators get to use their staked to vote with. If everyone who had a miner got an extra $400 worth of helium to vote with the results might be quite a bit different. But we tied up money in providing coverage and we don't get to vote with that money that was invested. I think that any helium that is staked shouldn't get to vote or it will always favor the people that have it staked.
Then ignore the HNT weight. The “for” was still double the votes
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So how will the established "full featured" hotspots in existence be affected by 54/55. Will future "Lite hotspots" be less expensive to buy? Will existing hotspots have any advantage over "lite" versions going forward. Have any Lite miners been offered for sale and at what price? Not seeing any discussion of this seemingly important/obvious question.
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capcom
Then ignore the HNT weight. The “for” was still double the votes
But who knows if people just looked at the HNT weighted percentages and voted based on that alone. HNT weighting is terrible if everyone realized then it could be detrimental to the community as a whole. (edited)
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Then get involved in #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 otherwise it’s just chatter and what ifs
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Totally agree
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Efishnsea
So how will the established "full featured" hotspots in existence be affected by 54/55. Will future "Lite hotspots" be less expensive to buy? Will existing hotspots have any advantage over "lite" versions going forward. Have any Lite miners been offered for sale and at what price? Not seeing any discussion of this seemingly important/obvious question.
Yes light hotspots will mostly be in the $100-200 range. No full hotspots will not have any advantage over them. None have been announced for sale yet. (edited)
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Ok thanks, so is there any time estimates of when Lite Miners will be available??
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rawrmaan
Yes light hotspots will mostly be in the $100-200 range. No full hotspots will not have any advantage over them. None have been announced for sale yet. (edited)
This is great, both my neighbors can place their new $200 light hotspots in their first floor windows and scale down my roof mounted hotspot. That won't affect earnings at all....
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macbannai
This is great, both my neighbors can place their new $200 light hotspots in their first floor windows and scale down my roof mounted hotspot. That won't affect earnings at all....
Earnings are more about who you witness than your own transmit scale. Your rooftop deployment will be just fine. More cheap hotspots = more people for you to witness. You're in a position to benefit from this
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And full miners will go on sale sometime soon- why should I wait 4-5 months for my Bobcats at $500+
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rawrmaan
Earnings are more about who you witness than your own transmit scale. Your rooftop deployment will be just fine. More cheap hotspots = more people for you to witness. You're in a position to benefit from this
Good way to look at it, but cheaper hotspots still means more saturation, which I know, in many cases is inevitable.
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Yeah. Saturation is the end goal of the network. If coverage isn't everywhere, the network isn't useful. Maximize the earnings you have while you can. Every day they will be diluted more, from now til infinity
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Efishnsea
And full miners will go on sale sometime soon- why should I wait 4-5 months for my Bobcats at $500+
It's an interesting game theory point. Light hotspots may be cheaper but you might need to wait even longer, by which time you may have made the difference in price and then some
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Yes the wait for Lite later or buy Full miner sooner "game" will be interesting. Hopefully HNT will keep building value to help offset saturation- guess that's the big question! (edited)
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rawrmaan
Yeah. Saturation is the end goal of the network. If coverage isn't everywhere, the network isn't useful. Maximize the earnings you have while you can. Every day they will be diluted more, from now til infinity
Since it's likely many hosts have very little care about the network, do you think there will there ever be a point where passive income amount will be so low that hosts all over will likely bail on the antenna on their roof and want to take it all down? (edited)
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macbannai
Since it's likely many hosts have very little care about the network, do you think there will there ever be a point where passive income amount will be so low that hosts all over will likely bail on the antenna on their roof and want to take it all down? (edited)
Depends on how much you're giving them partly. But it's hard to know. I think the network wouldn't be in a great place overall if that was the case for prolonged periods of time (edited)
16:34
I give my hosts 70% so they're more incentivized to care
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rawrmaan
I give my hosts 70% so they're more incentivized to care
Wow, that's pretty generous indeed, I thought I was good at 50%. But even at 70%, if that simply turned out to be $40 bucks for to saturation, I think we could see some hotspots taken down. Unless transmitting data will still be as profitable.
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That's exactly how Helium's economics would balance out in a stagnation scenario, hypothetically. Some people would turn off their miners, increasing the profitability of the remaining miners.
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16:39
There's really very little incentive to turn off though. Especially once light hotspots are up, there will be almost no maintenance so who would turn off a thing that's earning them even $5-10/mo for no work (edited)
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rawrmaan
There's really very little incentive to turn off though. Especially once light hotspots are up, there will be almost no maintenance so who would turn off a thing that's earning them even $5-10/mo for no work (edited)
Haha, people that make enough money that $5-$10 is not worth the astethics of an antenna on their roof. $100 - $200+, worth it. (edited)
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16:46
And I mean ☝️ these kind of people aren't really into crypto.
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Oh yeah for sure. I was more thinking of everyday folk who will be installing it on a window or shelf and never thinking about it again
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capcom
Then ignore the HNT weight. The “for” was still double the votes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:17 PM
You're off by a few critical % 😉
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rawrmaan
Yes light hotspots will mostly be in the $100-200 range. No full hotspots will not have any advantage over them. None have been announced for sale yet. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:20 PM
1-2 hundred? No.. lol The components alone are that much. 0% chance they are under $300 in the first year, and that's generous. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
1-2 hundred? No.. lol The components alone are that much. 0% chance they are under $300 in the first year, and that's generous. 🙂
Are they though? Concentrator $80-100 (retail), rest of the components shouldn't be more than $30-40
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
1-2 hundred? No.. lol The components alone are that much. 0% chance they are under $300 in the first year, and that's generous. 🙂
ill take that bet
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Sounds like Capm has a different perspective. Not betting against him.
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capcom
ill take that bet
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:23 PM
Makes me think there is a $299 LHS you know about coming up. lol
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rawrmaan
Are they though? Concentrator $80-100 (retail), rest of the components shouldn't be more than $30-40
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:24 PM
So at worst, that's already $140 in parts. Now tack on onboarding, other costs, and mark ups. That puts it over $200 easily 🙂
17:27
Plus demand will keep prices high. 😉
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Onboarding is only $20 for light hotspots
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17:28
But yea, high demand could do things
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rawrmaan
But yea, high demand could do things
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:28 PM
Yeah, plus the chip shortage will still be with us well in to 2023
17:30
Still suspicious of Cap's eagerness to bet. Smells like info. 😉 lol
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This hip has passed. Time to move to implementation. Wen HIP 51,52,53?
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AndrewsMD
This hip has passed. Time to move to implementation. Wen HIP 51,52,53?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:30 PM
vote in 2024 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
vote in 2024 😉
I'll take that bet. My bet is it gets voted on before Aug 2022 (i.e., When HIP39 is supposed to occur). No worries. I see the light, and I'm not throwing shade 🙂 (edited)
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AndrewsMD
I'll take that bet. My bet is it gets voted on before Aug 2022 (i.e., When HIP39 is supposed to occur). No worries. I see the light, and I'm not throwing shade 🙂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:33 PM
Hmm.. the cynic view. I like it. lol
coolcry 1
17:34
partyparrot 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hmm.. the cynic view. I like it. lol
Bruh, you are losing to bets with Capcom and now me 🙂
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AndrewsMD
Bruh, you are losing to bets with Capcom and now me 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:35 PM
Now hang on.. I said I liked your date! lol
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17:36
Besides, I only bet when I have a good chance. I play poker, not blackjack. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Besides, I only bet when I have a good chance. I play poker, not blackjack. 😉
Wen HIP 53??? lol
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AndrewsMD
Wen HIP 53??? lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:38 PM
🤷‍♂️
17:38
Heck, I'm waiting for the promised big network co announcement from FreedomFi
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Heck, I'm waiting for the promised big network co announcement from FreedomFi
We are all waiting. Even the hater's. They under appreciate the rocket that news of 5G sent us up with. When people complain about losing 0.9% in association with a functioning blockchain, I think I will tell them, . . . just buy some sensors (i.e., Air quality, InvisiLeash, Invoxia, etc) and boost your data credit transactions. More earnings. 😊. Or I'll say, "Hold my beer, as I build the 5G". (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Heck, I'm waiting for the promised big network co announcement from FreedomFi
My bet is Announcement will occur 1 week after Russia makes some moves and market fears are quelled. For now, . . . buy buy buy. It’s on sale!!! (edited)
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AndrewsMD
My bet is Announcement will occur 1 week after Russia makes some moves and market fears are quelled. For now, . . . buy buy buy. It’s on sale!!! (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 5:52 PM
Well I mean, it's already slated for May, so not sure Russia has anything to do with it 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well I mean, it's already slated for May, so not sure Russia has anything to do with it 😉
I'm blaming politics for the current crytpo market. Prolly cause I don't know who else to blame. It sure isn't HIP55's abundant passing. LOL.
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rawrmaan
There's really very little incentive to turn off though. Especially once light hotspots are up, there will be almost no maintenance so who would turn off a thing that's earning them even $5-10/mo for no work (edited)
Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 7:27 PM
Please no discussion of fiat earnings
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Howlinghells 02/22/2022 9:25 PM
Did a mod just get out modded? Or is this sarcasm
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rawrmaan
Onboarding is only $20 for light hotspots
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 9:29 PM
No it’s not!
21:30
It’s 40 USD for onboarding and 10 USD for location assertions
21:52
But a further inspection of the code shows that it’s not implemented that way currently
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Tim | LongAP
But a further inspection of the code shows that it’s not implemented that way currently
Ahh interesting! I assumed that code was truth. Wondering what the final decision will be.
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rawrmaan
Ahh interesting! I assumed that code was truth. Wondering what the final decision will be.
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 9:57 PM
That makes the two of us! I think 10+10USD makes more sense for light hotspots instead of the current 40+10USD (edited)
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Yeah 10+10 or 20+10 feels right. 40+10 is too much.
21:58
20+5 is an option too
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/22/2022 10:00 PM
considering the remote applications available with light hotspots, i think the 5$ assertion should definatly be considered
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Tim | LongAP
It’s 40 USD for onboarding and 10 USD for location assertions
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 10:24 PM
Well that clinches it. No way we're getting $100-$200 light hotspots. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well that clinches it. No way we're getting $100-$200 light hotspots. 🙂
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 10:32 PM
I think 200USD retail is possible, IF DeWi MOC doesn’t implement the new manufacturer staking/slashing proposal (edited)
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Tim | LongAP
I think 200USD retail is possible, IF DeWi MOC doesn’t implement the new manufacturer staking/slashing proposal (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 10:36 PM
The material costs alone are almost that much. After retail markup, no way. :)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The material costs alone are almost that much. After retail markup, no way. :)
Yeah why would a maker know a thing or two about the possibilities of retail prices😂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The material costs alone are almost that much. After retail markup, no way. :)
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 10:38 PM
The Browan Femto Gateway Capcom was referring to is 129 EUR ex. VAT retail at 1 piece in The Netherlands right now. So I don’t see why it can’t be done.
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Tim | LongAP
The Browan Femto Gateway Capcom was referring to is 129 EUR ex. VAT retail at 1 piece in The Netherlands right now. So I don’t see why it can’t be done.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 10:39 PM
Not enough profit margin
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not enough profit margin
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 10:39 PM
But that’s the customer price including margin already
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not enough profit margin
https://www.antratek.com/lig16-lorawan-gateway The $0.10 for the ECC608 isn't going to make much of a difference. And this includes the entire supply chain. (edited)
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Tim | LongAP
But that’s the customer price including margin already
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/22/2022 10:41 PM
Rawrmaan was throwing out since very different part prices. 🤷‍♂️
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Tim | LongAP
But that’s the customer price including margin already
Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 10:42 PM
Because the hardware doesn’t matter. Being a HIP-19 approved vendor just allows you to sell an intangible asset, the right to mine
22:43
It costs $160 because no one wants to buy it. When you add an ECC chip that gives a little stamp of approval of the MOC it suddenly has value
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Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 10:44 PM
Exactly the four things that will be different: - onboarding fees 50/20/??? USD - possibly the costs of the lock-up of the full sales price for some time and the risk of slashing and the administration overhead of the DeWi MOC manufacturer staking/slashing proposal - Helium specific maintenance and support (basic LoRa is fire and forget) - The costs and risks around HIP19 approval (edited)
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Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 10:45 PM
If you want the price to go down, you eliminate HIP-19. Anyone can buy any forwarder and onboard it themselves
22:45
I suspect the price of forwarders would still increase though because it can
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Max - Just Max
If you want the price to go down, you eliminate HIP-19. Anyone can buy any forwarder and onboard it themselves
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 10:54 PM
I think that prices, especially with the introduction of light hotspots, will go down quickly. The amount of useable processors, lower requirements, less complexity and the reusability of existing designs will cause more supply and less much scarcity. But yes HIP19 currently adds risks and costs causing a price difference between non-HIP19 (or HIP19 not being applicable) LoRa gateways and HIP19 Helium hotspots. And this is only going to increase with the proposed changes.
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Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 10:57 PM
I’m curious why you think the amount of DC burn should decrease for light hotspots
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Max - Just Max
I’m curious why you think the amount of DC burn should decrease for light hotspots
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 11:01 PM
Because I think that adding (a minimal of) 50 USD mark-up on a 200-ish USD product to support Helium is too much, it's 25% (and maybe even up to 50% if we follow Capcoms 100 USD pricing). It stops or limits growth of the network by adding artificial fees that add little value.
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Tim | LongAP
Because I think that adding (a minimal of) 50 USD mark-up on a 200-ish USD product to support Helium is too much, it's 25% (and maybe even up to 50% if we follow Capcoms 100 USD pricing). It stops or limits growth of the network by adding artificial fees that add little value.
Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 11:10 PM
I’d argue that it is a staking fee (as it says in the CLI receipts) and the value only thing that gives it value is the right to mine HNT through POC. That cost being high allows for a few interesting tax implications in the US. 1) People mining in multiple states are deriving money from the intangible asset that is the right to mine, removing any state tax nexus issues and becoming a net positive for the hotspot owner. 2) if an argument can be made that POC Helium mining is actually proof of stake it could create more advantageous tax treatment depending on how Jarrett v. United States shakes out next year. If we update the onboarding costs with the price of hardware it hurts the tax positions that people have been taking.
23:10
Probably not the channel for this though
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Max - Just Max
I’d argue that it is a staking fee (as it says in the CLI receipts) and the value only thing that gives it value is the right to mine HNT through POC. That cost being high allows for a few interesting tax implications in the US. 1) People mining in multiple states are deriving money from the intangible asset that is the right to mine, removing any state tax nexus issues and becoming a net positive for the hotspot owner. 2) if an argument can be made that POC Helium mining is actually proof of stake it could create more advantageous tax treatment depending on how Jarrett v. United States shakes out next year. If we update the onboarding costs with the price of hardware it hurts the tax positions that people have been taking.
Tim | LongAP 02/22/2022 11:14 PM
It would be staking in my opinion if you could "park it" and get it back, like with staking Helium Validators. Onboarding Fees and Assertion Fees are non-returnable (their are burned directly) so personally I don't feel it's really staking. However getting a right to mine could still apply.
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Tim | LongAP
It would be staking in my opinion if you could "park it" and get it back, like with staking Helium Validators. Onboarding Fees and Assertion Fees are non-returnable (their are burned directly) so personally I don't feel it's really staking. However getting a right to mine could still apply.
Max - Just Max 02/22/2022 11:19 PM
Well you can “get it back” by selling that license to someone else.
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The onboarding and assertion fees, when looked at from a 3rd world country's perspective, are horrendous. Even here in NZ, we're basically paying double.
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zl3ag
The onboarding and assertion fees, when looked at from a 3rd world country's perspective, are horrendous. Even here in NZ, we're basically paying double.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/23/2022 1:02 AM
And by the same factors, you also get rewarded double.
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andrewd2222 02/23/2022 5:42 AM
Any idea on a timeline for the changes in this HIP to be pushed to production?
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Hopefully a few weeks. It’s all in testing on the testnet now
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andrewd2222 02/23/2022 6:14 AM
trying to decide whether to go play with the broken hotspots or wait for this change! I think waiting sounds good if it's "a few weeks" not "a few months". Goodluck in testnet!
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Always good to fix it gain more rewards as you wait for update
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Max - Just Max
Well you can “get it back” by selling that license to someone else.
Not sure if this conversation belongs here or not, but can't really think of a better place outside of maybe #hip-discussion but with that being said. I recall the add_gateway fee being implemented as a source of friction to prevent someone from spamming a ton of gateways to the blockchain that don't exist. I think the lower we go with this the more it would be lucrative to do just that. Now, thinking of it as a stake I'd have to take Tim's point of view. It's currently a transaction fee (if ETH gas can be justified to be claimed on taxes as an expense so should this fwiw). However, I'm all about performance based initiatives. What if you did "stake" $50 but over the course of some performance metric you're rewarded back 90% ... 100% of it back? It'd meet the current goal of limiting spoof gateways and the user could use it in the future for more miners or just back into their pockets. Only downside to this is that the current HNT -> DC burn is gateway fees. Remove that and the network would only see the ~$2000 a month data transfer. Also what would you do with the hotspots currently on chain. Would they be returned this fee or would people be okay with future installations working this way? The last question also applies with the change of $50 to $10 for light hotspots since older gateways paid more to join the network how is that fair?
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Tim | LongAP 02/23/2022 6:44 AM
@cokes any insights on this? When we discussed it a long time ago the onboarding fees for HIP19 approved light hotspots were 40 USD (and 10USD for the location assertions). But currently the Helium-blockchain-code has 10 USD (and 10USD for the location assertion)
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Tim | LongAP
@cokes any insights on this? When we discussed it a long time ago the onboarding fees for HIP19 approved light hotspots were 40 USD (and 10USD for the location assertions). But currently the Helium-blockchain-code has 10 USD (and 10USD for the location assertion)
it should be 40/10 when mode is set as light. if it's not, we'll take a look.
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cokes
it should be 40/10 when mode is set as light. if it's not, we'll take a look.
Tim | LongAP 02/23/2022 6:58 AM
The vars seem correct, sorry (if there's not a newer one overruling this: https://github.com/helium/miner/blob/6837356bb941696b5c4c0864817e3aa4e12d1743/audit/var-73.md)
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that's the only one
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cokes
that's the only one
Tim | LongAP 02/23/2022 7:30 AM
Thanks! (CC @rawrmaan) (edited)
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Anthonyra
Not sure if this conversation belongs here or not, but can't really think of a better place outside of maybe #hip-discussion but with that being said. I recall the add_gateway fee being implemented as a source of friction to prevent someone from spamming a ton of gateways to the blockchain that don't exist. I think the lower we go with this the more it would be lucrative to do just that. Now, thinking of it as a stake I'd have to take Tim's point of view. It's currently a transaction fee (if ETH gas can be justified to be claimed on taxes as an expense so should this fwiw). However, I'm all about performance based initiatives. What if you did "stake" $50 but over the course of some performance metric you're rewarded back 90% ... 100% of it back? It'd meet the current goal of limiting spoof gateways and the user could use it in the future for more miners or just back into their pockets. Only downside to this is that the current HNT -> DC burn is gateway fees. Remove that and the network would only see the ~$2000 a month data transfer. Also what would you do with the hotspots currently on chain. Would they be returned this fee or would people be okay with future installations working this way? The last question also applies with the change of $50 to $10 for light hotspots since older gateways paid more to join the network how is that fair?
Max - Just Max 02/23/2022 9:49 AM
I don't think the chain has to actually return the HNT, there is a mechanism to transfer the staking fee. I see it as something that is something analogous to Personal Seat Licenses which the IRS hasn't specifically opined much about outside of PLR 201722004 but the general consensus seems to be that they are treated as an intangible.
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Has anyone wondered if the ratio hotspots/validators is currently sustainable? Or is there a risk of too many witness trying to connect to the validator to send the beacon receipts back?
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sbittante
Has anyone wondered if the ratio hotspots/validators is currently sustainable? Or is there a risk of too many witness trying to connect to the validator to send the beacon receipts back?
It would be a stampede of connections for a CG member, which is why I think the core team is thinking about having all non-CG validators handle challenge creation and receipts. When synced and not in a CG, a validator is pretty idle (edited)
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
Hey guys, ever need a nice example of why we need this HIP take a look at this hotspot https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/1199HQbd3RUGYyXDfLgiKUBPJ8J9Z9Viw9LKF71XmtKTuapJp9p/activity he sends challenges and for some reason, all of his challengee's fail to be "witnessed" . This behavior used to be a "relayed" hotspot only issue... the p2p plague is spreading to hotspots that are actually deemed "healthy"
I have one example. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112ue8xyi9i4zJJqrLA9FdHTMDDjWHgr1eyPePXAXMMFayh29cTD/activity Was it limited to three per day? Some are limited to 15 beacons per day 🤬
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krby
It would be a stampede of connections for a CG member, which is why I think the core team is thinking about having all non-CG validators handle challenge creation and receipts. When synced and not in a CG, a validator is pretty idle (edited)
only for CG member is impossible, it would definitely be better for all non-CG members to handle POCs (edited)
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Top
I have one example. https://explorer.helium.com/hotspots/112ue8xyi9i4zJJqrLA9FdHTMDDjWHgr1eyPePXAXMMFayh29cTD/activity Was it limited to three per day? Some are limited to 15 beacons per day 🤬
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/23/2022 1:55 PM
yeah this issue would go away with 55 implemented.... that is terrible
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sbittante
only for CG member is impossible, it would definitely be better for all non-CG members to handle POCs (edited)
Well, it is possible, just a bad idea (IMO) That was what HIP-55 said originally. But I have heard they are changing their mind on this
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
yeah this issue would go away with 55 implemented.... that is terrible
That "issue" will be "fixed" by hip 54, not 55
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ricopt5
That "issue" will be "fixed" by hip 54, not 55
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/23/2022 2:11 PM
im pretty sure 55 would solve it too no? isnt this a spoof on challenges to this hotspot? (edited)
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
im pretty sure 55 would solve it too no? isnt this a spoof on challenges to this hotspot? (edited)
No. You can't spoof challenges. Validators would reject the POC if you tried. That "issue" is caused by the offline hotspots in the res4 which is "fixed" by 54.
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14:14
With 55 and no 54, that hotspot would still be beaconing as frequent as it is right now
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ricopt5
No. You can't spoof challenges. Validators would reject the POC if you tried. That "issue" is caused by the offline hotspots in the res4 which is "fixed" by 54.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/23/2022 2:18 PM
aaaaahhh thanks for the clarification and makes total sense
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
aaaaahhh thanks for the clarification and makes total sense
Wow, that chain behind your name when you subscribe to blockchain-dev is ugly. /offtopic (edited)
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groot
Wow, that chain behind your name when you subscribe to blockchain-dev is ugly. /offtopic (edited)
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/23/2022 2:22 PM
i just wanted notifications 😭
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
i just wanted notifications 😭
Yeah well, not at that cost🙊
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oh i think i can get rid of that. please standby
15:50
nope, can't. it is what it is
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/23/2022 4:41 PM
no worries aprreciate the try anyway 🍻 (edited)
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Marcos Ledesma 02/23/2022 11:31 PM
So is hip 55 update live?
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Not yet, still on testnet
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When starts hip 55?
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robschman
When starts hip 55?
They say soon what I don't believe
facepalm 3
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/24/2022 9:40 AM
Everything has to be done in the proper order, or things don't work, so once everything is finished, the update will go live.
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If more tasks are removed from the hotspots and moved to validators, has anyone proposed revising the minimum required staking to become a validator?
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SWN
If more tasks are removed from the hotspots and moved to validators, has anyone proposed revising the minimum required staking to become a validator?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 12:39 PM
Not sure what other tasks could be moved... 😄
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SWN
If more tasks are removed from the hotspots and moved to validators, has anyone proposed revising the minimum required staking to become a validator?
Many people have proposed lowering stake for a variety of reasons. From "the network's point of view" there are plenty of validators now, so not sure if encouraging more is the right thing (edited)
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gotcha. it doesn't feel good to lose out on more rewards in an already dwindling reward structure.... the more POC lose to the hotspots, the more it will slow down the growth and investors to the network.
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SWN
gotcha. it doesn't feel good to lose out on more rewards in an already dwindling reward structure.... the more POC lose to the hotspots, the more it will slow down the growth and investors to the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 4:09 PM
Validators don't have antennas, so there is no other part of PoC that could be passed to them. Also, to be very clear, this moving of the challenges to the validators was the plan the whole time since the beginning. 🙂
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nortexmining
Now that the vote is over and to help move on from the constant "they're taking our rewards/less rewards for miners" vs "this is better for the network" back and forth, where is the best channel to discuss the possibilities for future use of full hotspot's compute capabilities? It sounds like there's opportunity there but I don't understand enough about the hardware to know the true potential.
Agreed @nortexmining, it would be great to find a higher purpose for our full hotspots rather than to simply be "deprecated" soon and live the remainder of their lives as simple light hotspots.
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biz421
Agreed @nortexmining, it would be great to find a higher purpose for our full hotspots rather than to simply be "deprecated" soon and live the remainder of their lives as simple light hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/24/2022 11:37 PM
Making me picture a miner retirement home. lol
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When is hip 55 starting to be used?
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Stefz
When is hip 55 starting to be used?
I had read 100 times this question same answer #soon, what they mean with soon i don’t know
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It takes as long as it takes, but it's a top priority and is already running on testnet, so the answer is... Soon ™️
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Yes guys i m able to read soon as well but if i m asking is to know if u have more detailed Infos on the word soon... seems like nobody knows it exactly when
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00:49
It could be 1 week,2 weeks, 1 month or whatever...
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wait I remember earlier they have said "it would take weeks and not months "
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
i just wanted notifications 😭
Earning notifications plz
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rawrmaan
Yes light hotspots will mostly be in the $100-200 range. No full hotspots will not have any advantage over them. None have been announced for sale yet. (edited)
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/25/2022 8:24 AM
i'd love to know how you figure that price. It'd cost me more than that to build a data-only hotspot unless i use a dragino.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i'd love to know how you figure that price. It'd cost me more than that to build a data-only hotspot unless i use a dragino.
Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 02/25/2022 8:24 AM
think its about the bulk pricing of said parts
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
think its about the bulk pricing of said parts
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/25/2022 8:29 AM
80$ concentrator, is bulk pricing. then needs a board of somekind to accept power and wifi and put out rf. casing, pigtails, BT port and wifi port. assembly/shipping/warehousing/delivery
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validators creating challenges is currently undergoing testing on testnet.
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SWN
gotcha. it doesn't feel good to lose out on more rewards in an already dwindling reward structure.... the more POC lose to the hotspots, the more it will slow down the growth and investors to the network.
If you do the math, right now validator % returns are quite a bit worse than the average hotspot.
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Good to know.
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biz421
Agreed @nortexmining, it would be great to find a higher purpose for our full hotspots rather than to simply be "deprecated" soon and live the remainder of their lives as simple light hotspots.
nortexmining 02/25/2022 11:11 AM
I keep trying to find other projects that have similar hardware and can dual mine another coin but I'm not having much success.
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backtran
If you do the math, right now validator % returns are quite a bit worse than the average hotspot.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 02/25/2022 3:27 PM
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capcom
Hopefully a few weeks. It’s all in testing on the testnet now
any possibility for us to follow the progress of it? milestones to monitor?
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biz421
Agreed @nortexmining, it would be great to find a higher purpose for our full hotspots rather than to simply be "deprecated" soon and live the remainder of their lives as simple light hotspots.
I'm assuming you could pull the high end RaspPi out and replace it with a lower power model (and reuse the memory card somewhere else). It would be nice to be able to plug other stuff in the unused USB ports that also benefit from being high up in the air, like a RTL-SDR usb stick or suchlike.
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biz421
Agreed @nortexmining, it would be great to find a higher purpose for our full hotspots rather than to simply be "deprecated" soon and live the remainder of their lives as simple light hotspots.
hear me out. multiple dockers running multiple instances of a light hotspot
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BusyPanda
hear me out. multiple dockers running multiple instances of a light hotspot
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/26/2022 4:21 PM
i'd doubt even the smallest current "full-hotspots" 1gb ram(+1gb virtual ram) 8gb storage, will be able to handle lite hotspot sw and the post-55 poc/data transfer requirements.
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darth savaloy
hopefully the network running smoother will beable to mint more hnt
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i'd doubt even the smallest current "full-hotspots" 1gb ram(+1gb virtual ram) 8gb storage, will be able to handle lite hotspot sw and the post-55 poc/data transfer requirements.
Actually the hardware we targeted against was around 500mhz with 256mb of ram
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capcom
Actually the hardware we targeted against was around 500mhz with 256mb of ram
OptimusPrime 02/26/2022 6:41 PM
That’s a massive cost reduction 🙀.
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OptimusPrime
That’s a massive cost reduction 🙀.
Yup, and no more relying on rpi stock as most manufacturers are doing currently, buying up as many as they can in the rare times they're available
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capcom
Actually the hardware we targeted against was around 500mhz with 256mb of ram
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/26/2022 6:54 PM
That was the size of the first home computer I bought. 😉 was a giant tower in the early 90's. Amazing how far tech has come in 30 years.
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Means they will make the raspberry pi zero 2w even harder to find after light hs. Even 2w is overspec if looking at capcom's comment
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What we will do with our full Hotspots it's a I'm playing Mario game on a RTX 3090
03:28
It makes no sense for full Hotspot
03:28
Owner
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Resident
What we will do with our full Hotspots it's a I'm playing Mario game on a RTX 3090
If you buy that RTX 3090 on launch day you will have bad drivers. After a while new drivers and game updates will make every game run better and your RTX 3090 suddenly has power to spare. Are you going to be mad at Nvidia and the game developers that they improved their code?
03:31
You bought your miner for a purpose, to mine, it will still do that so I don't see the problem. Yes it could've been cheaper but I assume you weighed the price of your full miner against the obtained functionality and thought it was fine.
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wakkadoodle 02/27/2022 3:32 AM
What are we looking at in terms of reward drop after thursday ?@groot
03:32
And is there a easy way to explain exactly what is happening in super layman terms 😂
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groot
If you buy that RTX 3090 on launch day you will have bad drivers. After a while new drivers and game updates will make every game run better and your RTX 3090 suddenly has power to spare. Are you going to be mad at Nvidia and the game developers that they improved their code?
I think I should wait for a light version better than buying a fully Hotspot
03:33
May have fully Hotspots any advantage in future?
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Full hotspots probably won't have any advantage in the future. I look at it the same way as with almost all computer parts, if you wait you will have a better part and probably cheaper too, but you will have to wait.
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wakkadoodle
What are we looking at in terms of reward drop after thursday ?@groot
Read the HIP or watch one of the videos in the pins, they explain it pretty clearly.
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wakkadoodle 02/27/2022 3:53 AM
Thanks very informative video
03:54
Are there any light hotspot pre order list’s yet ?
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Resident
I think I should wait for a light version better than buying a fully Hotspot
Sure if you are prepared to lose few months worth of rewards just to buy a light hotspot for marginally lower price.
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maybe the antenna will get more and more expensive in the future. more expensive than the hotspot itself.
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Resident
What we will do with our full Hotspots it's a I'm playing Mario game on a RTX 3090
As long as you’re still earning HNT for proof of coverage why would you care what the CPU use is?
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capcom
As long as you’re still earning HNT for proof of coverage why would you care what the CPU use is?
Because i paid 800 euro for my Hotspot and the new hotspot will cost more less, its a bad investment
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Resident
Because i paid 800 euro for my Hotspot and the new hotspot will cost more less, its a bad investment
I paid $1200 for an iPhone 12 then the iPhone 13 came out. But I got a solid year of use on my iPhone 12 so I’m not sad
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07:34
Also, there are no cheaper hotspots and probably won’t be for months
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capcom
Also, there are no cheaper hotspots and probably won’t be for months
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 9:20 AM
That greatly depends on the light hotspot approval process by DeWi
09:22
I mean Dragino has a hotspot in the first approval batch for 200-250 USD and including onboarding fees that’s a copy of existing hardware but HIP19 approved.
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I mean, it’s weeks or months just to get the software part done. Feels like semantics
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capcom
I mean, it’s weeks or months just to get the software part done. Feels like semantics
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:03 AM
Oh, I thought it was already ready and running on testnet?
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It is
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capcom
It is
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:08 AM
So you think it will take weeks or even months to get it ready and operational on mainnet?
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At least weeks, for sure
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capcom
At least weeks, for sure
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:18 AM
Oh that’s a bit disappointing 😢 I got the impression from “being tested on testnet” that it was ready (except for bugs of course) just needed some testing.
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That’s about right, but I still expect it to take weeks to actually deploy. All makers have to be pretty coordinated with this one, as once validator challenges are enabled hotspot challenges will be disabled
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I'm still very sceptical about $200 price range. Especially knowing they are selling their LPS8 for close to $200 and that one can't do PoC. I mean full hotspots were going for $300 at the very beginning.
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Wolverine
I'm still very sceptical about $200 price range. Especially knowing they are selling their LPS8 for close to $200 and that one can't do PoC. I mean full hotspots were going for $300 at the very beginning.
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:24 AM
The LPS8 with an added <1 USD ECC chip is perfectly capable of doing PoC once light hotspots launch
10:25
And no you can’t that chip yourself, the product needs DeWi MOC approval
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capcom
That’s about right, but I still expect it to take weeks to actually deploy. All makers have to be pretty coordinated with this one, as once validator challenges are enabled hotspot challenges will be disabled
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:26 AM
Ah got it, so there has to be a forced update soon and a chainvar to switch
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Tim | LongAP
The LPS8 with an added <1 USD ECC chip is perfectly capable of doing PoC once light hotspots launch
I understand that, point is why would you sell something for $200 when you can sell it for $500 because there is demand for it. It's not like full hotspots cost $400 to make
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Wolverine
I understand that, point is why would you sell something for $200 when you can sell it for $500 because there is demand for it. It's not like full hotspots cost $400 to make
Tim | LongAP 02/27/2022 10:27 AM
True, but supply of required parts to make light hotspots is larger so over time I expect the prices to go down as supply greatly increases
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capcom
As long as you’re still earning HNT for proof of coverage why would you care what the CPU use is?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 02/27/2022 12:35 PM
That's kinda bass-ackwards if the people with the miners want to grow and take part in the network. Twice as much so if they run sensors/trackers and miners
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Tim | LongAP
Oh, I thought it was already ready and running on testnet?
It is!
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But with this hip55 our hostspot Will no.longer take part on PoC? Only light hotspot Will take part?
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Monkey🐒
But with this hip55 our hostspot Will no.longer take part on PoC? Only light hotspot Will take part?
Your hotspot will take part in PoC. The difference is that validators will issue PoC challenges, whereas before those were issued by other hotspots. You will still witness/beacon.
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Monkey🐒
But with this hip55 our hostspot Will no.longer take part on PoC? Only light hotspot Will take part?
How did you get to this conclusion? Full hotspots will be "converted" to light hotspots by a simple firmware update. It'll continue working normally.
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So what basically Will change for us, Is that Will be on the market new hotspot that Will cost less, and maybe they Will work less??
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Wolverine
How did you get to this conclusion? Full hotspots will be "converted" to light hotspots by a simple firmware update. It'll continue working normally.
Yes, that's were i'm pointing, our hotspot Will be Just converted by a Simply "upgrade" right?
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Monkey🐒
Yes, that's were i'm pointing, our hotspot Will be Just converted by a Simply "upgrade" right?
Yes, as I said, they will be converted to light hotspot and continue working.
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Wolverine
Yes, as I said, they will be converted to light hotspot and continue working.
I don't get then why people are so afraid about this hip
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Monkey🐒
I don't get then why people are so afraid about this hip
They don't want to lose the 0.9% of HNT earned by challenging beaconers
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At the same time they are losing waaaay more because of constant p2p issues, improper setups, etc.
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Wolverine
At the same time they are losing waaaay more because of constant p2p issues, improper setups, etc.
I have good location Bad earning because of p2p
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Same, so many failed connections
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Digerati
They don't want to lose the 0.9% of HNT earned by challenging beaconers
IgnoredVirus 02/28/2022 1:42 PM
because that makes such a massive difference to your earnings, why people complaining when you can get your roi back in 2 months and costs 0 to run
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IgnoredVirus
because that makes such a massive difference to your earnings, why people complaining when you can get your roi back in 2 months and costs 0 to run
No idea, I'm in favor of HIP 55
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Digerati
No idea, I'm in favor of HIP 55
IgnoredVirus 02/28/2022 1:45 PM
not just the fact that its a fraction of your earning lost, you will recoup that with less time spent syncing, sd cards failing, all at the cost to use which will be no more
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100% agreed
13:45
It should resolve so many problems
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Can’t wait to be active
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Yeah, there are so many questions/problems with people being relayed
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When will hip 55 be activated
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balboa
When will hip 55 be activated
when it's ready. being tested on testnet right now. see channel description.
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Omer-xCasp3r 03/01/2022 12:06 AM
I would give 1.0% instead of 0.9% if they could just fix those p2p problems right away😅 Im 100% for hip55.
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It will take time to get the hip55 active
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Omer-xCasp3r
I would give 1.0% instead of 0.9% if they could just fix those p2p problems right away😅 Im 100% for hip55.
Vincent Tran 03/01/2022 9:13 AM
Maybe 0.9% looks like a big number to them 🤣. Should have been 1% to make it look better
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Isn’t hip55 going to solve port forwarding problems?
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11:43
I think I read it somewhere
11:43
Therefore no need to get static ip and no more relayed
11:43
Isn’t it true?
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ismail28
I think I read it somewhere
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thank you. That is what I know. I just wanted to be sure
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When this will be implemented? I thought it will be today. Therefore I didn’t get static ip for new hotspots
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half the strength 03/01/2022 11:19 PM
will hip 55 get rid of Miner RPC Unavailable for Nebra?
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ismail28
When this will be implemented? I thought it will be today. Therefore I didn’t get static ip for new hotspots
What made you think it would be implemented today?
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 03/02/2022 12:26 AM
Would is be possible to remove hotspots that only receive challenger rewards from the Reward scale calculation after this passes?
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00:27
There's a bunch of Kerlinks in the Philippines that do 0 beaconing & witnessing. But are affecting the reward scales of the nearby hotspots.
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After the update, the relayed will be history? I mean, we won’t need to open ports anymore? (edited)
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Let's hope will happen soon
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ismail28
Therefore no need to get static ip and no more relayed
you will still need a public ip
03:49
otherwise rewards may be reduced
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IgnoredVirus
not just the fact that its a fraction of your earning lost, you will recoup that with less time spent syncing, sd cards failing, all at the cost to use which will be no more
that is not true. The issues affect everyone. if everyone has fewer issues, then you still do not earn more because the total amount of HNT that is distributed to HS remains constant
03:50
so you will not earn more, you will earn ~ 1% less (edited)
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Testa
that is not true. The issues affect everyone. if everyone has fewer issues, then you still do not earn more because the total amount of HNT that is distributed to HS remains constant
CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 03/02/2022 4:02 AM
This is not true. If you have a good setup then you will benefit from having more beacons to witness. If your setup is shit it'll stay shit.
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%)
This is not true. If you have a good setup then you will benefit from having more beacons to witness. If your setup is shit it'll stay shit.
This is not true, if you currently have less then average issues with libp2p, syncing etc your rewards will decrease after hip55. If you currently have more than average issues with libp2p, syncing etc your rewards will increase. Simple math of a zero sum game.
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groot
This is not true, if you currently have less then average issues with libp2p, syncing etc your rewards will decrease after hip55. If you currently have more than average issues with libp2p, syncing etc your rewards will increase. Simple math of a zero sum game.
CI | 1Solo | (33.3%) 03/02/2022 4:12 AM
My hotspots or the hotspots around me? Earnings have always been more dependent on the uptime and transmit scales of surrounding hotspots. (edited)
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CI | 1Solo | (33.3%)
My hotspots or the hotspots around me? Earnings have always been more dependent on the uptime and transmit scales of surrounding hotspots. (edited)
Everyone, thats the point. Most people that claim rewards will increase seem to forget that everyone will benefit and you are rewarded for your relative performance. The relative performance of hotspots with a lot of issues will increase and their rewards will increase accordingly, the relative performance of hotspots with little issues will decrease as there is little to gain with hip55 and their rewards decrease accordingly.
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groot
Everyone, thats the point. Most people that claim rewards will increase seem to forget that everyone will benefit and you are rewarded for your relative performance. The relative performance of hotspots with a lot of issues will increase and their rewards will increase accordingly, the relative performance of hotspots with little issues will decrease as there is little to gain with hip55 and their rewards decrease accordingly.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/02/2022 6:59 AM
That libp2p part lines up with what I've seen across my various miners and setups, even more important atm to earning than height and line of sight has been the isp's network (modem router) ability to handle a non-stop trickle of libp2p gossip.
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Testa
you will still need a public ip
When HIP55 is implemented, your hotspot will not longer need to accept incoming connections, so no need to have an a static IP or port forwarding setup on your router or via VPN.
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When will HIP55 be implemented?
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Ernnt
When will HIP55 be implemented?
4-12 weeks
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@rawrmaan from the time it was passed?
08:26
And that was about a week ago?
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Right. It all depends on how testing goes on testnet
08:33
The timeframe I posted is only an estimate, which is the best we have right now
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Testa
you will still need a public ip
Who says you still need public up, no one has a public up Adresse in the whole of Europe
facepalm 1
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rawrmaan
4-12 weeks
2 weeks ago you saying 4 -12 weeks 😂
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Testa
you will still need a public ip
But it doesn’t have to be static if we don’t need port forwarding. We pay extra for static ip service here in my country
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Wolverine
What made you think it would be implemented today?
They announced the update must be done by 3rd of march and HIP55 page on githıb says second of march is the release day. Maybe someone can illimunate us about this🤷🏼‍♂️
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Testa
that is not true. The issues affect everyone. if everyone has fewer issues, then you still do not earn more because the total amount of HNT that is distributed to HS remains constant
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 9:38 AM
Not entirely true since the physical setup still plays an important role in PoC. Good setups would be still earn much better than shitty setups since everything else will be equal, despite the % increase of good ones might be less than shitty delayed ones. My good outdoor setup usually has 14 witnesses but with 0 witness sometimes. Hopefully this will be resolved by the HIP55. (edited)
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ismail28
They announced the update must be done by 3rd of march and HIP55 page on githıb says second of march is the release day. Maybe someone can illimunate us about this🤷🏼‍♂️
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The first of many changes.. You'll know when we transition all Hotspots to Light Hotspots. it will be a BigDeal ™️
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krby
When HIP55 is implemented, your hotspot will not longer need to accept incoming connections, so no need to have an a static IP or port forwarding setup on your router or via VPN.
Public IP != static IP
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Resident
Who says you still need public up, no one has a public up Adresse in the whole of Europe
All decent ISPs give you a public IP. If two or more HS share one IP they will receive less beacons. This does not change with HIP55 does it?
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OptimusPrime
Not entirely true since the physical setup still plays an important role in PoC. Good setups would be still earn much better than shitty setups since everything else will be equal, despite the % increase of good ones might be less than shitty delayed ones. My good outdoor setup usually has 14 witnesses but with 0 witness sometimes. Hopefully this will be resolved by the HIP55. (edited)
Yeah but you wont earn more because other HS will no longer have 0 witnesses either. @groot has explained it this morning. (edited)
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Testa
Public IP != static IP
I totally agree, you always have a public IP, otherwise IP packets cannot be routed back to you. But in the context of hotspots and HIP55, when someone says "public IP" most people mean: A an "IP address that can accept incoming connections that end up connecting to port 44158 on the hotspot" (by whatever means you made that work).
10:47
So sure, your hotspot still has a public IP after HIP55, it just doesn't matter what it is, it could be your ISP-assigned IP to your router that is doing NAT like it does for your whole home network.
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Testa
Yeah but you wont earn more because other HS will no longer have 0 witnesses either. @groot has explained it this morning. (edited)
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 10:59 AM
I am still not sure that is true without careful estimation. Mostly all we have is just a hunch. We will see results in 4-12 weeks 😉 (edited)
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11:02
But by the time of the implementation, the total number of hotspots probably has already drastically increased. Then, it will be harder to test which one is more true 😂
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OptimusPrime
I am still not sure that is true without careful estimation. Mostly all we have is just a hunch. We will see results in 4-12 weeks 😉 (edited)
So what is your hypothesis? That good hotspots will increase their earnings and bad hotspots will increase their earnings more? So who's going to earn less? There is still only 50k HNT a day. Every bit of rewards that some hotspot gains must be lost by another. (edited)
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krby
So sure, your hotspot still has a public IP after HIP55, it just doesn't matter what it is, it could be your ISP-assigned IP to your router that is doing NAT like it does for your whole home network.
In the case of CGNAT this is not true because it will be seen by the network as multiple HS sharing one IP.
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OptimusPrime
I am still not sure that is true without careful estimation. Mostly all we have is just a hunch. We will see results in 4-12 weeks 😉 (edited)
It is very clear. There will not be more HNT. If someone gets more someone else gets less.
11:17
And to add to that, all HS get around 1% less and the vidators will earn 20% more instead.
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NL_Miniterror_NL 03/02/2022 11:17 AM
Place your bets, my personal situation will go down😂
11:18
Wonder if he would counter that my rewards will go up
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groot
So what is your hypothesis? That good hotspots will increase their earnings and bad hotspots will increase their earnings more? So who's going to earn less? There is still only 50k HNT a day. Every bit of rewards that some hotspot gains must be lost by another. (edited)
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 11:31 AM
I don't see any hypothesis here since we don't have right numbers. But 20% more for validators, I don't see that coming from. Maybe I missed something.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Wonder if he would counter that my rewards will go up
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 11:31 AM
As the number of the hotspots is going up, the rewards will always be down. The only thing I'm sure is good setups would earn better than those shitty setups.
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OptimusPrime
I don't see any hypothesis here since we don't have right numbers. But 20% more for validators, I don't see that coming from. Maybe I missed something.
Validators will get 5.9% of all HNTs minted - it is 5% currently. That is nearly a 20% increase (edited)
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Testa
Validators will get 5.9% of all HNTs minted - it is 5% currently. That is nearly a 20% increase (edited)
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 11:53 AM
I see. Thx. Might be better to stake earned hnts. (edited)
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Testa
Validators will get 5.9% of all HNTs minted - it is 5% currently. That is nearly a 20% increase (edited)
it's 6 to 6.9% btw
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capcom
it's 6 to 6.9% btw
Let's not get bogged down into details ;)
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details matter, mate
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what's 15% vs 20% amongst friends?
14:32
If you want to look at it in the other direction using that approach of math, the hotspot take of rewards is only reduced by ~1.48% for a massive improvement in network scalability that helps us scale to millions of hotspots and global coverage across multiple wireless protocols.
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14:32
61% to 60.1% of rewards.
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We need get it active, that what we need right now
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hashc0de
what's 15% vs 20% amongst friends?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/02/2022 2:49 PM
20%: The amount of time "Pocket Aces" get cracked vs one other hand. 🥲 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
20%: The amount of time "Pocket Aces" get cracked vs one other hand. 🥲 (edited)
the poker reference is very much appreciated around these parts.
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Resident
We need get it active, that what we need right now
OptimusPrime 03/02/2022 3:42 PM
As soon as it is well tested in the testnet. Same for the HIP54. (edited)
15:43
Using offline denied miners as baits to increase beacon challenges is exploited widely now. (edited)
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Resident
Who says you still need public up, no one has a public up Adresse in the whole of Europe
I miss something here. I am in Europe, I have 13 miners, 10 have fixed static public IPs
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backtran
I miss something here. I am in Europe, I have 13 miners, 10 have fixed static public IPs
How much you pay for your Fixed IPs monthly?
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Resident
How much you pay for your Fixed IPs monthly?
So to be clear when I say this I mean the connection is capable of being port forwarded by me. In 7 of the cases there is no additional cost. One case costs 7 Eur per month extra, two other cases are on cellular connections and I bring a Linode / wireguard VPN to get the forwardable IP address. These VPNs cost 5Eur per month. (edited)
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backtran
So to be clear when I say this I mean the connection is capable of being port forwarded by me. In 7 of the cases there is no additional cost. One case costs 7 Eur per month extra, two other cases are on cellular connections and I bring a Linode / wireguard VPN to get the forwardable IP address. These VPNs cost 5Eur per month. (edited)
I'm able to forward my port it doesn't mean that I have a public ip
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Resident
I'm able to forward my port it doesn't mean that I have a public ip
Not sure how that would work
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What do you consider as a ''public IP''
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I should be clear - when I say "capable of being port forwarded" I actually mean its effective in removing relayed status. You can port forward anything but unless the internet side is addressable from the internet as your IP (not a shared one) then it wont work.
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backtran
I should be clear - when I say "capable of being port forwarded" I actually mean its effective in removing relayed status. You can port forward anything but unless the internet side is addressable from the internet as your IP (not a shared one) then it wont work.
Yes it's working and the Hotspot will not be relayed anymore but it's don't mean that your IP address public is, you can watch your public IP Address and you see it's changing all the Time .
03:18
And this will be resolved
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Laurențiu BR 03/03/2022 3:33 AM
What about hot spots? It's been mining for 2 days. How are you?
07:42
^just follow that to get your miner out of relayed and a static public ip (edited)
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Will the 0.9% allocated away from miners and to validators just be added to the existing rewards bucket currently being allocated to validators in CG? IOW, it's not a new reward with a separate allocation mechanism but is instead a reward additional to the existing allocation mechanism, correct?
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lysanderG
Will the 0.9% allocated away from miners and to validators just be added to the existing rewards bucket currently being allocated to validators in CG? IOW, it's not a new reward with a separate allocation mechanism but is instead a reward additional to the existing allocation mechanism, correct?
AFAIK, it goes to the subset of validators in any epoch that actually create challenges.
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Resident
Yes it's working and the Hotspot will not be relayed anymore but it's don't mean that your IP address public is, you can watch your public IP Address and you see it's changing all the Time .
My public IPs do not change. They are static.
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darth savaloy 03/03/2022 1:27 PM
when is the hip 55 going live
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/04/2022 12:43 PM
Literally the post right above yours. Did you read the channel at all?
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Who are stealing my tokens?
18:16
my reward*
18:18
Just sent over 200 packets.
18:18
But, none is shown on the Helium explorer. I call it scam by Helium network people.
18:19
I wonder why for days next to no activity, but now I can see that someone stealing my rewards. Who?
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Milan
I wonder why for days next to no activity, but now I can see that someone stealing my rewards. Who?
This is the wrong channel for this question. Nobody is stealing anything. There is currently a bug with state channels (see #hip-56-improved-state-channel-disputes ) and the fix is currently being voted on, probably going live Monday or Tuesday. Until the fix goes live, hotspots will often not be properly rewarded for data transfer. It's been this way for weeks.
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rawrmaan
This is the wrong channel for this question. Nobody is stealing anything. There is currently a bug with state channels (see #hip-56-improved-state-channel-disputes ) and the fix is currently being voted on, probably going live Monday or Tuesday. Until the fix goes live, hotspots will often not be properly rewarded for data transfer. It's been this way for weeks.
Yeah bug. Okay. Thanks. 😦
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Does this also fix relayed issues? Sick of mine showing as relayed and then not without doing a thing
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wigwams
Does this also fix relayed issues? Sick of mine showing as relayed and then not without doing a thing
Yes. Relayed will no longer be a thing. (edited)
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rawrmaan
Yes. Relayed will no longer be a thing. (edited)
Thanks. Hopefully it’s implemented very quickly
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It’s being done as fast as possible without majorly messing anything up
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rawrmaan
It’s being done as fast as possible without majorly messing anything up
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/05/2022 7:33 AM
the number of off-line hotspots after the last two "mandatory updates" would suggest stuff is "majorly" messed up.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
the number of off-line hotspots after the last two "mandatory updates" would suggest stuff is "majorly" messed up.
It definitely is. But it can get even worse if light hotspot code is not deployed carefully
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rawrmaan
It definitely is. But it can get even worse if light hotspot code is not deployed carefully
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/05/2022 8:04 AM
Is libp2p going away totally, or is it going to be a libp2p connection with gRPC communications on top?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Is libp2p going away totally, or is it going to be a libp2p connection with gRPC communications on top?
libp2p will be totally gone from miners. Only validators will use it. Miner <-> Validator comms will be purely gRPC
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/05/2022 8:06 AM
building some accessory apps, and looking at the dewi grants with a team, TY. remains TCP?
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Yes looks like gRPC is fully TCP based
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rawrmaan
Yes looks like gRPC is fully TCP based
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/05/2022 8:09 AM
TY that will help us a lot in assuring things work with the future network state.
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Almost 2 weeks is passed I think we will need to wait 12 weeks 😵💫
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 03/05/2022 9:37 AM
Cheap Fast Good, you only get 2
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When this will be implemented
12:15
Hip 55 and 56
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rawrmaan
Yes looks like gRPC is fully TCP based
so: is it going to be: TCP 80 (http URI) /(or)/ TCP 443 (https URI) -> HTTP/2 -> gRPC or another TCP port will be used? Can I call this: gRPC over HTTP/2? 🙂 (RFC 7540) https://github.com/grpc/grpc/blob/master/doc/PROTOCOL-HTTP2.md (edited)
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You're getting a little beyond my current knowledge on the subject
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anyway, i like it. i can't wait to get rid of these "not_found" in peer book and max_retry errors when i try to deliver my witness reports using the IPFS (libp2p) 🙂 this is going to be an excellent change! (edited)
16:25
not sure if this is what will be used in the new sys.configs 🙂 (edited)
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Seems likely!
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MajorPain
so: is it going to be: TCP 80 (http URI) /(or)/ TCP 443 (https URI) -> HTTP/2 -> gRPC or another TCP port will be used? Can I call this: gRPC over HTTP/2? 🙂 (RFC 7540) https://github.com/grpc/grpc/blob/master/doc/PROTOCOL-HTTP2.md (edited)
IIRC, the validators were asked to be prepared to open port 8080 for connections from hotspots, I think (but not sure) this is intended for gRPC incoming from the hotspots. (edited)
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I would expect / I would assume that https (tcp/443) was rejected as an option because it: a) would add unnecessary load on the endpoints (light hotspots), b) would make it harder for validators to deploy load balancers / DDOS protections, etc + c) it's pointless to encrypt (TLS) the payload... correct? (edited)
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MajorPain
anyway, i like it. i can't wait to get rid of these "not_found" in peer book and max_retry errors when i try to deliver my witness reports using the IPFS (libp2p) 🙂 this is going to be an excellent change! (edited)
The max retry is getting out of control😂
05:07
Can’t wait to get rid of this
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Is there an estimated time for the HIP55 release?
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Willem2409
Is there an estimated time for the HIP55 release?
Unknown
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Willem2409
Is there an estimated time for the HIP55 release?
Could be tomorrow, could be in 3 months 😄
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JeffRushTDYN 03/06/2022 9:47 AM
I saw 4-12 weeks at some point last week. Hope it is closer to the 4. I have half my units which are basically dead in the water.
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Milan
But, none is shown on the Helium explorer. I call it scam by Helium network people.
Is this like the Superman 2 thing where if we steal enough $0.002 rewards without anyone noticing we’re rich?
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capcom
Is this like the Superman 2 thing where if we steal enough $0.002 rewards without anyone noticing we’re rich?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/06/2022 12:38 PM
Yeah, but it would turn out more like Office Space. 😆
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capcom
Is this like the Superman 2 thing where if we steal enough $0.002 rewards without anyone noticing we’re rich?
Exactly! 😄
15:02
600,000 hotspots times whatever value, imagine!
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capcom
Is this like the Superman 2 thing where if we steal enough $0.002 rewards without anyone noticing we’re rich?
Sounds like Flash Boys
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#cannotwaitforlighthotspots
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Wehn will hip 55 be activated?
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Micidi
Wehn will hip 55 be activated?
Scroll up and read
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JeffRushTDYN 03/09/2022 5:04 AM
Could we get an update on how HIP 55 testing is going at the moment?
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Tarek
Can’t wait to get rid of this
What tool do you use
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Its the miners dashboard
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Will this HIP improve the block times?
15:53
they are getting close to 70 sec right now
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JeffRushTDYN
I saw 4-12 weeks at some point last week. Hope it is closer to the 4. I have half my units which are basically dead in the water.
Assuming 12 so that I'm more patient 😌
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John Mac
Assuming 12 so that I'm more patient 😌
JeffRushTDYN 03/11/2022 9:02 AM
I just want to hear how it is going. Not fun having half my miners dead in the water.
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https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots last updated March 7. makers are still testing on testnet.
This document describes the architecture and technical roadmap planned for
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09:03
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cokes
https://docs.helium.com/mine-hnt/light-hotspots last updated March 7. makers are still testing on testnet.
27 virtual machines only?
01:29
Is that enough for testing?
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Hello everyone!
07:12
So when is HIP 55 gonna take effect?
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Tarek
27 virtual machines only?
I’m also wondering about this small amount of test hotspots. And many of them are offline. (edited)
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Exactly
08:32
And why would they start the voting if the code isn’t finished yet and needs proper testing
08:32
It was obviously going to pass
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Tarek
And why would they start the voting if the code isn’t finished yet and needs proper testing
Voting on a HIP typically happens before there is well tested code. Think of the HIP as a direction for the team: "You should go spend time on this", if the HIP is voted on and doesn't pass, then the team hasn't wasted much time.
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Antoine
So when is HIP 55 gonna take effect?
Cokes literally, in a few messages above tour message, answered this by provoding links to progress reports.
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DeadStock_LTD 03/12/2022 8:49 PM
After Hip 55 is implemented I believe my transmit scale will no longer affect my earnings. I read, at the moment it affects the amount I receive as a challengee. Is this correct? (edited)
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DeadStock_LTD
After Hip 55 is implemented I believe my transmit scale will no longer affect my earnings. I read, at the moment it affects the amount I receive as a challengee. Is this correct? (edited)
No. HIP 55 has no effect on transmit scale or challengee rewards
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John Mac
Cokes literally, in a few messages above tour message, answered this by provoding links to progress reports.
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23:34
Thanks…
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rawrmaan
No. HIP 55 has no effect on transmit scale or challengee rewards
DeadStock_LTD 03/13/2022 6:36 AM
I thought 55 took challengee rewards/responsibilities from hotspots, and gave them to validators... Am I not understanding what a challengee is? I figured it was someone who issued a challenge. (edited)
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DeadStock_LTD 03/13/2022 7:01 AM
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DeadStock_LTD
I thought 55 took challengee rewards/responsibilities from hotspots, and gave them to validators... Am I not understanding what a challengee is? I figured it was someone who issued a challenge. (edited)
It moves challenger rewards to hotspots validators. In a POC: * Challenger is the node that creates the challenge. * Challengee is the node that beacons (sends something over LoRA) * Witnesses are the nodes that hear the LoRA beacon. (edited)
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krby
It moves challenger rewards to hotspots validators. In a POC: * Challenger is the node that creates the challenge. * Challengee is the node that beacons (sends something over LoRA) * Witnesses are the nodes that hear the LoRA beacon. (edited)
DeadStock_LTD 03/13/2022 7:39 AM
Thanks for the definitions. It makes sense.
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krby
It moves challenger rewards to hotspots validators. In a POC: * Challenger is the node that creates the challenge. * Challengee is the node that beacons (sends something over LoRA) * Witnesses are the nodes that hear the LoRA beacon. (edited)
Think you meant moves challenger rewards to validators? Or am I misreading? (edited)
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DeadStock_LTD
I thought 55 took challengee rewards/responsibilities from hotspots, and gave them to validators... Am I not understanding what a challengee is? I figured it was someone who issued a challenge. (edited)
The only part being moved is the "challenged beaconer" that you see under activity on a hotspot. (edited)
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gtelnet
Think you meant moves challenger rewards to validators? Or am I misreading? (edited)
Fixed. Thanks!
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gtelnet
The only part being moved is the "challenged beaconer" that you see under activity on a hotspot. (edited)
DeadStock_LTD 03/13/2022 7:43 PM
Makes sense now. A challengee is one who gets challenged, and sends a beacon. I had that definition wrong. Thanks for the clarification.
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DeadStock_LTD
Makes sense now. A challengee is one who gets challenged, and sends a beacon. I had that definition wrong. Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, and that is challenged beaconer reward is the same as challenger reward. Same meaning just different perspectives (edited)
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Deleted User 03/14/2022 11:50 AM
Anyone know when the update is coming to fix sim card issues/relayed
13:29
News
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Old news
13:39
More than a week old
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Tarek
More than a week old
Relative to the time between updates and the time needed to fully complete hip 55, it is quite new indeed.
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An update on Light Hotspots and HIP 55 is now available in #announcements https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730418759298318346/953065443860545546 (edited)
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cokes pinned a message to this channel. 03/14/2022 4:14 PM
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cokes
An update on Light Hotspots and HIP 55 is now available in #announcements https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/730418759298318346/953065443860545546 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/14/2022 4:16 PM
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FalconPunch 03/14/2022 6:04 PM
Is there any community driven list of makers that have been confirmed to have participated in test-net?
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FalconPunch
Is there any community driven list of makers that have been confirmed to have participated in test-net?
not yet! great idea tho.
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FalconPunch 03/14/2022 6:23 PM
Would it make sense to keep a column on the HIP19 sheet for testnet participation status for HIP55? It's the most comprehensive list of makers. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pOmrMV_oiF0FtR1NOX_pqykKOBsb_QghiNkTlF644DU/edit#gid=1615880681
Full Hotspots March 8 Weekly status: March 8, 2022 next update TUESDAY March 15 at 3p ET. Light Hotspots and Distributors now have their own tabs MOC voting on manufacturer approvals will happen asynchronously. The MOC votes to approve manufacturers, usually within 2 weeks of manufacturer comp...
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BlessedTwister 03/14/2022 7:20 PM
When do you think the light spots will be available for pre-order? and how long from then to receive them?
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If hip-55 means validators create challenges ?
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BlessedTwister
When do you think the light spots will be available for pre-order? and how long from then to receive them?
Mid April ?
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BlessedTwister
When do you think the light spots will be available for pre-order? and how long from then to receive them?
Blackpool Tog 03/15/2022 1:34 AM
Facebook Group - Light Hotspots - Helium
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BlessedTwister
When do you think the light spots will be available for pre-order? and how long from then to receive them?
all the hotspots that are right now in the network will become LIGHT HOTSPTOS trough a firmware update.
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GlobalShock 03/15/2022 2:42 AM
I'm hearing mixed things about light hotspots earnings, some people say we won't earn much anyone and some people say rewards will increase, i don't know what to believe, can someone clear that up for me, please ? (edited)
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GlobalShock
I'm hearing mixed things about light hotspots earnings, some people say we won't earn much anyone and some people say rewards will increase, i don't know what to believe, can someone clear that up for me, please ? (edited)
tldr; overall slightly less than currently but much more consistently.
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groot
tldr; overall slightly less than currently but much more consistently.
GlobalShock 03/15/2022 3:05 AM
Alright, thank you buddy 🙂
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I am just wondering, when HIP55 is deployed, miners won't follow the chain anymore. Is that an option, I mean if I personally want to follow the chain, can I still do that? And how ETLs would work in that case? (Because they were running the same miner app in a server to follow the blockchain)
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bilalhp
I am just wondering, when HIP55 is deployed, miners won't follow the chain anymore. Is that an option, I mean if I personally want to follow the chain, can I still do that? And how ETLs would work in that case? (Because they were running the same miner app in a server to follow the blockchain)
I don't think so. ETL's are not using the miner binary. Also, why would you want the miner to follow the chain?
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Because I want to extract some data out of Blockchain
04:50
Blockchain must be public and there must be a public way to follow it. Currently it flows over p2p by miners. What happens when p2p us gone?
04:51
Yes ETLs are not using the miner binary, that was wrong wording
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bilalhp
Blockchain must be public and there must be a public way to follow it. Currently it flows over p2p by miners. What happens when p2p us gone?
P2p won’t be gone, vals will keep using it, as will etl’s etc. You can always run an unstaked val (edited)
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GlobalShock
I'm hearing mixed things about light hotspots earnings, some people say we won't earn much anyone and some people say rewards will increase, i don't know what to believe, can someone clear that up for me, please ? (edited)
Can't say with much certainty how much more or less we will earn. Though, I can say with 100% certainty, that my units staying consistently online will give me sanity, and absolutely earn more than my units that are now constantly dropping offline.
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groot
P2p won’t be gone, vals will keep using it, as will etl’s etc. You can always run an unstaked val (edited)
You can also go with a blockchain-node. You here as in @bilalhp .. (edited)
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M7
Can't say with much certainty how much more or less we will earn. Though, I can say with 100% certainty, that my units staying consistently online will give me sanity, and absolutely earn more than my units that are now constantly dropping offline.
GlobalShock 03/15/2022 6:17 AM
You are definitely right, but there are tons of devices staying 24/7 ONLINE and not earning that much ( ATM ) so if the earning is going to decrease even more after light hotspot firmware is released, then i believe its also another issue. ( I'm positive that the light hotspot is going to be a really good change for the network) but also afraid of the earning becoming less than now, like for example my miners are doing right now, 1st miner doing, 0.10 HNT, 2nd miner 0.13 HNT, 3rd miner 0.15 HNT and last one 0.20 HNT. that's why i'm a little concerned . (edited)
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BlessedTwister 03/15/2022 6:21 AM
When are hip 54 and 55 going up for vote?
06:22
I have about a dozen full hotspots in boxes unopened and now with this change I'm kicking myself thinking I should've just waited to order these. Esp if the earnings go down.. it'll take wayyy longer for me to just break even on this thing 😬
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GlobalShock
You are definitely right, but there are tons of devices staying 24/7 ONLINE and not earning that much ( ATM ) so if the earning is going to decrease even more after light hotspot firmware is released, then i believe its also another issue. ( I'm positive that the light hotspot is going to be a really good change for the network) but also afraid of the earning becoming less than now, like for example my miners are doing right now, 1st miner doing, 0.10 HNT, 2nd miner 0.13 HNT, 3rd miner 0.15 HNT and last one 0.20 HNT. that's why i'm a little concerned . (edited)
Check out heliumanalytics.io. out of about 450,000 hotspots rewarded daily, there are 260,000 are below .10, 3500, are above .5, and 225 are above 1.
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BlessedTwister
When are hip 54 and 55 going up for vote?
Open them up, get them set up properly. Height and location. if you earn .10, and the price of HNT is $100.00 your crushing it. Long term view (edited)
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M7
Check out heliumanalytics.io. out of about 450,000 hotspots rewarded daily, there are 260,000 are below .10, 3500, are above .5, and 225 are above 1.
GlobalShock 03/15/2022 6:25 AM
Thank you buddy, i will check the website out.
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M7
Open them up, get them set up properly. Height and location. if you earn .10, and the price of HNT is $100.00 your crushing it. Long term view (edited)
BlessedTwister 03/15/2022 6:25 AM
Yup that's my plan.. I'm going to be aggressive during these coming weeks atleast trying to get half them installed outdoors
06:26
Trying to guage how much time I have before light hotspots come on in the masses
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There is a set amount of HNT that has to be mined each month. With light HS's the earnings still need to be mined and distributed. Does anyone have another opinion or info i'm missing?
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GlobalShock 03/15/2022 6:28 AM
Question, Would location / height matter after the light hotspot is released? because i've heard many say it won't matter, so just wanted to make sure about that.
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I have not heard that. It doesn't make sense to me. Where did you read that?
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GlobalShock
You are definitely right, but there are tons of devices staying 24/7 ONLINE and not earning that much ( ATM ) so if the earning is going to decrease even more after light hotspot firmware is released, then i believe its also another issue. ( I'm positive that the light hotspot is going to be a really good change for the network) but also afraid of the earning becoming less than now, like for example my miners are doing right now, 1st miner doing, 0.10 HNT, 2nd miner 0.13 HNT, 3rd miner 0.15 HNT and last one 0.20 HNT. that's why i'm a little concerned . (edited)
First things first, not all setups are created equal. If you have a lone wolf you're going to earn less (actually after HIP55 you'll earn 0) than one with a "perfect" setup. Second, the average HNT that can be earned per hotspots if evenly distributed is 0.076 HNT/day the current network average is hovering between 0.074 - 0.106 HNT/day right now. If everyone is seeing more stable network performance and everyone is getting more PoC activity the network average rewards should fall closer to the theoretical however, better setups will earn better always. (edited)
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Anthonyra
First things first, not all setups are created equal. If you have a lone wolf you're going to earn less (actually after HIP55 you'll earn 0) than one with a "perfect" setup. Second, the average HNT that can be earned per hotspots if evenly distributed is 0.076 HNT/day the current network average is hovering between 0.074 - 0.106 HNT/day right now. If everyone is seeing more stable network performance and everyone is getting more PoC activity the network average rewards should fall closer to the theoretical however, better setups will earn better always. (edited)
Thats exactly how I see it
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Anthonyra
First things first, not all setups are created equal. If you have a lone wolf you're going to earn less (actually after HIP55 you'll earn 0) than one with a "perfect" setup. Second, the average HNT that can be earned per hotspots if evenly distributed is 0.076 HNT/day the current network average is hovering between 0.074 - 0.106 HNT/day right now. If everyone is seeing more stable network performance and everyone is getting more PoC activity the network average rewards should fall closer to the theoretical however, better setups will earn better always. (edited)
GlobalShock 03/15/2022 6:33 AM
Oh i see, thank you for explaining buddy, so that means im safe as my setups are pretty good. Do you suggest testing the location using hotspotRF to see how many witnesses i can get and all the details ? or there is something else i should focus on besides witnesses ?
06:34
Because i'm trying to install my miners in a perfect way and yet i don't know " What perfect is for helium "
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Essentially everything stays the same. You can use hotspotRF or Helium Vision to do initial tests but the ideal way is to get your hands on a RF mapper to get real world data. I think that's getting away from the purpose of this channel. #antennas could be a good channel and maybe even #mappers-iot if you want to do on the ground surveys before install.
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Anthonyra
Essentially everything stays the same. You can use hotspotRF or Helium Vision to do initial tests but the ideal way is to get your hands on a RF mapper to get real world data. I think that's getting away from the purpose of this channel. #antennas could be a good channel and maybe even #mappers-iot if you want to do on the ground surveys before install.
GlobalShock 03/15/2022 6:37 AM
Understood buddy, thank you for your time and for explaining again. much appreciated
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JeffRushTDYN 03/15/2022 7:04 AM
Half my hotspots are dead in the water at the moment. I really need HIP 55 released which will hopefully revive them.
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Anthonyra
First things first, not all setups are created equal. If you have a lone wolf you're going to earn less (actually after HIP55 you'll earn 0) than one with a "perfect" setup. Second, the average HNT that can be earned per hotspots if evenly distributed is 0.076 HNT/day the current network average is hovering between 0.074 - 0.106 HNT/day right now. If everyone is seeing more stable network performance and everyone is getting more PoC activity the network average rewards should fall closer to the theoretical however, better setups will earn better always. (edited)
Could you explain the "lone wolf" earning zero? I'm hoping HIP helps me here with my 8dbi. I'm the somewhat of lone wolf in my setup in top right. It's been brutal, but don't want to move until I see what happens.
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kamehlin
Could you explain the "lone wolf" earning zero? I'm hoping HIP helps me here with my 8dbi. I'm the somewhat of lone wolf in my setup in top right. It's been brutal, but don't want to move until I see what happens.
Lone Wolf hotspots don't have any witnesses. If you have witnesses you're not a lone wolf
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Ok, that helps. I had two on my beacon yesterday, 😂 Appreciate the reply!
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Noticed that the makers are all hidden on testnet,which I'm assuming may be a security measure. Also noticed that a majority of the Hotspots on testnet are either syncing, offline, or are solely beaconing (not witnessing). Obviously, syncing and the other aforementioned issues shouldn't be a factor with light hotspots gateway.rs, so it appears that helium still has much work to do prior to light hotspots source code being deployed on mainnet. If anyone knows better, please do educate me. 🙏🏻
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JeffRushTDYN
Half my hotspots are dead in the water at the moment. I really need HIP 55 released which will hopefully revive them.
What will HIP55 do for you?
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siddiqsol
What will HIP55 do for you?
JeffRushTDYN 03/15/2022 11:37 AM
As they all seem to be in a cycle of falling behind and syncing I am hopeful HIP55 will reduce the individual load and allow them to 'catch up' and operate
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JeffRushTDYN
As they all seem to be in a cycle of falling behind and syncing I am hopeful HIP55 will reduce the individual load and allow them to 'catch up' and operate
Even better, there will be no "catch up" needed. Hotspots will just connect to validators and not need to sync the chain at all!
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krby
Even better, there will be no "catch up" needed. Hotspots will just connect to validators and not need to sync the chain at all!
JeffRushTDYN 03/15/2022 11:54 AM
Yeah this. Expressed better than I could. In any case, need it soon lol
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krby
Even better, there will be no "catch up" needed. Hotspots will just connect to validators and not need to sync the chain at all!
How will this affect esrnings?
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siddiqsol
How will this affect esrnings?
inyoureye408 03/15/2022 12:09 PM
You won’t be paid for creating a challenge anymore. That work will be done by the validators. Everything else earning wise will be the same.
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boy...no one reads the pinned messages, or the history. I'm not surprised, but it's still disappointing. (edited)
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inyoureye408
You won’t be paid for creating a challenge anymore. That work will be done by the validators. Everything else earning wise will be the same.
I cant recall, but how much % of earnings do challenges make up? Also, what benefit does this provide rhe network going to this manner?
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krby
boy...no one reads the pinned messages, or the history. I'm not surprised, but it's still disappointing. (edited)
Disappointing you wont explain something thats super quick to explain. Im sure youve never asked a question tho
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siddiqsol
Disappointing you wont explain something thats super quick to explain. Im sure youve never asked a question tho
I've asked tons of questions! Before asking, I typically search the channel history or pinned messages to see if it has been answered before. IMO, you're asking things that are covered in the actual HIP document. It seems reasonable to me that everyone commenting here read that before asking questions. It's not just you, it's a common thing here. I'm just cranky about it today. (edited)
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John Mac
Noticed that the makers are all hidden on testnet,which I'm assuming may be a security measure. Also noticed that a majority of the Hotspots on testnet are either syncing, offline, or are solely beaconing (not witnessing). Obviously, syncing and the other aforementioned issues shouldn't be a factor with light hotspots gateway.rs, so it appears that helium still has much work to do prior to light hotspots source code being deployed on mainnet. If anyone knows better, please do educate me. 🙏🏻
the UI in explorer assumes a full hotspot. that's why there's a mix of "offline" or "syncing". neither will be true when they launch on mainnet.
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John Mac
Noticed that the makers are all hidden on testnet,which I'm assuming may be a security measure. Also noticed that a majority of the Hotspots on testnet are either syncing, offline, or are solely beaconing (not witnessing). Obviously, syncing and the other aforementioned issues shouldn't be a factor with light hotspots gateway.rs, so it appears that helium still has much work to do prior to light hotspots source code being deployed on mainnet. If anyone knows better, please do educate me. 🙏🏻
there are also no makers listed because anyone can onboard a Hotspot on testnet (for development purposes)
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BlessedTwister
When are hip 54 and 55 going up for vote?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/15/2022 4:30 PM
They already did and passed.
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cokes
there are also no makers listed because anyone can onboard a Hotspot on testnet (for development purposes)
Why not list the known maker's hotspots? A lot of us were/are concerned that our hotspot makers aren't participating in light hotspots gateway.rs testnet due to this.
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there’s no way to enter into testnet who the maker is because there’s no concept of an onboarding server
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cokes
there’s no way to enter into testnet who the maker is because there’s no concept of an onboarding server
Understood, thank you for the clarification.
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inyoureye408 03/15/2022 6:01 PM
Is there somewhere we can list which makers have tested on test net. I think there are a lot of people that are concerned that some of the less responsive hotspot manufacturers may not make sure their software works. Leaving peoples miners essentially bricks.
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your maker will have to manage their own customer communications
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When is this happening? Can’t wait!
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Hello, after the deployment of the HIP 55 current Light Hotspots will be "renamed" to Data Only Hotspots and won't be able to mine HNT via PoC for now. Is it correct understanding?
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yfcz
Hello, after the deployment of the HIP 55 current Light Hotspots will be "renamed" to Data Only Hotspots and won't be able to mine HNT via PoC for now. Is it correct understanding?
That’s right
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rawrmaan
That’s right
Is this Applicable for all miners or only validators
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skyfortune
Is this Applicable for all miners or only validators
I don't understand the question
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yfcz
Hello, after the deployment of the HIP 55 current Light Hotspots will be "renamed" to Data Only Hotspots and won't be able to mine HNT via PoC for now. Is it correct understanding?
For this
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That has nothing to do with validators
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One question. Should we even bother doing the port forwarding or just wait till HIP 55 deployement?
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Lmo49755
One question. Should we even bother doing the port forwarding or just wait till HIP 55 deployement?
GlobalShock 03/16/2022 2:13 PM
I think u should do the port forwarding until HiP 55 is activated, Because HiP55 won't be activated before Mid-April.
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GlobalShock
I think u should do the port forwarding until HiP 55 is activated, Because HiP55 won't be activated before Mid-April.
Thanks for advice. I am trying but ATT is just a pain to deal with. Their router sucks!
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xX4Shy2High0Xx 03/16/2022 10:38 PM
I feel like it's already activated because my hotspot is online and not relayed and I turned off port forwarding and still no relay status so far and I am still receiving rewards as well.
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xX4Shy2High0Xx
I feel like it's already activated because my hotspot is online and not relayed and I turned off port forwarding and still no relay status so far and I am still receiving rewards as well.
Did you just notice this today?
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xX4Shy2High0Xx 03/16/2022 11:55 PM
Yes
23:56
And still no issues so far
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Hmm maybe hopefully. Im sick and tired of this port forward
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Lmo49755
Hmm maybe hopefully. Im sick and tired of this port forward
xX4Shy2High0Xx 03/16/2022 11:59 PM
Check on hotspotty.net as long it can ping you should be alright I think if not just port forward but like I said no issues and it's already the next day
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xX4Shy2High0Xx 03/17/2022 12:06 AM
It says likely online on hotspotty which is true my last challenge was 38 min ago and 41 min ago. It also seems to say not relayed as well.
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rawrmaan
That’s right
darth savaloy 03/17/2022 1:30 AM
so no poc is that just short term
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xX4Shy2High0Xx
It says likely online on hotspotty which is true my last challenge was 38 min ago and 41 min ago. It also seems to say not relayed as well.
Im so excited on this. I don’t care about lower earnings as long as its more steady and consistent. The price of HNT is so undervalued right now.
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darth savaloy
so no poc is that just short term
There’s two types of Light Hotspots (LHS). Data-only and PoC enabled LHS. The difference between the two is simply one chip. The PoC enabled one has an ECC chip which allows it to sign data/txns which is required for PoC. While data-only doesn’t have that chip and simply routes data. Current LHS on chain are data-only. They are only rewarded for data transfers. After testnet the PoC enabled LHS will have the green light for mainnet. (edited)
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Anthonyra
There’s two types of Light Hotspots (LHS). Data-only and PoC enabled LHS. The difference between the two is simply one chip. The PoC enabled one has an ECC chip which allows it to sign data/txns which is required for PoC. While data-only doesn’t have that chip and simply routes data. Current LHS on chain are data-only. They are only rewarded for data transfers. After testnet the PoC enabled LHS will have the green light for mainnet. (edited)
GlobalShock 03/17/2022 5:11 AM
Question buddy, so the people that has the full miners, will be able to do challenges, beacons, witnesses etc on light hotspot. but not POC Challenge, correct ? (edited)
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GlobalShock
Question buddy, so the people that has the full miners, will be able to do challenges, beacons, witnesses etc on light hotspot. but not POC Challenge, correct ? (edited)
Yes, they'll be updated to the PoC enabled LHS since they have the chip. They just won't create the challenges anymore.
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Anthonyra
Yes, they'll be updated to the PoC enabled LHS since they have the chip. They just won't create the challenges anymore.
GlobalShock 03/17/2022 7:21 AM
Thank you for explaining buddy
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GlobalShock
Thank you for explaining buddy
No problem!
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As i see lhs are coming? Not that far away anymore or 🤔
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mineHNT
As i see lhs are coming? Not that far away anymore or 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/17/2022 6:42 PM
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 03/17/2022 9:24 PM
when HIP 55 lambo?
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21:25
Troll
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Is there a date set when full hotspots become light hotspots?
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Inza-Onoa
Is there a date set when full hotspots become light hotspots?
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Thank you!! Uhm i think i misread that post. It tells about light hotspots going active end march if everything is going to plan. Apparently it means full hotspots going light hotspot aswell by that date? (edited)
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I don't think you actually read the whole announcement. It says the code for light hotspots will be merged onto mainnet end of march but not activated yet. It will be activated couple weeks later in mid april.
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Can anyone tell me when would be hip 55 activated in all miners?
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YUVRAJ
Can anyone tell me when would be hip 55 activated in all miners?
@Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com
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Guys was reading through pins and Announcement and it seems that hip55 is getting pretty close...can we expect it operational by.end of April?
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Stefz
Guys was reading through pins and Announcement and it seems that hip55 is getting pretty close...can we expect it operational by.end of April?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/20/2022 4:19 AM
Yes
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That would be good no more relayed in my 4g connection miners
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Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com 03/20/2022 9:53 AM
It will solve both relayed and non-relayed failures
09:54
imagine the missed potential earnings vs that tiny 0.9%
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TomasD [DOLCA pool] 03/20/2022 11:27 AM
When hip55 will be activated so what exactly will do Validators? Challenges? PoC rewards will still for HotSpots, is it so?
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@Wrath - demo.hntmonitor.com i m totally in favour of hip55 for exactly those reasons
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rawrmaan
That’s right
??? I thought light hotspots could mine HNT!
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Royt9327
??? I thought light hotspots could mine HNT!
They can. Right now the “light hotspots” currently on-chain will be renamed to data-only hotspots and will only earn HNT from data transfer, as they already do. All current “full” hotspots will be the new “light hotspots” and will earn via PoC and data transfer just as they do now. (edited)
12:56
It’s a little confusing with the swapping of terminology.
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rawrmaan
It’s a little confusing with the swapping of terminology.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/20/2022 1:33 PM
They never should have called them light hotspots in the first place. facepalm
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Is HIP55 going to move the current denylist to validators?
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bilalhp
Is HIP55 going to move the current denylist to validators?
It is attached to the challenger role, so I assume so?
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JeffRushTDYN 03/21/2022 6:54 AM
Help me HIP55. You're my only hope.
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So, by mid April my bobcat will stop losing sync. Is that it?
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bilalhp
Is HIP55 going to move the current denylist to validators?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/21/2022 11:53 AM
No. That's HIP40
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Drulo
So, by mid April my bobcat will stop losing sync. Is that it?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/21/2022 11:54 AM
Nope. There will be nothing to sync in the first place 😉
11:55
It's going to be great 🥰
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No more complaints basically. It will be a real plug and play system
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Won't people just find something else to complain about?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No. That's HIP40
Yes but technically the "current" way of denylist cannot happen in the miner after HIP 55. This is exactly the reason why I asked
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PaulM
Won't people just find something else to complain about?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/21/2022 12:28 PM
Well of course coolcry
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bilalhp
Yes but technically the "current" way of denylist cannot happen in the miner after HIP 55. This is exactly the reason why I asked
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/21/2022 12:28 PM
oh I see what you're saying. Hmm.. yeah...
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bilalhp
Yes but technically the "current" way of denylist cannot happen in the miner after HIP 55. This is exactly the reason why I asked
I assume that the denylist will be handled by the Validator in the same/similar manner it is today which is filtered at the challenger via beacon/witness receipts. Validators will have the denylist just like hotspots do today
12:29
then once HIP40 gets approved and built, its an entirely different thing but still handled by validators
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That still will have a huge plus before HIP40 because the problem of "hotspot manufacturers that don't implement the denylist" will be gone
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12:34
Currently a lot of gamers still earning much more than average despite being in the denylist
12:34
We should rush HIP55 😂
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bilalhp
We should rush HIP55 😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/21/2022 12:57 PM
A huge change like that is the last thing that should be rushed
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Considering switching to pocv11 took 6 months :)
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Omer-xCasp3r 03/22/2022 12:38 AM
With HIP55 enabled, what stops people from connecting multiple hotspots on the same internet line in one home? Is there going to be something like 1 ip adress per hotspot or something similar?
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Omer-xCasp3r
With HIP55 enabled, what stops people from connecting multiple hotspots on the same internet line in one home? Is there going to be something like 1 ip adress per hotspot or something similar?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 12:51 AM
HIPP-55 is not a anti-spoofer measure (edited)
00:51
But PoC and TS would discourage people from doing that
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Omer-xCasp3r
With HIP55 enabled, what stops people from connecting multiple hotspots on the same internet line in one home? Is there going to be something like 1 ip adress per hotspot or something similar?
I don't think this HIP will change this from how it works currently. Only difference is where the challenges are being made. The same IP restrictions would still be in affect (edited)
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Omer-xCasp3r 03/22/2022 3:01 AM
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 @Parylizer I know it isnt, I think I may have asked it wrong. As far as I can see in my region, more people are buying hotspots and setting them up on the same roof. They are just asserting the location a little bit further than the other devices. They arent able to witness eachother and yes their transmit scale is decreasing, but their earnings will stay the same since they earn it mostly via witnessing. And in order to not be relayed on the same internet, they use vpn boxes with different ip’s to port forward. But after hip55, there wont be any syncing, challenging etc. so I assume there isnt a need for port forwarding, so no “relayed” statuses anymore? So they wouldnt need a vpn box anymore and their behaviour would likely increase. (edited)
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Omer-xCasp3r
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 @Parylizer I know it isnt, I think I may have asked it wrong. As far as I can see in my region, more people are buying hotspots and setting them up on the same roof. They are just asserting the location a little bit further than the other devices. They arent able to witness eachother and yes their transmit scale is decreasing, but their earnings will stay the same since they earn it mostly via witnessing. And in order to not be relayed on the same internet, they use vpn boxes with different ip’s to port forward. But after hip55, there wont be any syncing, challenging etc. so I assume there isnt a need for port forwarding, so no “relayed” statuses anymore? So they wouldnt need a vpn box anymore and their behaviour would likely increase. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 3:04 AM
I don't quite understand what it has to do with #hip-55-validator-challenges . They would hit a target limit in there hex sooner or later
03:05
also their RSSI will probably be unbelievable and result in invalids (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I don't quite understand what it has to do with #hip-55-validator-challenges . They would hit a target limit in there hex sooner or later
Omer-xCasp3r 03/22/2022 3:17 AM
My concern mainly is what I wrote on the end, so not getting relayed and therefore no need for different ip’s in order to port forward, which leads to increase the multiple setups on roofs. Which, again, isnt really helping the network. What will happen if you just plug in 2-3 miners or more in the same internet so same ip? I think that there should be a mechanism to discourage that. Now, being relayed discourages people to do that (not that it has an significant impact on earnings). Im all in for hip55, just curious if this is also helping spoofers to do what they do more easy.
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Omer-xCasp3r
My concern mainly is what I wrote on the end, so not getting relayed and therefore no need for different ip’s in order to port forward, which leads to increase the multiple setups on roofs. Which, again, isnt really helping the network. What will happen if you just plug in 2-3 miners or more in the same internet so same ip? I think that there should be a mechanism to discourage that. Now, being relayed discourages people to do that (not that it has an significant impact on earnings). Im all in for hip55, just curious if this is also helping spoofers to do what they do more easy.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/22/2022 3:18 AM
The relayed status is not a measure against spoofing, it's a technical issue. Although hypothetically you are right, the positives of implementing Light Hotspots far outmatches the consequences. (edited)
03:19
Again, PoC, #hip-17-hex-based-density-rewards and #hip-15-beaconing-scaled-rewards should deal with this
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IIRC, the PoC targeting already checks for multiple on one IP. But this really isn't related to HIP-55. You can find out more about the one-per-IP limit in #poc-discussion maybe?
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Omer-xCasp3r
My concern mainly is what I wrote on the end, so not getting relayed and therefore no need for different ip’s in order to port forward, which leads to increase the multiple setups on roofs. Which, again, isnt really helping the network. What will happen if you just plug in 2-3 miners or more in the same internet so same ip? I think that there should be a mechanism to discourage that. Now, being relayed discourages people to do that (not that it has an significant impact on earnings). Im all in for hip55, just curious if this is also helping spoofers to do what they do more easy.
even if we add a measure on how many device one ip can have they will just stick to their vpn boxes. moreover a lot of places use CGNAT and it will mess up things
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BusyPanda
even if we add a measure on how many device one ip can have they will just stick to their vpn boxes. moreover a lot of places use CGNAT and it will mess up things
I'm saying that measure already exists (I think). That's why some people use VPNs now, not just for port forwarding reasons. It isn't new to HIP-55 or anything. (edited)
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krby
I'm saying that measure already exists (I think). That's why some people use VPNs now, not just for port forwarding reasons. It isn't new to HIP-55 or anything. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/22/2022 7:27 PM
Yep. All hotspots on one IP are treated as one hotspot as far as receiving challenges.
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Nobodyindeed 03/22/2022 8:49 PM
Hi all, I am new and surveying. Does this hip already implement in current helium github source code? validators , light hotspots ?
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Hello, my HS has constructed challenge more than 60 times since from the start but non of them turned into challenged beaconer. Any idea what can casue that?
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Kahler Krempling 03/23/2022 2:29 AM
Anyone knows a rough percentage of Hotspots being relayed and/ or run over an LTE router? I guess if these hotspots are online and stable after the HIP, they might have the biggest impact on reward change.
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ahba
Hello, my HS has constructed challenge more than 60 times since from the start but non of them turned into challenged beaconer. Any idea what can casue that?
Are you relayed?
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No, it never shows relayed. Everything with port & ip seems normal.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/23/2022 4:48 PM
This is not a support channel. Please take it to #hotspot-help
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Stefz
Guys was reading through pins and Announcement and it seems that hip55 is getting pretty close...can we expect it operational by.end of April?
From where does one read these so called pins.... Damn I sound so stupid
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adityabanka
From where does one read these so called pins.... Damn I sound so stupid
Top right, next to the search bar. The little pin icon.
23:50
There s nothing here
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Oh, I was talking about the desktop app. I dunno where it is on the Android app
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adityabanka
Click to see attachment 🖼️
Omer-xCasp3r 03/24/2022 12:29 AM
Press on the name of the channel, the screen will shift to the left. Then you can see it top right.
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Got it ..thanx
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Omer-xCasp3r
My concern mainly is what I wrote on the end, so not getting relayed and therefore no need for different ip’s in order to port forward, which leads to increase the multiple setups on roofs. Which, again, isnt really helping the network. What will happen if you just plug in 2-3 miners or more in the same internet so same ip? I think that there should be a mechanism to discourage that. Now, being relayed discourages people to do that (not that it has an significant impact on earnings). Im all in for hip55, just curious if this is also helping spoofers to do what they do more easy.
This actually is a bit off topic, but we have a good reason to have multiple HS on the same IP. They're installed on (different) roofs and get the internet using a p2p wifi-connection. I could get a dozen of VPN's with some extra IPv4 addresses, but I don't see the benefit in that. I really don't think we should punish people who have multiple HS on the same IP, as there are good reasons to do so. Having the same IP doesn't mean that the HS are physically close to each other.
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Ashwin
This actually is a bit off topic, but we have a good reason to have multiple HS on the same IP. They're installed on (different) roofs and get the internet using a p2p wifi-connection. I could get a dozen of VPN's with some extra IPv4 addresses, but I don't see the benefit in that. I really don't think we should punish people who have multiple HS on the same IP, as there are good reasons to do so. Having the same IP doesn't mean that the HS are physically close to each other.
Omer-xCasp3r 03/24/2022 3:48 AM
Good point, direct ethernet connection wouldnt be practicle/possible but didnt think about p2p wifi connection. But think they would all get threated as one hotspot when receiving challenges for example, dont know how healthy it is for the network either.
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adityabanka
From where does one read these so called pins.... Damn I sound so stupid
This is not a stupid question! You're asking how to find something that will help you learn things yourself. Appreciate the effort! (edited)
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20th april come faster please🥲
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Tarek
20th april come faster please🥲
20 April will be activated?
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Resident
20 April will be activated?
According to the latest update, yes.
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I hope
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Total witnesses = 180 Succesfully delivered = 98 (54.44%) Failed = 82 (45.56%) My hotspot before April 20 be like: https://tenor.com/view/foreveralone-that70sshow-kitty-drinkingnsfw-gif-14837732 (edited)
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Ashwin
This actually is a bit off topic, but we have a good reason to have multiple HS on the same IP. They're installed on (different) roofs and get the internet using a p2p wifi-connection. I could get a dozen of VPN's with some extra IPv4 addresses, but I don't see the benefit in that. I really don't think we should punish people who have multiple HS on the same IP, as there are good reasons to do so. Having the same IP doesn't mean that the HS are physically close to each other.
Some isp that are using microwave repeater to spread their internet also do this. They don't provide public ip addresses to customers, so customers end up getting the same public ip addresses. Then with this kind of setup, the hs will get penalized cause they would be treated as having 1 ip address (edited)
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Resident
20 April will be activated?
since when do we have a date?
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Someone sayed i did asked too
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Let's hope for beginning of May. Expectation management 🙂
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thestephse
Let's hope for beginning of May. Expectation management 🙂
April 20
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thestephse
Let's hope for beginning of May. Expectation management 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 03/25/2022 10:39 AM
😂 1
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped ok this one was pretty good 😁
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Question , I know with hip55 it's said that the data usage will drop to a a fraction of what it is now. Does anyone have a ballpark figure? 20 gigs? 10? Or like 50gigs?
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Artfi
Question , I know with hip55 it's said that the data usage will drop to a a fraction of what it is now. Does anyone have a ballpark figure? 20 gigs? 10? Or like 50gigs?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/27/2022 4:37 AM
Maybe even less then 120mb, but depends on the data transfers too. You have to keep in mind that we wont have to keep a synced blockchain ont he hotspot anymore, which frees alot of data
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malder
Total witnesses = 180 Succesfully delivered = 98 (54.44%) Failed = 82 (45.56%) My hotspot before April 20 be like: https://tenor.com/view/foreveralone-that70sshow-kitty-drinkingnsfw-gif-14837732 (edited)
where did you got this data from
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ubi
Some isp that are using microwave repeater to spread their internet also do this. They don't provide public ip addresses to customers, so customers end up getting the same public ip addresses. Then with this kind of setup, the hs will get penalized cause they would be treated as having 1 ip address (edited)
TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange 03/27/2022 10:43 AM
does these microwaves conflict with our rf waves from our antenna?I am asking because there is one 2 meters from from my antenna (edited)
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Tarek
20th april come faster please🥲
Where do you see this info?
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TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange
does these microwaves conflict with our rf waves from our antenna?I am asking because there is one 2 meters from from my antenna (edited)
And yes. They do. Ask in general
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TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange
does these microwaves conflict with our rf waves from our antenna?I am asking because there is one 2 meters from from my antenna (edited)
It depends. Some wireless ISPs run on 900Mhz (which conflicts with LoRaWAN in the US) others run on 1.3Ghz or 2.4Ghz or something else entirely. You'd have to find out what specifically the ISP uses.
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krby
It depends. Some wireless ISPs run on 900Mhz (which conflicts with LoRaWAN in the US) others run on 1.3Ghz or 2.4Ghz or something else entirely. You'd have to find out what specifically the ISP uses.
TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange 03/27/2022 11:04 PM
thanks man i will search for that
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TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange
thanks man i will search for that
Easiest would be to just call them.
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TSAKIMAK| Suiswap|HeliosExchange
does these microwaves conflict with our rf waves from our antenna?I am asking because there is one 2 meters from from my antenna (edited)
A gsm bts is more likely to interfere with lora signal than a microwaves used by isp. Some gsm are using the 900ish mhz
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Can anyone tell when hip55 will be implemented
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iam
Can anyone tell when hip55 will be implemented
#blockchain-announcements
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@Tarek cant find 😔
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Can’t find what
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Any lite spot chat anywhere?
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wigwams
Any lite spot chat anywhere?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/29/2022 9:29 AM
Not really, feel free to ask in #general or #questions-and-answers
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Not really, feel free to ask in #general or #questions-and-answers
👍 cheers Peso
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Not really, feel free to ask in #general or #questions-and-answers
although maybe there should be? Those two channels are....pretty low signal-to-noise
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krby
although maybe there should be? Those two channels are....pretty low signal-to-noise
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 03/29/2022 12:13 PM
Will relay it to the team 👍
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krby
although maybe there should be? Those two channels are....pretty low signal-to-noise
Do you know if HIP 55 will resolve the SD card issues on the RAK V1's?
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M7
Do you know if HIP 55 will resolve the SD card issues on the RAK V1's?
Most probably will
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Thats not that reassuring. 🙃 I am holding out on replacing cards. Thanks
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M7
Do you know if HIP 55 will resolve the SD card issues on the RAK V1's?
It will reduce future wear on the cards, and will likely stop any issues related to running out of space, but will not cause a currently worn out card to get better. With that said a worn out card may be less of an issue after HIP-55 goes into effect, but it's hard to say that it will solve all problems. I pulled an SD card out of an OG Helium miner and doing any operation on it from my desktop PC took foooooorrrrrreeeeeeevvvvvvveeeeeerrrr. Just saving a 5 line text file took 30+ seconds. (edited)
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krby
It will reduce future wear on the cards, and will likely stop any issues related to running out of space, but will not cause a currently worn out card to get better. With that said a worn out card may be less of an issue after HIP-55 goes into effect, but it's hard to say that it will solve all problems. I pulled an SD card out of an OG Helium miner and doing any operation on it from my desktop PC took foooooorrrrrreeeeeeevvvvvvveeeeeerrrr. Just saving a 5 line text file took 30+ seconds. (edited)
I tried on one unit, and got spooked! Is there a way to tell if the card is "worn out" vs the stress on the hotspot / SD card as a result of the current over ask, which is going to be resolved by HIP-55??
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M7
I tried on one unit, and got spooked! Is there a way to tell if the card is "worn out" vs the stress on the hotspot / SD card as a result of the current over ask, which is going to be resolved by HIP-55??
No, not really. None of us know how HIP-55 is going to perform on real hardware on mainnet. If you've done one before, then you know the procedure and only you can make the risk/reward decision for that. If you're nervous, maybe wait and see? If you still have trouble post HIP-55 activation, then start troubleshooting then.
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krby
No, not really. None of us know how HIP-55 is going to perform on real hardware on mainnet. If you've done one before, then you know the procedure and only you can make the risk/reward decision for that. If you're nervous, maybe wait and see? If you still have trouble post HIP-55 activation, then start troubleshooting then.
Thats the plan for now. HIP-55 Can't come soon enough. Always appreciate your time and detailed response. (edited)
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Are rewards for challenge creation shifting to validators with this as well?
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jaxtonv
Are rewards for challenge creation shifting to validators with this as well?
Yup, that's what the HIP specifies. The rewards for challenge creation move with the work for doing it. (edited)
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Yeah that’s I had read. Just wanted to verify. Hotspot rewards keep getting hammered. I’m glad I’m not just starting.
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When will (date) hip 55 will come into existence?
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naseerr
When will (date) hip 55 will come into existence?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/01/2022 3:53 AM
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Testnet reset scheduled today (per #blockchain-announcements)
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Can we have this hip sooner😫
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Tarek
Can we have this hip sooner😫
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/01/2022 9:54 PM
Would you rather it be done right, or quickly?
👆 3
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I dont understand the point of view by some people like gristleking, that this hip will even improve your earnings, how ? If there are no relayed hotspots out there anymore there will be even less hnt to mine for all the other hs owners, the hs that are relayed yet will maybe see a better performance and some more rewards but all other hs never, just think about it , yeah biggest point no relayed challengers great, but now the challenger will perform better because he is not relayed anymore, this will be a good show to watch ☺
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mineHNT
I dont understand the point of view by some people like gristleking, that this hip will even improve your earnings, how ? If there are no relayed hotspots out there anymore there will be even less hnt to mine for all the other hs owners, the hs that are relayed yet will maybe see a better performance and some more rewards but all other hs never, just think about it , yeah biggest point no relayed challengers great, but now the challenger will perform better because he is not relayed anymore, this will be a good show to watch ☺
Right now, your hotspot is not able to report all the witnessing, which means you are not rewarded for some witness events. After this hip is deployed, your hotspot will be able to report all witness events, which means you will now be rewarded for those. Same this will happen to other hotspots obviously, so in the end it means some will start seeing higher rewards and others less. (My bet is that good setups will earn more and bad setups will earn less)
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ricopt5
Right now, your hotspot is not able to report all the witnessing, which means you are not rewarded for some witness events. After this hip is deployed, your hotspot will be able to report all witness events, which means you will now be rewarded for those. Same this will happen to other hotspots obviously, so in the end it means some will start seeing higher rewards and others less. (My bet is that good setups will earn more and bad setups will earn less)
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/02/2022 6:00 AM
Interesting, i have it the other way in my head. Good will earn less and bad will earn a bit more. Time will tell😂
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The entire network is seeing 50% drop rate with regards too beacons. They're requested but are lost for various reasons mostly network as of today. I'd be happy to see that drop % to be closer to 10% with light hotspots. There will still be reasons for some to be dropped but it'll be drastically closer to 0% than today. With that being said, if every setup good or bad is at the mercy of the 50% reduction and then it's lifted then all hotspots will see more PoC activity in return. Since all are seeing the same increase % wise the rewards will remain equal or shift to a new equilibrium average per hotspot. It won't be a seesaw where good setups get drastically less and bad setups drastically more. A good setup will always out perform a bad one. We should simply see a higher % of hotspots at the lower equilibrium and stability with rewards. If anything stability should be the goal we shoot for. PoC rewards are already on their way out we all should be focusing on how to get more data moving or else we all need to figure out a new retirement plan.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Interesting, i have it the other way in my head. Good will earn less and bad will earn a bit more. Time will tell😂
Yeah, I just did some math and actually it will only depend on how many receipts are not delivered per hotspot. Assuming every hotspot has the same percentage of non-delivered witnesses, then after this hip is deployed there will be no change in rewards. But of course not every hotspot has the same percentage of non-delivered witness, so there's no way to properly predict what will happen. (edited)
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Anthonyra
The entire network is seeing 50% drop rate with regards too beacons. They're requested but are lost for various reasons mostly network as of today. I'd be happy to see that drop % to be closer to 10% with light hotspots. There will still be reasons for some to be dropped but it'll be drastically closer to 0% than today. With that being said, if every setup good or bad is at the mercy of the 50% reduction and then it's lifted then all hotspots will see more PoC activity in return. Since all are seeing the same increase % wise the rewards will remain equal or shift to a new equilibrium average per hotspot. It won't be a seesaw where good setups get drastically less and bad setups drastically more. A good setup will always out perform a bad one. We should simply see a higher % of hotspots at the lower equilibrium and stability with rewards. If anything stability should be the goal we shoot for. PoC rewards are already on their way out we all should be focusing on how to get more data moving or else we all need to figure out a new retirement plan.
NL_Miniterror_NL 04/02/2022 7:03 AM
But the % of drops isnt the same for everybody. I have seen differences in the sys.config file for local seedbook size. So some are affected more then others.
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NL_Miniterror_NL
But the % of drops isnt the same for everybody. I have seen differences in the sys.config file for local seedbook size. So some are affected more then others.
I get that I do, and maybe what I said doesn't match with what I'm thinking. But the other big thing is not all setups are created equal to begin with. Good setups today will remain good setups post launch. Bad setups (if because of network alone) should see improvements. But as the entire network is doing more PoC activity the rewards per unit will decrease but since it's across the whole we should see a rebalance compared to a robinhood response.
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So the Hip will be activated maybe in 2030
👎 5
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NL_Miniterror_NL
Interesting, i have it the other way in my head. Good will earn less and bad will earn a bit more. Time will tell😂
More like everyone will with similar set up and location advantage will have sort of equal earnings
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Is this update coming on 15 april?
08:56
or is it delayed?
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Pendraloth
Is this update coming on 15 april?
In the pin... The goal is to merge all Light Hotspot work onto Mainnet in an inactive state. Then 2 weeks after that (mid-April), we enable everything.
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Pendraloth
Is this update coming on 15 april?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/03/2022 9:57 AM
4/20
😏 7
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Anthonyra
The entire network is seeing 50% drop rate with regards too beacons. They're requested but are lost for various reasons mostly network as of today. I'd be happy to see that drop % to be closer to 10% with light hotspots. There will still be reasons for some to be dropped but it'll be drastically closer to 0% than today. With that being said, if every setup good or bad is at the mercy of the 50% reduction and then it's lifted then all hotspots will see more PoC activity in return. Since all are seeing the same increase % wise the rewards will remain equal or shift to a new equilibrium average per hotspot. It won't be a seesaw where good setups get drastically less and bad setups drastically more. A good setup will always out perform a bad one. We should simply see a higher % of hotspots at the lower equilibrium and stability with rewards. If anything stability should be the goal we shoot for. PoC rewards are already on their way out we all should be focusing on how to get more data moving or else we all need to figure out a new retirement plan.
There is no motivation to buy devices, especially since the network is not set up to beacon continuously. what kind of sense does it make for Beacons to only occur once or twice a day. Why can't we find a way for all hotspots to beacon 100% of the time - or is this already the case?
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alphaqt
There is no motivation to buy devices, especially since the network is not set up to beacon continuously. what kind of sense does it make for Beacons to only occur once or twice a day. Why can't we find a way for all hotspots to beacon 100% of the time - or is this already the case?
Beaconing is a PoC concept only to help prove coverage exists. It has nothing to do with Lorawan devices at all. If a device/sensor is using the network, it can send uplinks and receive downlinks all day without issue
👍 1
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Two more days to merge hip 55 code to mainnet. Just over two weeks until light hotspots gateway.rs activation 🤗
😀 2
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whats a good light HS to buy?
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TheWicked
whats a good light HS to buy?
I haven't seen many light hotspot announcements from vendors so far besides Dragino HP0A & Nebra (edited)
10:37
I could be missing something though
👍 1
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FalconPunch
I could be missing something though
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/04/2022 12:21 PM
longAP... there is only a few that have already announced.
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Could hip55 possibly be activated earlier if all manufacturers updated and were ready to go?
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There are more network participants than just hotspots and all need ample time to upgrade. Validators usually do not just ‘wing it’ for example.
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Validators, Routers, Wallet Nodes
13:40
We’ll also use that time to “bake” the code and make sure we have checked everything
❤️ 1
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Great, thanks!
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FalconPunch
I haven't seen many light hotspot announcements from vendors so far besides Dragino HP0A & Nebra (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/04/2022 5:46 PM
So what you're saying is just Dragino 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So what you're saying is just Dragino 😉
FalconPunch 04/04/2022 5:46 PM
Pretty much haha
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FalconPunch
Pretty much haha
OptimusPrime 04/04/2022 8:04 PM
That’s not the light hotspot. It is data only gateway and cannot perform PoC to earn hnt. (edited)
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FalconPunch 04/04/2022 8:08 PM
Which? Dragino does have a light hotspot coming out. They announced an indoor and an outdoor variation that both support PoC
20:09
HP0A and HP0C
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FalconPunch
Which? Dragino does have a light hotspot coming out. They announced an indoor and an outdoor variation that both support PoC
OptimusPrime 04/04/2022 8:36 PM
I might misunderstand the announcements. I thought it is the one on sale now 😂 (edited)
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OptimusPrime
I might misunderstand the announcements. I thought it is the one on sale now 😂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/05/2022 3:03 PM
Yeah, they never should have labeled their data-only 'spots as "light hotspots".
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Good morning after sending various emails and numerous messages in their discord. Syncrobit still not answering their costumers about light hotspots. Can someone confirm if they are part of the testing/update or they are the ones not upgrading. Rather know before 4/19 in order to have a backup
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SiamParagon 04/06/2022 8:03 AM
May i ask after switching to light hotspot, we don't need to open 44158 anymore, is it correct?😁 🙏
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SiamParagon
May i ask after switching to light hotspot, we don't need to open 44158 anymore, is it correct?😁 🙏
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/06/2022 8:07 AM
Yes 👍
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yes 👍
SiamParagon 04/06/2022 8:09 AM
Thank you 🙏👍🏻
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08:12
And internet traffic should be way less than now , right.
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SiamParagon
And internet traffic should be way less than now , right.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/06/2022 8:15 AM
Yup!
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SiamParagon 04/06/2022 8:17 AM
That’s good 🙂 thank you.
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SiamParagon
That’s good 🙂 thank you.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/06/2022 8:28 AM
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Do we have a new release today for the light hotspot merge?
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Tarek
Do we have a new release today for the light hotspot merge?
the day is young for us based devs
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When is HIP 55
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@cokes how could there have been an issue with the selection process for how hotspots are chosen for challenges if the entire point of this hip is to move challenges from hotspots to validators? In other words am I misunderstanding your meaning of the word challenges or am I completely misunderstanding hip 55?
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John Mac
@cokes how could there have been an issue with the selection process for how hotspots are chosen for challenges if the entire point of this hip is to move challenges from hotspots to validators? In other words am I misunderstanding your meaning of the word challenges or am I completely misunderstanding hip 55?
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 6:57 AM
The challenge get's constructed by the validators but the one who is challenged needs to be selected. And somewhere here lies the culprit they have found 🙂
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feuerkralle2011
The challenge get's constructed by the validators but the one who is challenged needs to be selected. And somewhere here lies the culprit they have found 🙂
Got it thanks for the clarification 🙏🏻
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John Mac
Got it thanks for the clarification 🙏🏻
feuerkralle2011 04/07/2022 7:05 AM
You're welcome
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Many of my hotspots are on a 4G cellular connection, where I get a new unique public IP address from my provider every 24 hours. Will HIP55 hurt my ability to participate in PoC activities? As there is less network gossip
07:13
I am happy with HIP55, as every month I just run out of my 100GB data bundles from all the blockchain activity of my hotspots
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Hummertime
Many of my hotspots are on a 4G cellular connection, where I get a new unique public IP address from my provider every 24 hours. Will HIP55 hurt my ability to participate in PoC activities? As there is less network gossip
You don't need gossip anymore, you just connect to a validator and it will know how to find you.
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groot
You don't need gossip anymore, you just connect to a validator and it will know how to find you.
Thanks for the explanation. So also a changing IP address does not matter as the hotspots will continuously be connected to a validator?
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They will probably reconnect, but yes.
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Hummertime
Thanks for the explanation. So also a changing IP address does not matter as the hotspots will continuously be connected to a validator?
With HIP-55, hotspots will always be connecting outbound, nothing coming inbound. So no port forwarding or similar mechanisms needed. Your changing IP address will cause your hotspot to reconnect to validators, but it should do that automatically and quickly. Regular residential ISPs change the public IP too, just not very often in most cases, so the reconnect on IP change has to work. (edited)
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krby
With HIP-55, hotspots will always be connecting outbound, nothing coming inbound. So no port forwarding or similar mechanisms needed. Your changing IP address will cause your hotspot to reconnect to validators, but it should do that automatically and quickly. Regular residential ISPs change the public IP too, just not very often in most cases, so the reconnect on IP change has to work. (edited)
Super clear answer, thanks. My home internet connection has had the same public IP since I started my subscription several years ago. But I guess it differs per country and ISP
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Hummertime
Super clear answer, thanks. My home internet connection has had the same public IP since I started my subscription several years ago. But I guess it differs per country and ISP
Ya, I believe changing is pretty rare these data with the major residential ISPs around the world, but it does happen some places still. My completely made up theory about why is this: ISPs thought often changing IPs made hosting services at home to the public harder. But, doing it might break active connections, and more and more customers would notice things like a video stream hiccuping. I completely made this up. Under the hood, it's really about whether the ISP honors the router's request to keep it's IP when renewing the DHCP lease. From what I understand, this is the default in nearly every DHCP server now. (edited)
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Sounds similar to my experience, the lack of static ip means they can make changes in their networks without having to communicate with the customer. The reality is that, unless they need to make changes to their network, you need to let your dhcp lease expire to get a new ip, and those leases are measured in days, not hours. gRPC can handle changing connections out of the box iirc. (edited)
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Nobodyindeed 04/07/2022 6:25 PM
From HIP55, the hotspot needs to connect the validator with gRPC. Is the hotspot allowed to connect to variety validators? Or just single one? If single one, how does it choose which to connect to? Will the connection limited to the same region ? (edited)
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SiamParagon 04/08/2022 6:43 AM
regarding of region, since most of validators are in US, should US Ip address have better connection?
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Need some advice, I'm trying to be honest, and I don't know what to do. Prior to today, one of my hotspots never beaconed to another hotspot more than 80km away. Somehow, it just beaconed to 5 different hotspots each over 500km away. I'm no gamer, wouldn't lnow how even if I was a dishonest thief. However, somehow my hotspot was witnessed by 5 different hotspots 500km away. Please advise what I may do?
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krby
Ya, I believe changing is pretty rare these data with the major residential ISPs around the world, but it does happen some places still. My completely made up theory about why is this: ISPs thought often changing IPs made hosting services at home to the public harder. But, doing it might break active connections, and more and more customers would notice things like a video stream hiccuping. I completely made this up. Under the hood, it's really about whether the ISP honors the router's request to keep it's IP when renewing the DHCP lease. From what I understand, this is the default in nearly every DHCP server now. (edited)
SiamParagon 04/08/2022 7:01 AM
that's means no need to apply static ip from isp, right? that's good..
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SiamParagon
that's means no need to apply static ip from isp, right? that's good..
Correct!
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John Mac
Need some advice, I'm trying to be honest, and I don't know what to do. Prior to today, one of my hotspots never beaconed to another hotspot more than 80km away. Somehow, it just beaconed to 5 different hotspots each over 500km away. I'm no gamer, wouldn't lnow how even if I was a dishonest thief. However, somehow my hotspot was witnessed by 5 different hotspots 500km away. Please advise what I may do?
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 04/08/2022 3:37 PM
Report those five to GitHub deny list
👍 2
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John Mac
Need some advice, I'm trying to be honest, and I don't know what to do. Prior to today, one of my hotspots never beaconed to another hotspot more than 80km away. Somehow, it just beaconed to 5 different hotspots each over 500km away. I'm no gamer, wouldn't lnow how even if I was a dishonest thief. However, somehow my hotspot was witnessed by 5 different hotspots 500km away. Please advise what I may do?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/08/2022 3:40 PM
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Hotspot b58 Addresses 11bUpp21Pu6rVnK3VHadnB5u1zF3tRJkGAUC93ShHu7HsqVYmj7 112fPWHCWRRj1KLzuJyVz3yis45RJUQmE1HpeZ2yNdsbfRNR4Fpg 112WLThYBjP3cW64fVUipU44ZQ84CTTJpsJZNkas38wmsN5qV2uF Discord Handle Jo...
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krby
With HIP-55, hotspots will always be connecting outbound, nothing coming inbound. So no port forwarding or similar mechanisms needed. Your changing IP address will cause your hotspot to reconnect to validators, but it should do that automatically and quickly. Regular residential ISPs change the public IP too, just not very often in most cases, so the reconnect on IP change has to work. (edited)
krby - With HIP-55, do all miners become Light Hotspots - this seems to be the case.
👍 1
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alphaqt
krby - With HIP-55, do all miners become Light Hotspots - this seems to be the case.
Yes they do. It is up to each maker to ensure their software works when the light hotspot mode is activated via chain var. From what I can tell, on makers (except Deeper, of course) are now testing on testnet. To be clear, "light hotspots" = Hotspots that do PoC and data transfer but do not have to follow the chain. "data only hotspots" = Hotspots that only do data transfer. (edited)
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during the hotspot upgrade process, will Full Hotspots still work?
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alphaqt
during the hotspot upgrade process, will Full Hotspots still work?
It will be like a switch (technically this is a chain variable), once the variable is activated, all existing network hotspots will transition to "light hotspot mode" and validators will take over the PoC work. I expect it will be bumpy for a few blocks (because this is a big change)
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Deleted User 04/10/2022 9:54 AM
P2P Ping-Check: Starting P2P Check P2P Ping-Check: Ping failed for /p2p/11NERTFagVLsAqR1fg1DaJYEZBAmfVrXSCsUFp3rUNHmxBwYRmJ/p2p-circuit/p2p/11WnEyASXfYo47UdxT7FS5KE4QSP5t4fZaV3LyQ1GV2CnyLzwKD P2P Peer Book: Checking P2P Peer Book Online Status: P2P/IP4 connection Failed. Online Status: Hotspot has recent POC activity and seems to be online.
09:54
this is now going on for 8 days
09:54
for 75 % of my miners
09:54
bye bye rewards, bye bye witnesses
09:55
great network .... verry stable ..... well done ....
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great network .... verry stable ..... well done ....
It seems like you accidentally posted this to the wrong channel, maybe you want #hotspot-help or #poc-discussion ?
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krby
great network .... verry stable ..... well done ....
It seems like you accidentally posted this to the wrong channel, maybe you want #hotspot-help or #poc-discussion ?
Deleted User 04/10/2022 11:02 AM
i post wherever some guys who can do something on it see it . as i lose faith day by day 😦 then you have premiul locations like towers and poles ( what's rented ! ) and struggles keep continue 🙂
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Deleted User
i post wherever some guys who can do something on it see it . as i lose faith day by day 😦 then you have premiul locations like towers and poles ( what's rented ! ) and struggles keep continue 🙂
Cool, since you're ignoring the culture about what goes where, we'll just ignore your posts rather than try and help.
💯 3
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krby
Cool, since you're ignoring the culture about what goes where, we'll just ignore your posts rather than try and help.
Thats kind off bitchy dont you think?
👎 1
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It was☹️ I thought it matched the that thing I was replying to, who couldn't be bothered to follow the norms everyone else does But that's shouldn't be an excuse. I am not always perfectly patient and sweet.
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krby
It was☹️ I thought it matched the that thing I was replying to, who couldn't be bothered to follow the norms everyone else does But that's shouldn't be an excuse. I am not always perfectly patient and sweet.
You both did the the wrong thing, just say it to him if he says something rude just ignore it, you dont know how bad reputation does this discord have..
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krby
Cool, since you're ignoring the culture about what goes where, we'll just ignore your posts rather than try and help.
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:01 PM
maybe create another 100 sub channels 😉
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secretboy
Thats kind off bitchy dont you think?
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:02 PM
i can handle it but thx. not all are discord kings :p
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krby
Cool, since you're ignoring the culture about what goes where, we'll just ignore your posts rather than try and help.
Deleted User 04/10/2022 1:03 PM
i know this culture here is full of jalous people and self made kings & queens who think discord is life and a reflection of real life :))
facepalm 1
13:04
and norms ? c'mon man ... it's like we are in class ... sorry Sir i won't do it anymore Sir . Please forgive me Sir ...
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Deleted User
i know this culture here is full of jalous people and self made kings & queens who think discord is life and a reflection of real life :))
@secretboy is right, I should have just ignored rather than call you out. That was wrong. I started off with a direction to what I thought would be more useful channels for you and you responded with what I read is "I'll do whatever I want". I was cranky about something in real life and reacted to an easy target. That wasn't right.
sorry Sir i won't do it anymore Sir . Please forgive me Sir
It's not seeking permission or forgiveness. It's courtesy in someone else's space (not mine, Helium's) . You came here asking for help and you state you don't give a crap about what guidelines people here have setup. It's playing nice with others that you're asking to help you.
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krby
Yes they do. It is up to each maker to ensure their software works when the light hotspot mode is activated via chain var. From what I can tell, on makers (except Deeper, of course) are now testing on testnet. To be clear, "light hotspots" = Hotspots that do PoC and data transfer but do not have to follow the chain. "data only hotspots" = Hotspots that only do data transfer. (edited)
Nobodyindeed 04/10/2022 5:47 PM
How about new to join the development? I still have no idea how to start and test HIP55 in testnet. How should the chain var be ? validator, miner and gateway-rs seems run individually, how to combine them or how to verify they are working normally ? Many thanks.
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krby
It will be like a switch (technically this is a chain variable), once the variable is activated, all existing network hotspots will transition to "light hotspot mode" and validators will take over the PoC work. I expect it will be bumpy for a few blocks (because this is a big change)
Nobodyindeed 04/10/2022 5:52 PM
Is it known expectation that once all full hotspots switch to light hotspots, the hotspot owners will lose one of the ways to earn HNT by acting as a challenger?
👍 1
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Nobodyindeed
Is it known expectation that once all full hotspots switch to light hotspots, the hotspot owners will lose one of the ways to earn HNT by acting as a challenger?
Yes
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Where is an ETA for light hotspot activation?
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Nicola
Where is an ETA for light hotspot activation?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 1:26 AM
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Deleted User 04/11/2022 8:45 AM
this P2P issues will stay for weeks or there comes a fix ?
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Nicola
Where is an ETA for light hotspot activation?
End of the month
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Nicola
Where is an ETA for light hotspot activation?
we will know more by "end of busines, pacific time" today
👍 2
14:04
so, about 3 ish hours from now
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BiggieJohn
we will know more by "end of busines, pacific time" today
Once the go is given, it will be 2 weeks until switch over
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Hello guyz new announcement made for light hotspots are they the solution of relayed ?
👍 1
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YUVRAJ
Hello guyz new announcement made for light hotspots are they the solution of relayed ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:08 PM
Yes, once active, relayed will not be a thing anymore.
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Damm bro how much time more u are expecting it to be happen?
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YUVRAJ
Damm bro how much time more u are expecting it to be happen?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/11/2022 11:09 PM
Check the pined posts 🙂
23:09
Or just read up a few messages
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Explain please lightspot are Just a firmware update lot of people don't understand 🤔
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Monkey🐒
Explain please lightspot are Just a firmware update lot of people don't understand 🤔
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 2:17 AM
Yup, unless you buy a Lighthotspot (edited)
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No i won't i Just want to take my full hostspot with the new firmware. I can or i Will be forced to switch to buy a light hotspot??? (edited)
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Monkey🐒
No i won't i Just want to take my full hostspot with the new firmware. I can or i Will be forced to switch to buy a light hotspot??? (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 2:20 AM
Nope, if you own a full hotspots, it will just be a software update (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Nope, if you own a full hotspots, it will just be a software update (edited)
I don't know why then people are getting mad about this update 😅
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Monkey🐒
I don't know why then people are getting mad about this update 😅
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/12/2022 2:26 AM
People are stup... Stubborn
Troll 1
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GlobalShock 04/12/2022 3:23 AM
Guys what's the internet connection speed required after light hotspot is activated ?
03:23
Would a speed of 500kbps be enough for the miners or requires higher speed ?
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its happening tomorrow?
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GlobalShock
Guys what's the internet connection speed required after light hotspot is activated ?
Kamshtak
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bobleader
Kamshtak
GlobalShock 04/12/2022 3:48 AM
😋
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Heik bet2adeha metle 3am betba7besh
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bobleader
Heik bet2adeha metle 3am betba7besh
GlobalShock 04/12/2022 3:49 AM
Yess 🤣
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mimik14
its happening tomorrow?
Yuppss
06:13
Too excited for it to happen
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YUVRAJ
Too excited for it to happen
Yes im exticed too!
06:48
i have deployed 15 Miners on LTE connection, when light hotspots arrive they all will be non-relayed, waiting for this moment so long (edited)
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mimik14
i have deployed 15 Miners on LTE connection, when light hotspots arrive they all will be non-relayed, waiting for this moment so long (edited)
Wait the update for lightspots gets pushed tomorrow?! So my relayed hotposts will no longer be relayed tomorrow? 😱
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mDevin
Wait the update for lightspots gets pushed tomorrow?! So my relayed hotposts will no longer be relayed tomorrow? 😱
No, #announcements
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mDevin
Wait the update for lightspots gets pushed tomorrow?! So my relayed hotposts will no longer be relayed tomorrow? 😱
On 3th may it will be
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mDevin
Wait the update for lightspots gets pushed tomorrow?! So my relayed hotposts will no longer be relayed tomorrow? 😱
Tomorrow is the beginning switch to light hotspots
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What’s the reason the date got pushed back?
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12:04
I thought we needed only 2 weeks not 3 between the merge and the activation
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Tarek
What’s the reason the date got pushed back?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 12:26 PM
#⸺ announcements ⸺
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It doesn’t state why we need 3 weeks instead of 2 (edited)
facepalm 2
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try reading more than just the latest announcement.
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Tarek
It doesn’t state why we need 3 weeks instead of 2 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 12:53 PM
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Tarek
It literally says 2 weeks on that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/12/2022 1:13 PM
Did you keep reading down?
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Tarek
It literally says 2 weeks on that
and then later messages explain why the delay from the original estimate. (edited)
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krby
and then later messages explain why the delay from the original estimate. (edited)
HipHopBlond 04/13/2022 1:40 PM
people are not here to read, we're here to print money 😄
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coolcry 1
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HipHopBlond
people are not here to read, we're here to print money 😄
sad but true.
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When validators take over challenges, will they do this work during consensus groups? Validators earn between 2.47 to 2.874 Hnt per CG reward. I’m curious how much this will increase. (edited)
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Marvelous
When validators take over challenges, will they do this work during consensus groups? Validators earn between 2.47 to 2.874 Hnt per CG reward. I’m curious how much this will increase. (edited)
validators will propose poc challenges with every heartbeat which is every 100 blocks. Except, when they are in CG, they wont generate new challenges. because it takes time for the beacons to occur and witnesses to be returned, it could be that a poc initiated by a non-CG validator completes later once that same validator is in CG. rewards will given according to the epoch in which the validator submits and has accepted the receipt transaction to the blockchain. so, roughly every few epochs, expect to see rewards. tbd on exactly how large each reward should be, but on a monthly/average basis rewards should increase by 15% assuming the number of validators stays the same.
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Marvelous
When validators take over challenges, will they do this work during consensus groups? Validators earn between 2.47 to 2.874 Hnt per CG reward. I’m curious how much this will increase. (edited)
Nobodyindeed 04/13/2022 10:37 PM
Is your validator can earn HNT already? where didi you deploy your validator? Thanks.
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Nobodyindeed
Is your validator can earn HNT already? where didi you deploy your validator? Thanks.
I moved to Stakejoy a few months back.
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Marvelous
I moved to Stakejoy a few months back.
Nobodyindeed 04/13/2022 10:58 PM
I am not familiar with Stakejoy. Does it mean not really get reward with $HNT but can test the reward behavior with another coin? Or what you mentioned about the CG is just a question not the actual situation you met. (edited)
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Nobodyindeed
I am not familiar with Stakejoy. Does it mean not really get reward with $HNT but can test the reward behavior with another coin? Or what you mentioned about the CG is just a question not the actual situation you met. (edited)
CG = Consensus Group rewards from running a validator on the Helium network to earn HNT. Read up on: https://www.helium.com/stake https://stakejoy.com/
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Marvelous
CG = Consensus Group rewards from running a validator on the Helium network to earn HNT. Read up on: https://www.helium.com/stake https://stakejoy.com/
Nobodyindeed 04/13/2022 11:08 PM
I know it what the CG and validator is. I mean that my validator run via testnet which there's no connected hotspots and never earn any HNT for PoC or CG. But yours can earn HNT by CG. So I just wanna know if mine is normal or not or something I missed
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Nobodyindeed
I know it what the CG and validator is. I mean that my validator run via testnet which there's no connected hotspots and never earn any HNT for PoC or CG. But yours can earn HNT by CG. So I just wanna know if mine is normal or not or something I missed
I’m not talking about testnet. Only validators with 10k staked Hnt earn Hnt. (edited)
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Marvelous
I’m not talking about testnet. Only validators with 10k staked Hnt earn Hnt. (edited)
Nobodyindeed 04/14/2022 1:49 AM
It's misunderstanding by the exact number about per CG reward you mentioned.
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Nobodyindeed
It's misunderstanding by the exact number about per CG reward you mentioned.
CG reward amount variations. (edited)
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@Nobodyindeed : You only get selected to CG every so often, depends on the number of total vals, the penalties of everyone and you. If you never got rewarded TNT (not HNT) on testnet for your validator, I suspect it isn't setup right, or you didn't run long enough.
05:55
The TNT or HNT per CG depends on: * How much of the coin per epoch is allocated to CG (this is different on testnet than mainnet) * How many validators in CG (this is also different on testnet and mainnet, and has changed on testnet a few times)
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krby
The TNT or HNT per CG depends on: * How much of the coin per epoch is allocated to CG (this is different on testnet than mainnet) * How many validators in CG (this is also different on testnet and mainnet, and has changed on testnet a few times)
Nobodyindeed 04/14/2022 6:12 PM
Got it, thanks.
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Marvelous
CG reward amount variations. (edited)
Nobodyindeed 04/14/2022 7:34 PM
Is this from mainnet? The validators and full hotspots can work for mining ? Suppose that current hotspots should still be full mode and the validators only could earn CG reward before all hotspots upgrade to be light, is it? (edited)
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Omer-xCasp3r 04/15/2022 1:34 AM
Afaik there is a potential little performance boost when we increase peerbook size, right? After HIP55, is this “increasing the peerbook” still a thing? Will there be a peerbook so large?
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Peerbooks will no longer be a thing
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okay i have a question, when this hip is activated, will you raise the activity? if validators can handle it, will you raise it to something that was before to like 8-6 hours?
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secretboy
okay i have a question, when this hip is activated, will you raise the activity? if validators can handle it, will you raise it to something that was before to like 8-6 hours?
No need for that. The network will be stable then, which means you will basically get the same amount of HNT per day with higher or lower POC rate.
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ZombieFerrets 04/15/2022 6:08 PM
Man i can't wait for this HIP to get implemented. I'm so sick of being challenged by broken Challengers that result in my beacons having 0 witnesses
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ricopt5
No need for that. The network will be stable then, which means you will basically get the same amount of HNT per day with higher or lower POC rate.
fingers crossed it goes well , but if there are failure points yet to be identified or in the new implementation, were still stuck on unnecessarily large beacon intervals at that point in time,affecting expanding areas with not many hotspots,(not the same amount of HNT always) there may be no reason not to go back to the previous beacon interval providing the validators can handle the load. (edited)
02:51
it would provide more consistency to earnings if anything
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When will get implemented any new news?
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can't they do it sooner?>
17:08
the network is kinda dead for me
17:09
it's a miracle when a beacon happens right now
17:11
Will POC interval go back to 4 hours after validator challenges?
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Pendraloth
the network is kinda dead for me
For you and 700k other users. We're all in the same shit here. Wait for 03.05. and pray there will be no more delays and that at the beginning it'll work at least a bit better.
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1Hunit_Tone 04/18/2022 6:15 AM
Any updates to when HIP 55 be implemented?
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1Hunit_Tone
Any updates to when HIP 55 be implemented?
Where updates always go. Yes.
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we need it faster
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Spoken like the manager of every software project, ever. coolcry
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groot
Spoken like the manager of every software project, ever. coolcry
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/18/2022 1:04 PM
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Any update regarding this?
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is the update taking place today?
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No, new firmware started to push today, goes live may 3rd
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ZombieFerrets 04/20/2022 9:40 AM
May third cannot come fast enough
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12:06
there are some days when rewards go down by 50 %
12:06
I don't understand where that HNT goes
12:06
is it bad luck for me or less HNT is produced in that day?
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Pendraloth
is it bad luck for me or less HNT is produced in that day?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/20/2022 12:27 PM
sometimes both.
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Pendraloth
I don't understand where that HNT goes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/20/2022 12:27 PM
it goes to other transactions
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Pendraloth
I don't understand where that HNT goes
Less HNT gets produced. HIP55 should get us back up above 95% consistently... Hopefully...
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/21/2022 2:23 AM
This not related to this HIP, please keep this channel on topic
02:23
removing off-topic
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
This not related to this HIP, please keep this channel on topic
What's the topic here? Someone send me to the wrong place
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papajm
What's the topic here? Someone send me to the wrong place
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/21/2022 2:25 AM
title of the channel, Validator challenges
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Hello Guys i have a miner that apparently has problem with the port memory, the blockhaing start to sync but after a cumple of time end and dont sync anymore , i have change the memory and do the same , my question is, when the light hotspot are activate my hotspot will do PoC ?
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GIOSDQ
Hello Guys i have a miner that apparently has problem with the port memory, the blockhaing start to sync but after a cumple of time end and dont sync anymore , i have change the memory and do the same , my question is, when the light hotspot are activate my hotspot will do PoC ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/22/2022 10:27 AM
It won't be a problem anymore
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
It won't be a problem anymore
Thanks, I will wait 🙏🏻
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Hey everyone, I'm from India and I want to know that after HIP55 does witnesses reduce in India? since there is no staking of HNT for validators.
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faraz1017
Hey everyone, I'm from India and I want to know that after HIP55 does witnesses reduce in India? since there is no staking of HNT for validators.
Staking of HNT has nothing to do with region. You can stake from India. The requirements are to have 10,000 HNT and to run the validator software on a server somewhere, ideally in a data center. HIP55 will not reduce witnesses in India or anywhere else. It moves the PoC challenge generation work to from hotspots to the validators. Doing this means hotspots no longer have to stay in sync with the chain or be a part of the p2p network. So no more sync issues on hotspots and no more concern about being relayed or needing a port forward.
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krby
Staking of HNT has nothing to do with region. You can stake from India. The requirements are to have 10,000 HNT and to run the validator software on a server somewhere, ideally in a data center. HIP55 will not reduce witnesses in India or anywhere else. It moves the PoC challenge generation work to from hotspots to the validators. Doing this means hotspots no longer have to stay in sync with the chain or be a part of the p2p network. So no more sync issues on hotspots and no more concern about being relayed or needing a port forward.
So witnesses will not be reduced after update?
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faraz1017
So witnesses will not be reduced after update?
Witnesses will not be reduced BECAUSE of the update. HIP-55 has nothing to do with witnessing. Other things might affect witnessing before or after the update.
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krby
Witnesses will not be reduced BECAUSE of the update. HIP-55 has nothing to do with witnessing. Other things might affect witnessing before or after the update.
What about total earnings after update?
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faraz1017
What about total earnings after update?
That's a difficult topic. On the one hand, PoC rewards will be moved from hotspots to validators because validators will now be doing the PoC challenge creation work. But, there should be fewer PoC and witness failures do to relaying and sync issues which should increase rewards for some hotspots.
13:10
The overall goal of HIP-55 is to get rid of the blockchain syncing and relaying issues on hotspots in an effort to improve the overall network. It does move PoC challenge creation rewards from the hotspots, but the overall network improvement should be better for everyone.
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krby
The overall goal of HIP-55 is to get rid of the blockchain syncing and relaying issues on hotspots in an effort to improve the overall network. It does move PoC challenge creation rewards from the hotspots, but the overall network improvement should be better for everyone.
Okay, but after this update what's the probability of earning in India? Does it Increase, decrease or equal (average)
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faraz1017
Okay, but after this update what's the probability of earning in India? Does it Increase, decrease or equal (average)
It's clear you want a simple yes or no answer. I do not have a simple answer to this question because there isn't a single simple answer. That's why I said: That's a difficult topic. Instead, I gave you the things that HIP-55 changes, I do not know if India as a whole or you specifically will earn more, less, or the same because of HIP-55. (edited)
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Okay, so when this update will be active?
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Planned for May 3rd. Please check the announcements. This is often called "Light Hotspot activation"
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Okay, I have one last question, Does HIP55 update affect earnings region wise or as a whole word?
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krby
Planned for May 3rd. Please check the announcements. This is often called "Light Hotspot activation"
Okay
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is there a reason why manufacturers have not updated to the latest version yet?
05:04
usually the updates were applied quickly
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Testa
is there a reason why manufacturers have not updated to the latest version yet?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/24/2022 5:07 AM
Just ask them?
05:07
I think heltec updated theirs (edited)
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Hello guys I have a question, when the light hotspot are activated, how I will know that muy hotspots it’s ok , because now i know that, by checking the sync with the blockchain and checking is the port 44158 it’s open in the miner, but how i will know that after light hotspot activated (edited)
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Honestly im worried about helium project future
07:30
But i still believe in it
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GIOSDQ
Hello guys I have a question, when the light hotspot are activated, how I will know that muy hotspots it’s ok , because now i know that, by checking the sync with the blockchain and checking is the port 44158 it’s open in the miner, but how i will know that after light hotspot activated (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/24/2022 7:31 AM
Well if you can ping it from the api, it should work
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Well if you can ping it from the api, it should work
But it will not be any tools like a dashboard i don’t know , something Lije that, because I think that the ping don’t warranty anything, for example, how we Will know that the miner it’s communicating with validators 🤷🏻‍♂️ (edited)
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GIOSDQ
But it will not be any tools like a dashboard i don’t know , something Lije that, because I think that the ping don’t warranty anything, for example, how we Will know that the miner it’s communicating with validators 🤷🏻‍♂️ (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/24/2022 7:35 AM
When you earn rewards, that would be the most easy way (edited)
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07:35
You cana lso do a bluetooth diagnosis
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You cana lso do a bluetooth diagnosis
Ok that could be , but the diagnostic has to be different for now
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GIOSDQ
Ok that could be , but the diagnostic has to be different for now
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/24/2022 7:37 AM
Let's just wait until the update rolls out, if you still are unsure, you can ask me in #questions-and-answers
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Let's just wait until the update rolls out, if you still are unsure, you can ask me in #questions-and-answers
Thanks
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/24/2022 12:10 PM
Please ask in #hotspot-help or #questions-and-answers
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ElijahGroves 04/25/2022 2:51 PM
Will the light hotspot activation be pretty much all at the same time on the 3rd, or will it be gradual depending on hotspot manufacturers and network performance?
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ElijahGroves
Will the light hotspot activation be pretty much all at the same time on the 3rd, or will it be gradual depending on hotspot manufacturers and network performance?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/25/2022 3:10 PM
The firmware already went out. Just a matter of activating it.
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As soon as the chain variable is updated, all hotspots will become light hotspots
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Deleted User 04/25/2022 11:00 PM
Morning all. Does anyone know if light hotspots still need to connect to seed.helium.io? Would be great if not, as some UK mobile operators block it currently, I guess someone realised they could knock a lot of data from their network and not have people build another network on their infrastructure.
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Deleted User
Morning all. Does anyone know if light hotspots still need to connect to seed.helium.io? Would be great if not, as some UK mobile operators block it currently, I guess someone realised they could knock a lot of data from their network and not have people build another network on their infrastructure.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/25/2022 11:36 PM
That's there update server, isn't it? Obviously it still needs firmware updates.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
That's there update server, isn't it? Obviously it still needs firmware updates.
Deleted User 04/25/2022 11:37 PM
It's where the peerbook is grabbed.
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Deleted User
It's where the peerbook is grabbed.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/25/2022 11:39 PM
Ah, sorry. No need for peerbooks anymore, since LHS are communicating with validators
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Ah, sorry. No need for peerbooks anymore, since LHS are communicating with validators
Deleted User 04/25/2022 11:39 PM
That's what I need to confirm.
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Ok 👌 after hip 55 no ports needed. One question 🤔?I need static or a dynamic ip address?
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takamori
Ok 👌 after hip 55 no ports needed. One question 🤔?I need static or a dynamic ip address?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/26/2022 1:07 PM
You’re a Hotspot owner and you keep hearing the term Light Hotspots, but you still don’t know what it all means.
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We should open up a pool regarding how many delays there'll be before the actual activation 😅
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Best way to mess up the activation of a huge update: rush it.
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groot
Best way to mess up the activation of a huge update: rush it.
Omer-xCasp3r 04/27/2022 2:08 AM
i.e PoCv11 😂
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Deleted User 04/27/2022 2:22 AM
Does anyone know if or when de light hotspot firmware updat for the SenseCAP is going to be pushed?
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Deleted User
Does anyone know if or when de light hotspot firmware updat for the SenseCAP is going to be pushed?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/27/2022 2:25 AM
probably sensecap, could you ask on their discord?
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Deleted User
Does anyone know if or when de light hotspot firmware updat for the SenseCAP is going to be pushed?
I got a notification TODAY
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
probably sensecap, could you ask on their discord?
Deleted User 04/27/2022 6:21 AM
Of course. Sorry new to all this discord thing haha...
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Deleted User
Of course. Sorry new to all this discord thing haha...
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/27/2022 6:22 AM
No problem
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Royt9327
I got a notification TODAY
Deleted User 04/27/2022 6:24 AM
I was looking on their page but cant see nothing. I think it's pushed anyway as my firmware version is: 2022.04.19.0
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Deleted User
I was looking on their page but cant see nothing. I think it's pushed anyway as my firmware version is: 2022.04.19.0
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 04/27/2022 6:26 AM
They just announced it on their discord
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
They just announced it on their discord
Deleted User 04/27/2022 6:27 AM
haha about timing...just woken up
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There will be another one before may 11, if my interpretation of recent #announcements is correct at least.
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Sorry has the update release date been pushed to May 11th from May 3rd? I'm not sure if I read it wrong or if this is separate from the light hotspot update
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GoodM3
Sorry has the update release date been pushed to May 11th from May 3rd? I'm not sure if I read it wrong or if this is separate from the light hotspot update
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/27/2022 12:34 PM
One in the same 🙂
12:34
HIP55 = Light Hotspots + Validator Challengers
12:35
You’re a Hotspot owner and you keep hearing the term Light Hotspots, but you still don’t know what it all means.
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So May 11th will be the new activation date?
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GoodM3
So May 11th will be the new activation date?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/27/2022 12:54 PM
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we need it NOW
01:51
and fix it after if it doesn't work properly 😄
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QQQ
we need it NOW
Are you suggesting we should risk halting the chain or similar breaking issues just for some more PoC activity?
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with every small update they have to give 1 week or more time for manufacturers to react
02:07
we might end up not seeing light hotspots this month
02:07
if they release it as it is, if something breaks there will be no other choice than to fix it fast 😄
02:08
i think facebook motto was something like this
02:08
move fast and break things (edited)
02:08
could be good tactic
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QQQ
could be good tactic
Could be a good tactic if you're facebook and can deploy your new software to all network participants with the press of a button, not so much with Helium, in my opinion at least.
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02:13
Think about it from a client perspective (the actual cllients, sensor users for example), would you rather have a network that works or one where people have some more PoC activity?
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QQQ
move fast and break things (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 04/28/2022 10:38 AM
FYI, that motto got changed a while back. It's now "Move fast with stable infra".
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any news? 😄
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Pendraloth
any news? 😄
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/02/2022 9:34 AM
News are a bad thing 😉 (edited)
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Jeff Alberda 05/02/2022 9:57 AM
Once this takes place the only things that a hotspot will be using internet for are updates, and the input/outputs of lora right? How much data does one witness report use, and how much does transmitting a beacon use?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
News are a bad thing 😉 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/02/2022 10:27 AM
"no news is good news" 🙂
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Jeff Alberda
Once this takes place the only things that a hotspot will be using internet for are updates, and the input/outputs of lora right? How much data does one witness report use, and how much does transmitting a beacon use?
i mostly read that it will be a few hundred MB / month
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Runner
i mostly read that it will be a few hundred MB / month
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/02/2022 12:19 PM
More likely a few gigs a month. (edited)
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What happens to the hotspots that are intentionally relayed to hide the fact that there are multiple hotspots on one network? Will their IP address be visible to validators? Will validators recognize and reward only once to an IP address?
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clemsonteg
What happens to the hotspots that are intentionally relayed to hide the fact that there are multiple hotspots on one network? Will their IP address be visible to validators? Will validators recognize and reward only once to an IP address?
I don't think it would be possible to recognize and reward only once to an IP address since many ISPs use 1 public address for many clients who share it. These clients have their private IP address in ISP's subnetwork.
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tezar
I don't think it would be possible to recognize and reward only once to an IP address since many ISPs use 1 public address for many clients who share it. These clients have their private IP address in ISP's subnetwork.
Thanks. Just curious. I connected with a user on hotspotty and he has 3 hotspots in his house with 2 on relay. I’ve tried to help him deploy them and provide good coverage, but hes just leaving them there.
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clemsonteg
Thanks. Just curious. I connected with a user on hotspotty and he has 3 hotspots in his house with 2 on relay. I’ve tried to help him deploy them and provide good coverage, but hes just leaving them there.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/02/2022 4:24 PM
They're just hurting themselves. 🤷‍♂️
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They're just hurting themselves. 🤷‍♂️
Except hes spoofing 2 of them. I’ve reported him on the denylist, but nothing yet. I was hoping the validator challenges would help expose him.
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clemsonteg
Except hes spoofing 2 of them. I’ve reported him on the denylist, but nothing yet. I was hoping the validator challenges would help expose him.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/02/2022 4:58 PM
How is he spoofing? Asserting the locations elsewhere?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
How is he spoofing? Asserting the locations elsewhere?
Yup. Neighboring cells. He gets tags for invalids. You can tell the signals are too strong.
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tezar
I don't think it would be possible to recognize and reward only once to an IP address since many ISPs use 1 public address for many clients who share it. These clients have their private IP address in ISP's subnetwork.
There is already built in filtering per IP now. So these hotspots are already getting penalized. This isn't very common for residential ISPs I don't think. Definitely not in the US, but could be other places, I guess.
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krby
There is already built in filtering per IP now. So these hotspots are already getting penalized. This isn't very common for residential ISPs I don't think. Definitely not in the US, but could be other places, I guess.
I’m sure there is IP filtering when they open multiple ports on the same IP, but what I’m seeing is he occasionally received valid witnesses for one of the others because usually 2 out of 3 are relayed. So the listen address isn’t an IP address at all.
17:05
Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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ElijahGroves 05/02/2022 9:24 PM
Sooo... Is HIP 55 activated now?
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21:24
How does the transition work? When will bobcats turn into light hotspots
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clemsonteg
Thanks. Just curious. I connected with a user on hotspotty and he has 3 hotspots in his house with 2 on relay. I’ve tried to help him deploy them and provide good coverage, but hes just leaving them there.
Why not just leave the man alone, he spent the money on them, he can do what he wants with them, and reporting him for nothing, you really are a bad person my guy..
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ElijahGroves
Sooo... Is HIP 55 activated now?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/02/2022 11:52 PM
You’re a Hotspot owner and you keep hearing the term Light Hotspots, but you still don’t know what it all means.
02:59
waiting for light hotspots
02:59
coolcry
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krby
There is already built in filtering per IP now. So these hotspots are already getting penalized. This isn't very common for residential ISPs I don't think. Definitely not in the US, but could be other places, I guess.
It's common for mobile isp in Europe to use one public ip for number of their users. So you're saying is thay even if I do everything by the book I'm still being penalized? (edited)
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Wolverine
It's common for mobile isp in Europe to use one public ip for number of their users. So you're saying is thay even if I do everything by the book I'm still being penalized? (edited)
That is what I am saying. It is normal practice in EU.
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04:48
Many local WIFI providers do that.
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secretboy
Why not just leave the man alone, he spent the money on them, he can do what he wants with them, and reporting him for nothing, you really are a bad person my guy..
Whatever you say boss
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
More likely a few gigs a month. (edited)
Are 20-30gb/day even when relayed justifiable now just to keep up with blockchain?
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Up to you to decide that for yourself.
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Wolverine
It's common for mobile isp in Europe to use one public ip for number of their users. So you're saying is thay even if I do everything by the book I'm still being penalized? (edited)
For the current scheme you or I should ask this in #poc-discussion . AFAIK, the current PoC code will not target an IP more than once in a single hex. Not sure what happens if your IP is used with multiple hotspots in multiple hexes. I do not know how the validator-generated PoC targeting is going to handle multiple hotspots with a single IP.
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krby
For the current scheme you or I should ask this in #poc-discussion . AFAIK, the current PoC code will not target an IP more than once in a single hex. Not sure what happens if your IP is used with multiple hotspots in multiple hexes. I do not know how the validator-generated PoC targeting is going to handle multiple hotspots with a single IP.
It targets an IP address once per challenge interval (950 blocks). If it tries to challenge the same IP address twice, it fails. Finding an address that hasn't beaconed yet becomes harder and harder as the 950 block window nears the end, the most likely reason for the bad receipt-to-request rate near the end of the 950 block period.
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groot
It targets an IP address once per challenge interval (950 blocks). If it tries to challenge the same IP address twice, it fails. Finding an address that hasn't beaconed yet becomes harder and harder as the 950 block window nears the end, the most likely reason for the bad receipt-to-request rate near the end of the 950 block period.
Ahh, thanks. So I assume this will continue for Validator generated PoCs, so no change for those folks behind CGNAT type situations.
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Hard to say, I would assume so, but haven't looked into it yet.
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Wolverine
It's common for mobile isp in Europe to use one public ip for number of their users. So you're saying is thay even if I do everything by the book I'm still being penalized? (edited)
It's the same in Norway as well. It's a necessity due to the scarcity of IPv4-addresses, but most telcos here give the customers an option to change the APN to receive a public IP on their sim card.
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Tango
It's the same in Norway as well. It's a necessity due to the scarcity of IPv4-addresses, but most telcos here give the customers an option to change the APN to receive a public IP on their sim card.
In return Norway gives you one of the fastest mobile networks in the world (according to a opensignal report I skimmed today)
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groot
It targets an IP address once per challenge interval (950 blocks). If it tries to challenge the same IP address twice, it fails. Finding an address that hasn't beaconed yet becomes harder and harder as the 950 block window nears the end, the most likely reason for the bad receipt-to-request rate near the end of the 950 block period.
If it is as you write, many of HS on the shared public IPs might never get a chance to send own beacon. Very very unfair! And also giving a misleading information (feedback) to the Helium network. (edited)
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tezar
If it is as you write, many of HS on the shared public IPs might never get a chance to send own beacon. Very very unfair! And also giving a misleading information (feedback) to the Helium network. (edited)
How many without public ip do you know that are not relayed?
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groot
How many without public ip do you know that are not relayed?
after May 11th it will be irrelevant
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groot
It targets an IP address once per challenge interval (950 blocks). If it tries to challenge the same IP address twice, it fails. Finding an address that hasn't beaconed yet becomes harder and harder as the 950 block window nears the end, the most likely reason for the bad receipt-to-request rate near the end of the 950 block period.
This is interesting, but how can, I for an example, in that case be challenged three times in period of 14hrs? I understand you might get challenged twice if you were just at the very end of the 950block window so first challenge would fall in with end of first 950 block period and second with very beginning of second 950 block period. But how do you do three? 😄 Here's my example from yesterday, I threw one at 4am, then one at 5pm and another one at 6pm.
07:36
I'm not complaining, just curious 😄 (edited)
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tezar
after May 11th it will be irrelevant
Well, it might not be. You won't be relayed, but if Validators still filter public IP addresses then whoever is behind CGnat will have issues.. At least that's how I understand that situation.
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Wolverine
This is interesting, but how can, I for an example, in that case be challenged three times in period of 14hrs? I understand you might get challenged twice if you were just at the very end of the 950block window so first challenge would fall in with end of first 950 block period and second with very beginning of second 950 block period. But how do you do three? 😄 Here's my example from yesterday, I threw one at 4am, then one at 5pm and another one at 6pm.
Filter is maintained by each hotspot, not a 100% solution by a long shot.
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Wolverine
This is interesting, but how can, I for an example, in that case be challenged three times in period of 14hrs? I understand you might get challenged twice if you were just at the very end of the 950block window so first challenge would fall in with end of first 950 block period and second with very beginning of second 950 block period. But how do you do three? 😄 Here's my example from yesterday, I threw one at 4am, then one at 5pm and another one at 6pm.
I can't know for sure without looking at the transactions and checking the exact time, but the 4am one and the 5pm one were probably made at different windows. The 6pm one probably happened because the challenger created the challenge before the 5pm receipt went on-chain, so it didn't know your hotspot had already beaconed. Remember the poc receipt takes ~20min to show up on chain after the challengee has actually challenged. (edited)
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MRK么MAVERICK 05/03/2022 10:06 PM
2022.04.27.0 is it light hotspot firmware??
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MRK么MAVERICK
2022.04.27.0 is it light hotspot firmware??
For sensecap... Yea
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MRK么MAVERICK 05/03/2022 11:01 PM
@adityabanka thank you
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adityabanka
For sensecap... Yea
For all manufacturers not just Sensecap, it's a general update. However manufacturers may or may not do some adjustments for their system.
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About Nebra outdoor hotspot?
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Tim123
About Nebra outdoor hotspot?
Wrong channel, actually wrong discord. You should ask in the Nebra-specific discord, unless you have a problem with general setup or apps not specific to Nebra.
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Are we still on track for 5/11/22 for HIP 55 like the blog post mentions?
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Ernnt
Are we still on track for 5/11/22 for HIP 55 like the blog post mentions?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 10:41 AM
No news to the contrary so far 🤞
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No news to the contrary so far 🤞
And then HIP 54 to follow shortly after or are we set to wait months for that?
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Ernnt
And then HIP 54 to follow shortly after or are we set to wait months for that?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 10:46 AM
Not sure.
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Ernnt
Are we still on track for 5/11/22 for HIP 55 like the blog post mentions?
5th of November? I hope not.
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backtran
5th of November? I hope not.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/06/2022 8:19 AM
They used slashes, so has to be American norm haha
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backtran
5th of November? I hope not.
Lol 11th of May
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backtran
5th of November? I hope not.
The network wouldn’t last that long🤣
tinfoil 2
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Ernnt
Lol 11th of May
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:09 PM
No no... May 11th 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No no... May 11th 😉
Tim | LongAP 05/06/2022 2:23 PM
1652227200 (edited)
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Hello guys!!! Do we need vpn after releasing hip 55 if having 2 miners running on the same internet?
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czar
Hello guys!!! Do we need vpn after releasing hip 55 if having 2 miners running on the same internet?
No, only if they come up with some limit on ip address, you will be fine.
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secretboy
No, only if they come up with some limit on ip address, you will be fine.
So there'll be no more public IP filtering? That's nice, so cg-nat won't be an issue then anymore (edited)
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Wolverine
So there'll be no more public IP filtering? That's nice, so cg-nat won't be an issue then anymore (edited)
I'm also interested, as far as i understand, not possible because validators will challenging u by ip. It will work but only one miner will beacon (edited)
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The poc selection currently enforces one per ip per time period. No reason to think that will go away with validators.
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krby
The poc selection currently enforces one per ip per time period. No reason to think that will go away with validators.
Yes but there are mixed info running around about this subject as you can see above. That's why I ask is it gonna be continued or not. But no one has exact answers on that subject just assumptions. Kinda weird as it's all been running on testnet, Validators have their system set up and configured by now and it should all be live soon. Doubt no one still knows how challenges will be issued and enforced. (edited)
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Wolverine
Yes but there are mixed info running around about this subject as you can see above. That's why I ask is it gonna be continued or not. But no one has exact answers on that subject just assumptions. Kinda weird as it's all been running on testnet, Validators have their system set up and configured by now and it should all be live soon. Doubt no one still knows how challenges will be issued and enforced. (edited)
I think the core devs know for sure, but they're not working this weekend. The folks on Testnet do too, but I haven't been running on testnet. I have been sort of following the development of moving PoCs to validators and nothing I saw indicated the current IP filter per challenge period will go away. (edited)
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Wonder how it will work since currently it resets due to poc challenge interval. That variable isn’t doing anything with hip 55 so it must be something else. Haven’t spent the time to figure it out yet though.
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BlauerBrokkoli 05/08/2022 12:23 PM
I read about an update on 11 May, is this the Light Hotspot update, which was postponed in April? Sorry, was not online for a while. There are so many announcement channels etc. where would you look just to get the current news and roadmap? (edited)
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BlauerBrokkoli
I read about an update on 11 May, is this the Light Hotspot update, which was postponed in April? Sorry, was not online for a while. There are so many announcement channels etc. where would you look just to get the current news and roadmap? (edited)
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So, what happens if i have a dynamic ip, and i have different ip every 2 hour's? Why don't they use mac addresses? (edited)
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RDM
So, what happens if i have a dynamic ip, and i have different ip every 2 hour's? Why don't they use mac addresses? (edited)
So, what happens if i have a dinamic ip, and i have different ip every 2 hour's
It's really going to depend on the implementation. You should ask in #poc-discussion
Why don't they use mac addresses?
Of your hotspot or your router? For a filter? IIRC, the original goal of the 1-per-IP filter was to reduce the incentives to people hosting multiple hotspots at a single location. It's not perfect, of course, but using MAC addresses of the hotpot wouldn't achieve the same goal because they're...mostly globally unique.
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What you suggest should activate again my vpn? Or leave relayed Just for today?
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Monkey🐒
What you suggest should activate again my vpn? Or leave relayed Just for today?
I would leave yourself relayed and see how things look after 2020-05-11, but it is up to you. (edited)
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Countdown for the greatest update 🤓
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czar
Countdown for the greatest update 🤓
Yee, lets see it collapse :)
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let's keep it positive here
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T-23 hours
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what will happen with the challenges after this goes live?
02:33
will there still be 1 beacon every 36 hours?
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Pendraloth
will there still be 1 beacon every 36 hours?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/10/2022 2:41 AM
Cokes explained how the rollout works in #announcements
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Cokes explained how the rollout works in #announcements
I saw it but not sure what it means
03:17
800 challenges per block
03:17
what will the interval for a beacon be in this case?
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Pendraloth
what will the interval for a beacon be in this case?
You can easily do the math. Each block takes approximately 1 min. 800 challenges per block 800k hotspots in the network
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so it's basically the same as it is right now
03:45
1 beacon every 16 hours
03:45
if the challenges will not fail anymore
03:45
because now they are failing 50% of the time
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Pendraloth
1 beacon every 16 hours
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/10/2022 3:48 AM
You are comparing poc_challenge_rate with poc_challege_interval. They are not the same (edited)
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03:48
This is our current poc_rate
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so receipt count are the actual successful beacons, right?
03:49
it's a bit over 200 right now?
03:50
so if everything goes well with light hotspots, there will be a 4x increase? (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You are comparing poc_challenge_rate with poc_challege_interval. They are not the same (edited)
Both undefined? Troll miner eval blockchain_ledger_v1:config(<<"poc_interval">>, blockchain:ledger(blockchain_worker:blockchain())). {error, not_found} miner eval blockchain_ledger_v1:config(<<"poc_rate">>, blockchain:ledger(blockchain_worker:blockchain())). {error, not_found}
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groot
Both undefined? Troll miner eval blockchain_ledger_v1:config(<<"poc_interval">>, blockchain:ledger(blockchain_worker:blockchain())). {error, not_found} miner eval blockchain_ledger_v1:config(<<"poc_rate">>, blockchain:ledger(blockchain_worker:blockchain())). {error, not_found}
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/10/2022 3:51 AM
Don't do me dirty 🥲
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Don't do me dirty 🥲
I'll give you a hint: miner eval blockchain_ledger_v1:config(<<"poc_challenge_interval">>, blockchain:ledger(blockchain_worker:blockchain())). {ok, 950}
03:52
You're German after all, you like long words and stuff Troll
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groot
You're German after all, you like long words and stuff Troll
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/10/2022 3:52 AM
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Click to see attachment 🖼️
No worries, everyone understands what you mean
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Deleted User 05/10/2022 7:16 AM
Is the slowdown happening as we speak?
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Deleted User
Is the slowdown happening as we speak?
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Been quiet on the anmouncements, what is the ETA?
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have you read #announcements
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cokes
have you read #announcements
Deleted User 05/10/2022 12:27 PM
Yes…No ETA there…Or I am really missing it
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it's "tomorrow"
12:30
i know everyone's eager 🙂
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cokes
it's "tomorrow"
Deleted User 05/10/2022 12:35 PM
In Australia and Asia is already tomorrow
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we're based in the states, our tomorrow isn't here yet
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Deleted User
Yes…No ETA there…Or I am really missing it
There is
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Wolverine
There is
Deleted User 05/10/2022 12:37 PM
That’s the update deadline for manufacturers…
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Also when it comes online
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Angry Pickle Bear 05/10/2022 12:45 PM
Just because the homework is due at midnight doesn't mean your teacher starts grading at 1 AM in the morning.
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Angry Pickle Bear
Just because the homework is due at midnight doesn't mean your teacher starts grading at 1 AM in the morning.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 12:49 PM
00:00:01
12:51
PDT 😉
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Angry Pickle Bear
Just because the homework is due at midnight doesn't mean your teacher starts grading at 1 AM in the morning.
I had this professor that put all his deadlines at friday 17:00 instead of the usual sunday 23:59; his reasoning: you guys are not going to finish until the deadline anyway so I can just as well put it somewhere that you guys actually have a weekend. Nice guy.
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groot
I had this professor that put all his deadlines at friday 17:00 instead of the usual sunday 23:59; his reasoning: you guys are not going to finish until the deadline anyway so I can just as well put it somewhere that you guys actually have a weekend. Nice guy.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 12:54 PM
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Well honestly I couldn't care less about exact time of launch as long as it actually happens this time. 🤣
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2 more hours left🚀🚀
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czar
2 more hours left🚀🚀
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 2:58 PM
Ummm... PDT my friend...
14:58
It's 3pm on Tuesday here
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activation is NOT happening at midnight folks. setting expectations.
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amirtime 1
14:59
the team is going to gather in the morning, west coast time.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:00 PM
I feel like people have this idea that at the stroke of midnight, their hotspots will transform and start glowing or something. lol
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Who could've figured that out 🙄
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this is not reverse cinderella
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:01 PM
bibby bobbity boo!
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Yeah I don't understand it, why not push straight to production and go on vacation? /s
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groot
Yeah I don't understand it, why not push straight to production and go on vacation? /s
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:02 PM
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Tim | LongAP 05/10/2022 11:20 PM
So what's the actual roadmap for light hotspots and what's being done today? 1: Move challenging to validators (removing the need for port-forwarding from hotspots) -> done today 2: Stop following/syncing the blockchain on hotspots (reducing data-consumption) -> not done today 3: Allow for "real" light hotspots running only gateway-rs -> not done today. Is this right?
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Tim | LongAP
So what's the actual roadmap for light hotspots and what's being done today? 1: Move challenging to validators (removing the need for port-forwarding from hotspots) -> done today 2: Stop following/syncing the blockchain on hotspots (reducing data-consumption) -> not done today 3: Allow for "real" light hotspots running only gateway-rs -> not done today. Is this right?
Yes thats what i have understood also
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Tim | LongAP
So what's the actual roadmap for light hotspots and what's being done today? 1: Move challenging to validators (removing the need for port-forwarding from hotspots) -> done today 2: Stop following/syncing the blockchain on hotspots (reducing data-consumption) -> not done today 3: Allow for "real" light hotspots running only gateway-rs -> not done today. Is this right?
https://blog.helium.com/light-hotspots-explained-everything-you-need-to-know-f86612f571c6
On May 11, we will activate the chain variables that “wakes up” the Rust-based miner. This will switch off the Erlang-based miner. At this point, Hotspots will not follow the chain but still has Erlang code, in case we need to fall back to it.
(edited)
You’re a Hotspot owner and you keep hearing the term Light Hotspots, but you still don’t know what it all means.
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ricopt5
https://blog.helium.com/light-hotspots-explained-everything-you-need-to-know-f86612f571c6
On May 11, we will activate the chain variables that “wakes up” the Rust-based miner. This will switch off the Erlang-based miner. At this point, Hotspots will not follow the chain but still has Erlang code, in case we need to fall back to it.
(edited)
Tim | LongAP 05/11/2022 3:05 AM
Yes I can read that, but that doesn't align with what is in the code and in the latest announcement. Basically I don't think that blog post is accurate.
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Tim | LongAP
Yes I can read that, but that doesn't align with what is in the code and in the latest announcement. Basically I don't think that blog post is accurate.
Oh, ok. Yeah, the announcement says Note that at this time, all Hotspots will still sync the blockchain and we do not expect bandwidth requirements to lower immediately post-activation.
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ETA?
06:38
2 hours ? 😄
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Pendraloth
2 hours ? 😄
NL_Miniterror_NL 05/11/2022 6:42 AM
They will start then, do some work and checks
06:42
Dint think the switch actually happens at the hour exactly
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Hope there will be no bugs that delay it even more
06:43
🚀
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So quiet here. was expecting everybody counting down like before a NFT mint
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thestephse
So quiet here. was expecting everybody counting down like before a NFT mint
nft mint, think you in the wrong server
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40 minutes left
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Update after 30 minutes? (edited)
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Iron man
Update after 30 minutes? (edited)
Team will gather in 30 minutes, check if everything is ok and then start the change
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Looking forward to the update.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/11/2022 7:39 AM
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10mins to go....
07:49
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it's not going to activate in 10 minutes. we'll make an announcement when it's out
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I get that point. But can't control the excitement 🐱
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me too!
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Ok, lets see, grab popcorn guys
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cokes
it's not going to activate in 10 minutes. we'll make an announcement when it's out
Then please write the Block number that activates variable so we can check whether miners got that Block ot not 🙏
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i will! happy your'e so excited. it's not activated yet
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NL_Miniterror_NL 05/11/2022 8:11 AM
Might have been easier if you said one hour later and actually done the checks and stuff in advance to save you from these posts😂
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i never said when the activation time was, now did i
08:12
🙂
08:13
anyways, gotta go. dont tag me please.
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ZombieFerrets 05/11/2022 8:40 AM
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Eagerly waiting for something to pop-up in #announcements section
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adityap27
Eagerly waiting for something to pop-up in #announcements section
Just did at the same time you posted this 😅
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ZombieFerrets 05/11/2022 8:45 AM
yay!, where lambo?
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Tim | LongAP 05/11/2022 8:50 AM
Woop: 2022-05-11 15:48:00.181 1 [info] <0.31202.1>@miner_poc_grpc_client_statem:setup:{201,13} *** connecting to validator with ip: "xxx", port: 8080, addr: "/p2p/xxx"
partyparrot 3
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@miner_poc_grpc_client_statem:find_validator:{438,21} request to validator failed: {error,req_failed} (edited)
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post in #blockchain-development please
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Still relayed?
09:23
Is the update not completed yet?
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what is the block number?
09:26
after my hotspot gets to that block, it can mine even if out of sync, right?
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Pendraloth
what is the block number?
#announcements
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On what block height they’ll start?
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Helium Explorer is a Block Explorer and Analytics Platform for Helium, a decentralized wireless connectivity platform
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Pendraloth
after my hotspot gets to that block, it can mine even if out of sync, right?
True
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1350664
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i hope my lazy hotspots reach that block today 😄
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czar
On what block height they’ll start?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:28 AM
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Mine reach 1350710 and still counting 🤣🤣🤣
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we're going to issue a snapshot after a few hundred blocks and then most hotspots should be able to pick that one up
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will they load the snapshot right away or do they need a restart first?
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hashc0de
we're going to issue a snapshot after a few hundred blocks and then most hotspots should be able to pick that one up
👍🏻
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This HIP has been approved, and deployed. I'm going to archive this channel to make room for new HIPs! Any future feedback on HIP55 should be directed to other channels or to the original GitHub issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/362
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